A Theory Of Lds Evolution (Add Yours Here)

[thesometimesaint]

Grudunza:

 

I was there in the mid 70's under Dallin Oaks. The controversy had pretty well died down by that time, but not fondly remembered.

[longview]

I'm not a Doctor of any type. My specialty is Social Work. But I'll answer your questions as best I can.

 

Yes the Big Bang did happen some 13.798 ± 0.037 billion years ago.

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-powered-the-big-bang/

I consider Cosmology to be in its infant stage despite the science being debated and fleshed out for the past 100 years or so. The math for various aspects are still being tweaked. As Nehor stated, Dark Matter and Dark Energy are unknown. There is yet a vast amount of knowledge to be discovered.

 

Yes protons decay. But on far longer time scales.

https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1207

Thank you for the interesting reference. However, I have a strong "gut" feeling that photons (as wel as protons and all other components) do not exist forever but are somehow continually recycled. Possibly through various dimensions of the Multiverse or black holes or whatever.

 

By definition science can't posit any God or Godlike force. Individual scientists however are free to believe or not believe as they choose.

Maybe not at this stage of human advancement and capabilities. God has explained in the D&C that spirit is "finer" matter and coarse biological human eyes are not capable of spiritual discernment. But the day may come where mankind will have a "breakthrough" in examination of other dimensions besides the basic 4 dimensional space/time. Or to develop revolutionary devices to examine quarks and other infinitessimal components.

 

The burning of any carbon based material combines oxygen with carbon to produce CO2. CO2 is a pollutant to animals.That is basic chemistry. We breathe out CO2 with every breath. Basic biology.

Yes, it is basic biology. The process for breathing in oxygen is necessary for releasing energy for various functions in the body. Expelling CO2 is just as necessary for the body to remove the byproducts of oxidation.

It is silly to demonize it as a pollutant when it is a natural part of the recycling process. Since I believe global warming hysteria to be simply a cover for political elements to impose greater governmental controls over the lifestyle and prosperity of the people, the EPA is participating in a propaganda effort to make people more compliant with reductions in the quality of life. This is just as bad as the IRS in its scheme to deny conservative interest groups' application for tax-free status that liberal organizations are routinely granted. Also, China and India are major polluters (their share will increase exponentially) but the left still insists on imposing economic devastation on the American people without regard to actions of 3rd world countries.

 

Water vapor is a trailing indicator. It merely reflects the action of heat on water. That is basic chemistry.

Do you deny that water vapor has greater capacity for absorbing heat than CO2 several times over? NASA website shows vapor to be the most important greenhouse gas. See http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/GlobalMaps/view.php?d1=MYDAL2_M_SKY_WV

NASA has said that there is evidence that the most recent “Little Ice Age” was caused by a dip in solar activity.

 

The "Medieval Warm Period" was specific to Europe. NOT the entire earth.

http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/tar/wg1/070.htm

I got a "not found" on this website. Maybe it is a temporary problem. However, it would be interesting see why this tremendous warming was confined to Europe when Greenland (normally icebound) became a thriving farming area for vikings and England was able to have great expansion in wine making due to more agreeable weather.

 

The East Anglia research has been vindicated.

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jul2010/2010-07-08-01.htm

 

I'm always open to questions, and will endeavor to back up what I say from recognized scientists and scientific organizations.

The website no longer has a reference to East Anglia. Maybe it got cycled to archive. I am still seeing many references to the scandal.  There is no excuse for the language that was used in their email communications.

 

ENS (Environmental News Service) probably is a very biased propaganda site for extreme environmental activism. For a look at the less hysterical perspective on the issue (including the fact that there has been no warming for the last 17 years and 3 months), see http://heartland.org/issues/environment

 

Another fact is that extreme activists keep changing the label multiple times, such as "Global Warming" to "Climate Change" . . .

[cinepro]

---

My personal feeling is that God uses the process of evolution as an engineering tool for populating worlds, or at least this one, in which its application seems certain. If we are eternal spirits placed into mortal bodies, then those bodies being formed by an evolutionary process seems perfectly justifiable to me, and my body is no less sacred or important to me because of that.

 

 

The only thing that kills this part of the theory for me is the idea of a "spiritual creation".  Creating every living creature first in spirit form kind of negates the possibility of (or need for) evolution.  Sure, God could have created everything spiritually first, including the evolutionary dead ends and transition creatures that would go extinct, but that's kind of a waste of time and energy. 

 

Since God knew what the end results needed to look like (i.e. He knew that He would need to "evolve" rattlesnakes, and pugs, and humans that look exactly like Him), evolution with all of its mutations and dead ends and vestigial features, is the wrong tool for the job.

 

It would be like someone asking me to make a batch of Nestle Tollhouse Cookies, and then me taking years to try and guess what the recipe might be, making thousands of batches with different amounts of sugar and flour and other ingredients until I at last arrive at the proper recipe for a Nestle Tollhouse Cookie.  And all the while, during those years, I have the recipe on the back of the package!  Sure, I could ignore the recipe and do it the experimentation way, by why would I?

