Fixation On Islam

[EllenMaksoud]

Or it could be obsessiveness about any system that would put rigid boundaries around the limits of a person's conduct. 66% of White American Women that convert to Islam do not last in the faith, though I do not know how soon they usually de-convert. I lasted 7 years, and still feel fixated by it. A friend lasted 2 years, including a trip to Jordan.  Islamic culture is difficult for anyone who does not speak Arabic and is not inured to that culture and often leads to failure. The worst part is that a Woman who has a child with a Muslim man in another country, or even America risks losing that child to the man, especially a boy, should the marriage fail and he kidnap the child and return home to his foreign country. I have seen this happen at least 4 times with various outcomes.

 

It seems as though very controlling religious systems and company cultures could cause the same phenomenon as Islam. Perhaps a woman or a man could experience similar feelings in an abusive marriage?

 

Though some would disagree, it seems that the LDS culture is the least controlling of any system I have experienced, of course that could differ from Ward to Ward, and Family to Family. I experienced feelings of relief when I realized I did not have to think a certain way any longer when the 4 Square Evangelicals threw me out, though did not have the same feelings upon exit from Islam. Though, with the LDS I went from bleak obedience to love and care, so "withdrawal" was not an issue, though I do not know if I will ever be free from the irrational feeling feelings of longing for my hijab.

 

It is really interesting to speak to individuals who break free of a system they view as abusive whether it be a religious system, an employment culture or an abusive family.

[theplains]

It is really interesting to speak to individuals who break free of a system they view as abusive whether it be a religious system, an employment culture or an abusive family.

 

I have heard that some Mormons view the LDS system as abusive, break free from it, but then

are viewed as apostates.  Others lose their faith entirely (throw the baby out with the bath

water), or turn with hate against the LDS Church, or grow more in a relationship with Jesus

Christ.  It depends on the individual.  If you were unfortunate enough to be a Jehovah's

Witness and you left that faith, you would most likely lose your family and friends. Hopefully

you still have some Muslim friends (or Evangelical friends) that still respect you enough to

talk or hang around with you after you became a Latter-day Saint.

 

If you really want to see some depressing experiences of women who have been abused,

see "Lifting the Veil of Polygamy" on youtube. It also discusses who follows the teachings

of Joseph Smith more closely.  Obviously it is debatable amongst various Mormon sects.

 

Regards,

Jim

[saemo]

though I do not know if I will ever be free from the irrational feeling feelings of longing for my hijab.

 

I think the hijab is a beautiful practice, when done freely and not via coercion.

[EllenMaksoud]

I have heard that some Mormons view the LDS system as abusive, break free from it, but then

are viewed as apostates.  Others lose their faith entirely (throw the baby out with the bath

water), or turn with hate against the LDS Church, or grow more in a relationship with Jesus

Christ.  It depends on the individual.  If you were unfortunate enough to be a Jehovah's

Witness and you left that faith, you would most likely lose your family and friends. Hopefully

you still have some Muslim friends (or Evangelical friends) that still respect you enough to

talk or hang around with you after you became a Latter-day Saint.

 

If you really want to see some depressing experiences of women who have been abused,

see "Lifting the Veil of Polygamy" on youtube. It also discusses who follows the teachings

of Joseph Smith more closely.  Obviously it is debatable amongst various Mormon sects.

 

Regards,

Jim

I actually believe in polygamy in certain narrow circumstances, though until we have an near extermination event on Earth, they won't be narrow enough.  The conditions that Joseph Smith set up were nothing but pure cohersion and in reading his works outside the BOM I sometimes wonder if he was Bipolar of BPD. Still I believe that the church that he started IS used by Heavenly Father. At my Ward level they do about as well at practicing the calling of Jesus Christ as anyone I have ever encountered. As to the higher church leadership, they are sorting through some staggering issues and I feel thankful that it is they and not me.

