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Psychadelics And Entheogens?


Connor776

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Hi I am new to this discussion board but I have been spending a lot of time recently researching psychoactive substances and their effect on consciousness. 

 

With that out of the way I would like to give a brief description and background of myself. I am 18 years old and currently a student at BYU-Hawaii where I study Computer Science. I am currently trying to explore for myself if I am going to serve a two year mission For the Church. I love the ideas of peace and happiness that I find in its doctrine.

 

Now, over the past few days I have become interested in the psychology and uses of psychoactive substances. Specifically how they can be used responsibly and what can be learned from them. While I was researching one specific substance, known as Dimethyltryptamine or DMT for short, and began reading the account of the experiences or 'trips' that people had while using DMT. 

 

Just as a quick history on DMT for those of you whom may not know what this substance is: DMT is a hallucinogenic compound. DMT is found in trace amounts in the human body as well as most plants and animals if not all. DMT was first synthesized in 1931 but has been used amazonian natives for a much longer time.

 

Anyways, in some of these 'trips' that people were having there were descriptions of 'Holy Entities' or even angels as some described them. There was also a word used by one of the individuals they were interviewing. He said that he saw intelligences. Here is where I am beginning to get interested. I had a very interesting sunday school teacher in high school. We had the most intense discussions about the most profound topics I have ever had in my life. One thing That he talked about a few times was experiences people have had in "near death" or even "Dying". One specific time he shared a story about a man who went into a spirit "place" and talked to Heavenly Father. Although this man is not a member of the church it sounds very similar to the way that God and the plan seems to be describe in our church. 

 

Now, I could go on about these stories for several pages but Thats not what I want to do here. I want to find more information about Joseph Smith and evidence of either using or not using psychedelics such as these two or others: "Datura" and "Shrooms". 

 

Thank you for reading this post and know that I am genuinely interested in this topic and am trying to gain a better understanding of my conciousness

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 I want to find more information about Joseph Smith and evidence of either using or not using psychedelics such as these two or others: "Datura" and "Shrooms". 

 

 

How can you find evidence of not using?  That's sort of like me trying to prove that I've never been to Cleveland.

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As someone who uses entheogenic plants in my spiritual practices, and who has read materials suggesting that Joseph Smith used them, I don't believe that the connection is supported by the historical data.  

 

As far as how the use of psychoactive substances fits into the modern LDS faith.... it's pretty clear cut.  The only psychoactive substances allowed are those recently developed by scientists and dispensed by medical professionals.  Entheogenic plants, despite having thousands of years of historical use and application in the spiritual lives and practices of many people, are strictly forbidden.

 

If you desire to incorporate these tools into your spiritual practice, you will need to find a country that truly believes in religious freedom, or risk imprisonment, confiscation of property and goods, job termination, fines, and in some cases, the loss of parental rights.  If you are of a certain race or heritage you may be able to use certain entheogens legally in the US, but otherwise you'll likely be committing serious crimes for your spiritual or religious practices.

 

If instead, you're interested in influencing laws in the US regarding your religious rights in this regard, you could always contact the folks at 'Protect Religious Liberty' http://protectreligiousliberty.com/.  They encourage folks to submit guest articles, and these concerns sound like would be right up their alley.  You could also become a member of the LDS facebook page https://www.facebook.com/SupportReligiousFreedom.  I imagine you could find some support there among other people looking to maintain freedom for traditional religious practices and beliefs.  I believe that both of these groups wish to support religious freedom for all.

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How can you find evidence of not using?  That's sort of like me trying to prove that I've never been to Cleveland.

This is a good point when I wrote that I more meant to find a connection between these compounds and what they create. I didnt mean disprove sorry, but rather if there is any proof?

 

 

There is no evidence that JS used hallucinogens.

I am not trying to claim that he did. However, visions and such were seen when Joseph Smith was alive but they ceased when he died. I also think it is noteworthy that the accounts of angels and visions sound a awful lot like an LSD, DMT, or Ayahuasca 'trip'

 

As someone who uses entheogenic plants in my spiritual practices, and who has read materials suggesting that Joseph Smith used them, I don't believe that the connection is supported by the historical data.  