[The Nehor]

It would be like someone asking me to make a batch of Nestle Tollhouse Cookies, and then me taking years to try and guess what the recipe might be, making thousands of batches with different amounts of sugar and flour and other ingredients until I at last arrive at the proper recipe for a Nestle Tollhouse Cookie.  And all the while, during those years, I have the recipe on the back of the package!  Sure, I could ignore the recipe and do it the experimentation way, by why would I?

 

Instead have Jesus having a bunch of fallible spirit siblings working with him to design the thing and suddenly they don't have the recipe. Don't even get me started about that lamebrain that wasn't looking and sent a meteor crashing down into the Yucatan and killing all of the dinosaurs. Took millions of years to recover from that amateur blunder.

[Rob Osborn]

The only thing that kills this part of the theory for me is the idea of a "spiritual creation".  Creating every living creature first in spirit form kind of negates the possibility of (or need for) evolution.  Sure, God could have created everything spiritually first, including the evolutionary dead ends and transition creatures that would go extinct, but that's kind of a waste of time and energy. 

 

Since God knew what the end results needed to look like (i.e. He knew that He would need to "evolve" rattlesnakes, and pugs, and humans that look exactly like Him), evolution with all of its mutations and dead ends and vestigial features, is the wrong tool for the job.

 

It would be like someone asking me to make a batch of Nestle Tollhouse Cookies, and then me taking years to try and guess what the recipe might be, making thousands of batches with different amounts of sugar and flour and other ingredients until I at last arrive at the proper recipe for a Nestle Tollhouse Cookie.  And all the while, during those years, I have the recipe on the back of the package!  Sure, I could ignore the recipe and do it the experimentation way, by why would I?

I agree. why take millions of years to create man in your own image when just a feww feet below the brain lies the very seed that ensures that man truly is created in ones own image. That right there seals it up for me.

[BCSpace]

Depends on how the question was asked. IIRC the question specifically refused God as a factor. That is a prejudicial question for LDS, and would be an automatic exclusion.

 

Plus there is the problem that many who attack or reject Evolution don't understand what it is and that unfortunately includes and has included some LDS apostles.  For whatever reason, usually atheist conclusions and not the theory itself, they erroneously think Evolution precludes the existence or the hand of God, or that man is created in His image, or that it teaches that one species gives birth (or even worse, morphs) to another species, etc.

[Stone holm]

The only thing that kills this part of the theory for me is the idea of a "spiritual creation".  Creating every living creature first in spirit form kind of negates the possibility of (or need for) evolution.  Sure, God could have created everything spiritually first, including the evolutionary dead ends and transition creatures that would go extinct, but that's kind of a waste of time and energy. 

 

Since God knew what the end results needed to look like (i.e. He knew that He would need to "evolve" rattlesnakes, and pugs, and humans that look exactly like Him), evolution with all of its mutations and dead ends and vestigial features, is the wrong tool for the job.

 

It would be like someone asking me to make a batch of Nestle Tollhouse Cookies, and then me taking years to try and guess what the recipe might be, making thousands of batches with different amounts of sugar and flour and other ingredients until I at last arrive at the proper recipe for a Nestle Tollhouse Cookie.  And all the while, during those years, I have the recipe on the back of the package!  Sure, I could ignore the recipe and do it the experimentation way, by why would I?

This argument assumes that God invented the process, and that we currently know and understand exactly whether dinosaurs served a purpose, etc. If on the other hand, terraforming is a process developed many creations ago and was determined to work, and there was some need for the various dead ends that we do not yet understand, then the argument fails. It all depends on our beliefs as to what God is like, and how much control He has over establishing the rules of creation.

[sheilauk]

 

Apparently Mormons don't really believe in evolution.

 

For my part, I think evolution is real and used in the Creation of worlds. It is, however, a necessarily incomplete account of humanity -- a species which spans countless star systems (as do other species as well).

Apparently, 78% of USA mormons don't agree that evolution is the best explanation.  To say mormons don't really believe is unfair as some obviously do and there may be many more, or many less in countries outside of the PEW survey.  (And yes, its pedantic, I don't like to see the misuse of statistical data).  Most US mormons don't really believe in evolution would be a more accurate statement.

[Stone holm]

Apparently, 78% of USA mormons don't agree that evolution is the best explanation.  To say mormons don't really believe is unfair as some obviously do and there may be many more, or many less in countries outside of the PEW survey.  (And yes, its pedantic, I don't like to see the misuse of statistical data).  Most US mormons don't really believe in evolution would be a more accurate statement.

Huh? I do not understand this comment, seems like you stood the graph on its head.

[Calm]

Apparently, 78% of USA mormons don't agree that evolution is the best explanation.  To say mormons don't really believe is unfair as some obviously do and there may be many more, or many less in countries outside of the PEW survey.  (And yes, its pedantic, I don't like to see the misuse of statistical data).  Most US mormons don't really believe in evolution would be a more accurate statement.