 

I've talked to some very angry X-Mormons, and I hope and pray that I never have some of their experiences. Still, I had the same sort of experiences in my old Evangelical church, and when I left it, I swore that I would never have anything to do with the Jesus bunch again. There are a couple churches that are only standing because my Amyigdala functions very well.

[EllenMaksoud]

I think the hijab is a beautiful practice, when done freely and not via coercion.

I keep trying to promote the idea of Mormon Nuns but it is a long road.

[saemo]

I keep trying to promote the idea of Mormon Nuns but it is a long road.

 

Two of my friends who are converts to Catholicism wanted to join religious orders. They won't take a woman past a certain age. It is a huge life-change, and experience has shown that us old ladies find the transition too difficult. :|

Edited February 14, 2014 by saemo

[EllenMaksoud]

I have heard that some Mormons view the LDS system as abusive, break free from it, but then

are viewed as apostates.  Others lose their faith entirely (throw the baby out with the bath

water), or turn with hate against the LDS Church, or grow more in a relationship with Jesus

Christ.  It depends on the individual.  If you were unfortunate enough to be a Jehovah's

Witness and you left that faith, you would most likely lose your family and friends. Hopefully

you still have some Muslim friends (or Evangelical friends) that still respect you enough to

talk or hang around with you after you became a Latter-day Saint.

 

If you really want to see some depressing experiences of women who have been abused,

see "Lifting the Veil of Polygamy" on youtube. It also discusses who follows the teachings

of Joseph Smith more closely.  Obviously it is debatable amongst various Mormon sects.

 

Regards,

Jim

So, I was taking my time, writing out a thoughtful reply as I watched the video and suddenly all I had written was gone. I suppose the cache on the web site timed out or some such nonsense. L

 

This has changed my mind about polygamy. That the makers of the video would take on the SLC Mormons reflects badly on them; a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, actually. I was badly abused by the Evangelical church, so I suppose it depends upon one’s own experience and point of view. The SLC General Authority is slow to understand certain things, but at least they are presently listening without open condemnation.

 

We know that circumstances existed in BC times where there was the practice of polygamy, though I do not get a feel for the consequences, except in where Paul says, “The husband of one wife” in the NT. The book of Jacob roundly condemns the practice, so how JS somehow decided it was a good idea I do not understand. Emma says it did not happen, so what was going on there?

 

Some powerful figures in history were bipolar or even Schitzoid. Was that what happened to JS? We’ll never know.

We want to see the SLC Mormon church as a monolith, but it is not at all. And the idea that variation of thought within the church can happen is a powerful testimony to me.

 

I don’t believe some of what is taught, but I know that I will stand before Heavenly Father having tried as hard as I could.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Two of my friends who are converts to Catholicism wanted to join religious orders. They won't take a woman past a certain age. It is a huge life-change, and experience has shown that us old ladies find the transition too difficult. :|

If I may, why women and what is the age?

[saemo]

If I may, why women and what is the age?

I addressed only nuns. Every religious community is different. Most, for men and women, accept people in the 25-40 year range, but will consider younger or older on a case by case basis. For one of my friends, it was a serious health issue that prevented her from being accepted. For the other, she had a very specific religious order that she wanted to join and they considered her age as too old (nearly 60).

There are hundreds of religious communities in the U.S. Even when you are accepted you spend a year with the community discerning whether or not it the place that God is really calling you to. It is a discernment of the individual and the community. A person can move to several communities before discerning they have found the one where God wants them to be.

Another friend spent a year with the Carmelites, and discerned that was not the life for her. She is now happily married. (Marriage is viewed as a vocation in Catholicism, as well as religious life or priesthood.)

There are many single people who choose to be single, and live a "monks life" outside of a monastery. Meaning, they are celibate and live a life devoted to God.

Hope that helps.

Edited February 16, 2014 by saemo

[telnetd]

Or it could be obsessiveness about any system that would put rigid boundaries around the limits of a person's conduct. 66% of White American Women that convert to Islam do not last in the faith, though I do not know how soon they usually de-convert. I lasted 7 years, and still feel fixated by it. A friend lasted 2 years, including a trip to Jordan.  Islamic culture is difficult for anyone who does not speak Arabic and is not inured to that culture and often leads to failure. 