 

As far as how the use of psychoactive substances fits into the modern LDS faith.... it's pretty clear cut.  The only psychoactive substances allowed are those recently developed by scientists and dispensed by medical professionals.  Entheogenic plants, despite having thousands of years of historical use and application in the spiritual lives and practices of many people, are strictly forbidden.

 

If you desire to incorporate these tools into your spiritual practice, you will need to find a country that truly believes in religious freedom, or risk imprisonment, confiscation of property and goods, job termination, fines, and in some cases, the loss of parental rights.  If you are of a certain race or heritage you may be able to use certain entheogens legally in the US, but otherwise you'll likely be committing serious crimes for your spiritual or religious practices.

 

If instead, you're interested in influencing laws in the US regarding your religious rights in this regard, you could always contact the folks at 'Protect Religious Liberty' http://protectreligiousliberty.com/.  They encourage folks to submit guest articles, and these concerns sound like would be right up their alley.  You could also become a member of the LDS facebook page https://www.facebook.com/SupportReligiousFreedom.  I imagine you could find some support there among other people looking to maintain freedom for traditional religious practices and beliefs.  I believe that both of these groups wish to support religious freedom for all.

cacheman - Thank you very much for this information. I think that these tools are something that I would like to investigate further. If you dont mind me asking what tools have you used and what have you found? I understand these are very personal findings and I respect if you would rather not share. 

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I wrote to FairLDS before it became FairMormon, a few years ago.  They couldn't say whether he did or didn't.  So there is no clear cut answer to it.  Sunstone had an article about it, if you would like to check for it on their website.  I think I paid $2.00 to be able to download the paper, it was on an older computer, and I didn't think to print it out.  Maybe it's free now, don't know. 

 

In my heart of hearts, I believe he may have used it and may have helped others get the spiritual experience through Datura and adding it to wine, but this is my opinion!!  He knew an individual named Black Pete who may have helped supply something.  I know that many people, even in this day and age, use Peyote and really feel it helps them in their spiritual lives.  It has a bad name, but it very well could have been planted on this earth to help individuals that struggle to have a witness. 

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They couldn't say whether he did or didn't. 

 

But I suspect anyone who answered also said there was no evidence for it.

 

There is nothing in the behaviour of JS save for the visions themselves that would indicate drug use.  And to say that he must have been using drugs because of the visions is begging the question, I believe…or it could be circular reasoning.  Too lazy to figure out which...

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He knew an individual named Black Pete who may have helped supply something

 

Please show that Black Pete had any association with Joseph around the time of the First Vision and other early spiritual experiences.

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Please show that Black Pete had any association with Joseph around the time of the First Vision and other early spiritual experiences.

It was in the article by Robert T. Beckstead. I'm on my phone, but a search should bring something quickly. I don't want to link anything anti Mormon.

Btw, I really regret responding because this goes nowhere fast. But will never understand why some of the leaders acted so strangely during Sacrament meetings and the dedication of the Kirtland temple, unless they were drinking tainted wine.

Edited by Tacenda
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I would like to see the quote and the evidence for that dating.

My understanding is that Peter Kerr was an associate of Sidney Rigdon and that Joseph did not meet him until he came out to Kirtland where Kerr lived.

Edited by calmoriah
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I would like to see the quote and the evidence for that dating.

My understanding is that Peter Kerr was an associate of Sidney Rigdon and that Joseph did not meet him until he came out to Kirtland where Kerr lived.

I'm so glad you gave Pete a full name, thank you. I only saw it mentioned in the Beckstead article. I guess around that time it was a big deal to get revelations and visions. This also was in the article.
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When you get a chance, you can find the article and list the evidence that JS knew Peter Kerr. Haven't seen any yet myself. Is there any indictation that Joseph Smith was ever in Fallowfield?

While Peter Kerr sounds more respectful to our ear, the fact is Kerr was his owner's name and he dropped it when he was freed and became known as Black Pete so I think I will call him that since that was what he chose for himself.