Though some would disagree, it seems that the L

 

Though, with the LDS I went from bleak obedience to love and care, so "withdrawal" was not an issue, though I do not know if I will ever be free from the irrational feeling feelings of longing for my hijab.

 

Is failure to understand Arabic an obstacle to really understanding the Quran for most

Muslims?  

 

In some cultures (American, European, etc) where Islamic tradition is more stringent

(since hijab is not mentioned in the Quran), the emphasis is more on the woman

wearing the hijab and nothing really equivalent for the man to wear.  Is this because

Muslim women are totally capable of not viewing men with sexual desire?

 

Gail

[EllenMaksoud]

Is failure to understand Arabic an obstacle to really understanding the Quran for most

Muslims?  

 

In some cultures (American, European, etc) where Islamic tradition is more stringent

(since hijab is not mentioned in the Quran), the emphasis is more on the woman

wearing the hijab and nothing really equivalent for the man to wear.  Is this because

Muslim women are totally capable of not viewing men with sexual desire?

 

Gail

Actually, most Muslims speak at least some Arabic, even the "Persian" Shia Muslims who actually speak Persian, also understand Modern Arabic. However the Qur'an is written in classical Arabic that is not spoken today. So Muslims will tell you that any English version is an interpretation of what the Arabic says, and no one agrees as to exactly what the Arabic says, though most Muslims I met preferred the Yusuf Ali version. The Qur'an was never translated multiple times like the Bible but scholars still argue about what it says.

 

Surah 4:34 is a good case in point. In it, the man is the boss full stop, and that section goes into what sorts of inducements that the man can offer a disobedient wife, with the last being that he can beat her. There is wide agreement today as to whether an man can hit the wife or not. At one extreme, the man can only tap the wife with a pencil sized stick, and in others the man can beat her but is not to do permanent injury. Yalllah  !!!

 

Muslims rely on their Imam to interpret the Qur'an.

 

In my opinion, the most devout and devoted Muslims are in America, because religion is largely voluntary here unless you are Muslim or Catholic. But family presures being what they are, even in America we are often forced to conform. In Muslim countries, there is no choice, you are Muslim and to try to not be can easilly get you killed.

 

As to the Hijab, Women are often thrown into prison or stoned or beheaded for not wearing Hijab in other countries. Men are to observe the practice of Hijab but since we have the social status of cows, the men pretty much do as they wish unless in KSA. Yes, Hijab is not in the Qur'an, but there are Fatwas and Hadeeths, which for the purpose of discussion can be seen like the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, and the messages of the Prophet.

 

Lust is a part of being human. I am having computer issues, so will have to finish this later.

Edited February 16, 2014 by EllenMaksoud

[calebjones]

Here's a 2000 Ensign Article on LDS and Islam:

 

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-latter-day-saint-perspective-on-muhammad

[savedbygrace]

I keep trying to promote the idea of Mormon Nuns but it is a long road.

In the Catholic church it is possible for lay people to be consecrated to a religious order, they are known as Third Orders or secular orders. In the Carmelites for example after a period of discernment and formation do actually make promises to.continue to follow Carmelite spirituality. These lay people are not all single, and they can be both sexes, maybe in time something similar might develop in the LDS church. But it might not happen as you do not have religious or monastic orders.

[savedbygrace]

So, I was taking my time, writing out a thoughtful reply as I watched the video and suddenly all I had written was gone. I suppose the cache on the web site timed out or some such nonsense. L

 

This has changed my mind about polygamy. That the makers of the video would take on the SLC Mormons reflects badly on them; a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, actually. I was badly abused by the Evangelical church, so I suppose it depends upon one’s own experience and point of view. The SLC General Authority is slow to understand certain things, but at least they are presently listening without open condemnation.