Pete became associated with Rigdon in 1820 after having moved with the Kerrs (as a free man) to Ohio and therefore would have been in Ohio from that timeso when and where would he have encountered JS before 1830?

http://mormonheretic.org/2012/01/16/the-first-black-mormon-leader-pete/

Edited by calmoriah
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Hi I am new to this discussion board but I have been spending a lot of time recently researching psychoactive substances and their effect on consciousness. 

 

With that out of the way I would like to give a brief description and background of myself. I am 18 years old and currently a student at BYU-Hawaii where I study Computer Science. I am currently trying to explore for myself if I am going to serve a two year mission For the Church. I love the ideas of peace and happiness that I find in its doctrine.

 

Now, over the past few days I have become interested in the psychology and uses of psychoactive substances. Specifically how they can be used responsibly and what can be learned from them. While I was researching one specific substance, known as Dimethyltryptamine or DMT for short, and began reading the account of the experiences or 'trips' that people had while using DMT. 

 

Just as a quick history on DMT for those of you whom may not know what this substance is: DMT is a hallucinogenic compound. DMT is found in trace amounts in the human body as well as most plants and animals if not all. DMT was first synthesized in 1931 but has been used amazonian natives for a much longer time.

 

Anyways, in some of these 'trips' that people were having there were descriptions of 'Holy Entities' or even angels as some described them. There was also a word used by one of the individuals they were interviewing. He said that he saw intelligences. Here is where I am beginning to get interested. I had a very interesting sunday school teacher in high school. We had the most intense discussions about the most profound topics I have ever had in my life. One thing That he talked about a few times was experiences people have had in "near death" or even "Dying". One specific time he shared a story about a man who went into a spirit "place" and talked to Heavenly Father. Although this man is not a member of the church it sounds very similar to the way that God and the plan seems to be describe in our church. 

 

Now, I could go on about these stories for several pages but Thats not what I want to do here. I want to find more information about Joseph Smith and evidence of either using or not using psychedelics such as these two or others: "Datura" and "Shrooms". 

 

Thank you for reading this post and know that I am genuinely interested in this topic and am trying to gain a better understanding of my conciousness

Who knows? I knew two different men who dropped acid, (not together, they didn't know each other) and had spectacular visions. One saw angels, the other didn't, but both saw a heaven with three tiers, or "worlds", as one of them put it. Neither men were Mormons, or knew anything about Mormons, but one of them later became a Mormon after he married one. Weird stuff  :). Also, I have lots of friends who "found God" while high

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We don't have any teachings regarding drug use and spiritual experience. We teach that spiritual experiences are most properly the result of prayer, fasting, contemplation, and studying the scripture. Scripture supports these activities and it is all we have to teach others.

 

There are always those who seek after alternative ways of getting to the God and the Holy Spirit.  They either re-create history to support their objective or simply pursue alternative paths independently.  Though I believe in moderation in all things; my moderation does not include drug use as a means to supply spiritual experiences. 

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I am not trying to claim that he did. However, visions and such were seen when Joseph Smith was alive but they ceased when he died.I

 

 

What about (for example) Joseph F. Smith's vision of the redemption of the dead and Wilford

Woodruff's reference to a "vision and revelation" he received re. ceasing plural marriage?

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This is a good point when I wrote that I more meant to find a connection between these compounds and what they create. I didnt mean disprove sorry, but rather if there is any proof?

 

 

I am not trying to claim that he did. However, visions and such were seen when Joseph Smith was alive but they ceased when he died. I also think it is noteworthy that the accounts of angels and visions sound a awful lot like an LSD, DMT, or Ayahuasca 'trip'

 

cacheman - Thank you very much for this information. I think that these tools are something that I would like to investigate further. If you dont mind me asking what tools have you used and what have you found? I understand these are very personal findings and I respect if you would rather not share. 

 

JS had the unique role in establishing the Church. So I expect more from him than subsequent prophets. But that is not to say visions have stopped. Just their nature, of necessity, has changed. I've never experienced a LSD, DMT, or Ayahuasca trip. But I has witnessed other people on them. Far too many thought they could jump out of tall buildings and fly like a bird, or thought those were pretty blue flowers on the gas stove.

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