 

We know that circumstances existed in BC times where there was the practice of polygamy, though I do not get a feel for the consequences, except in where Paul says, “The husband of one wife” in the NT. The book of Jacob roundly condemns the practice, so how JS somehow decided it was a good idea I do not understand. Emma says it did not happen, so what was going on there?

 

Some powerful figures in history were bipolar or even Schitzoid. Was that what happened to JS? We’ll never know.

We want to see the SLC Mormon church as a monolith, but it is not at all. And the idea that variation of thought within the church can happen is a powerful testimony to me.

 

I don’t believe some of what is taught, but I know that I will stand before Heavenly Father having tried as hard as I could.

Polygamy only started in the world after man's fall from grace, before that God set the standard in the example of Adam and Eve becoming one flesh, which was reiterated by Christ. In the perfect world that God wished for man there would have been no polygamy, it started after we sinned, it was not instituted by God

[Tacenda]

Polygamy only started in the world after man's fall from grace, before that God set the standard in the example of Adam and Eve becoming one flesh, which was reiterated by Christ. In the perfect world that God wished for man there would have been no polygamy, it started after we sinned, it was not instituted by God

[EllenMaksoud]

Polygamy only started in the world after man's fall from grace, before that God set the standard in the example of Adam and Eve becoming one flesh, which was reiterated by Christ. In the perfect world that God wished for man there would have been no polygamy, it started after we sinned, it was not instituted by God

I can influence no one's morality but mine. That there are worse offenses toward God than polygamy, I am sure. After reading the book of Jacob, it is hard for me to see God's permitting it. At my age, with my mortality coming at me like a ravening banshee, it will not affect me.

[savedbygrace]

The problem with polygamy is that it is offensive to God, and as has been evidenced by some women who have experienced it, it has brought misery, and diminished women

[jana at jade house]

 

Polygamy only started in the world after man's fall from grace, before that God set the standard in the example of Adam and Eve becoming one flesh, which was reiterated by Christ. In the perfect world that God wished for man there would have been no polygamy, it started after we sinned, it was not instituted by God

 

Where have you found scholarly support for this?   

[jana at jade house]

 

The problem with polygamy is that it is offensive to God, and as has been evidenced by some women who have experienced it, it has brought misery, and diminished women

 

so does forced marriage, so does abusive marriage, so do many marriages between one man and woman.  The issue of misery devolves upon attitude and behaviour, not number of wives.  ANY marriage that is not is the plan of God is offensive to Him.  

[Garden Girl]

We know that circumstances existed in BC times where there was the practice of polygamy, though I do not get a feel for the consequences, except in where Paul says, “The husband of one wife” in the NT. The book of Jacob roundly condemns the practice, so how JS somehow decided it was a good idea I do not understand. Emma says it did not happen, so what was going on there?

 

 

Ellen...

 

I suggest you read the book of Jacob a little more carefully... many miss a critical distinction...

 

Jacob 2:24... Behold David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord...

25... Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. 

26.  Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

27.  Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28.  For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women.  And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. 

29.  Wherefore, this people, shall keep my commandments, said the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

30.  For if I will, saith the Lord of hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; OTHERWISE they shall hearken unto these things.

 

 

Joseph Smith was commanded by the Lord in the matter of polygamy... therefore it was not an abomination... this does not mean it was not controversial and was condemned by those outside our faith, and some within the faith. 

But Joseph didn't just "somehow decide it was a good idea." 

 

GG

[jana at jade house]

The magical thinking that polygyny was a later evolved practice which in all cases was an abomination sort of ignores biblical population growth and density.  Also ignored is the fact that  early pairings had to be between brother and sister as well if the world was going to have enough population to amount to anything.  I wish modern folks would get off their modern high horses and use their brains.  Of course some of the wives that David and Solomon had were an abomination- they came from the wrong tribes/were not faithful to the One God-   and they were not sanctioned.  God's main purpose is to bring forth  the Plan of Salvation for all His children.  Sometimes that includes extraordinary measures but only when He ordains it..