Also I suspect if they had phrased it as evolution of nonhuman life the rating might have gone up some.

Wasn't that the same report that reported lds significantly believed in reincarnation...and save for a very few that believe in multiple mortal probations, I have got to wonder how the question was asked to get there.

[thesometimesaint]

I agree. why take millions of years to create man in your own image when just a feww feet below the brain lies the very seed that ensures that man truly is created in ones own image. That right there seals it up for me.

 

What is a few billion years to eternal beings?

[ERayR]

My theory of LDS evolution is:

 

One starts out in the intelligence pool and then evolves to the spirit existence then evolves to a mortal existence and finally evolves to a permanent stage which is dependent on their performance and behavior in the prior existences.

[ERayR]

What is a few billion years to eternal beings?

 

Some are indeed slower than others.

[thesometimesaint]

Some are indeed slower than others.

 

I'm indeed one of the slower ones, but I do hope that someday I'll get it.

[Lightbearer]

Ironically I agree with Cinepro, I believe the theory of evolution is incompatible with the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am not convinced that Darwin was correct in his conclusions. I do believe in the Joseph Fielding Smith-Bruce R McConkie model of creation. I believe that this earth was created of existant materials, some consisting of former earths that had the purpose of making combinations of oil and coal reserves for this earth. I believe that the fossils were enbedded in these materials and that these were not from this earth. In fact I believe all life was transplanted from Celestial realms.  I believe that this earth was organized in a terrestrial state, which consisted of no death, no sickness, no suffering, and no sin. The Garden condition covered this earth and the fall brought death, both physical and spiritual upon all things. I believe we now live in a telestial state and that it is manifestly impossible to determine from what is found on this telestial sphere how the creation was done in that terrestrial world. I believe this earth at Christ's return will be renewed and recieve it's paradisical glory (Terrestrial) and after this 1000 year period that this earth will be lifted to a Celestial glory. I believe that this mortal earth (after the fall) has seen 6,000 years of temporal existance as stated in D&C 77:6 and that the Millenium will finish the 7,000 years. I do not believe it necessary to square the revelations of God with the theories of science, rather I measure the theories of science with the revelations and I believe revelation trumps science every time.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

"It is hard to get the people to believe that God is a scientific character, that He lives by science or strict law, that by this He is, and by law he was made what He is; and will remain to all eternity because of His faithful adherence to law. It is a most difficult thing to make the people believe that every art and science and all wisdom comes from Him, and that He is their Author.”

-- Brigham Young, November 13, 1870

[Stone holm]

"It is hard to get the people to believe that God is a scientific character, that He lives by science or strict law, that by this He is, and by law he was made what He is; and will remain to all eternity because of His faithful adherence to law. It is a most difficult thing to make the people believe that every art and science and all wisdom comes from Him, and that He is their Author.”

-- Brigham Young, November 13, 1870

Gave you a bump for this quote.

[thesometimesaint]

Ironically I agree with Cinepro, I believe the theory of evolution is incompatible with the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am not convinced that Darwin was correct in his conclusions. I do believe in the Joseph Fielding Smith-Bruce R McConkie model of creation. I believe that this earth was created of existant materials, some consisting of former earths that had the purpose of making combinations of oil and coal reserves for this earth. I believe that the fossils were enbedded in these materials and that these were not from this earth. In fact I believe all life was transplanted from Celestial realms.  I believe that this earth was organized in a terrestrial state, which consisted of no death, no sickness, no suffering, and no sin. The Garden condition covered this earth and the fall brought death, both physical and spiritual upon all things. I believe we now live in a telestial state and that it is manifestly impossible to determine from what is found on this telestial sphere how the creation was done in that terrestrial world. I believe this earth at Christ's return will be renewed and recieve it's paradisical glory (Terrestrial) and after this 1000 year period that this earth will be lifted to a Celestial glory. I believe that this mortal earth (after the fall) has seen 6,000 years of temporal existance as stated in D&C 77:6 and that the Millenium will finish the 7,000 years. I do not believe it necessary to square the revelations of God with the theories of science, rather I measure the theories of science with the revelations and I believe revelation trumps science every time.

 

God must have a sense of humor. He magically transported their poop.along with those dinosaur bones.

[Stone holm]

Ironically I agree with Cinepro, I believe the theory of evolution is incompatible with the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am not convinced that Darwin was correct in his conclusions. I do believe in the Joseph Fielding Smith-Bruce R McConkie model of creation. I believe that this earth was created of existant materials, some consisting of former earths that had the purpose of making combinations of oil and coal reserves for this earth. I believe that the fossils were enbedded in these materials and that these were not from this earth. In fact I believe all life was transplanted from Celestial realms.  I believe that this earth was organized in a terrestrial state, which consisted of no death, no sickness, no suffering, and no sin. The Garden condition covered this earth and the fall brought death, both physical and spiritual upon all things. I believe we now live in a telestial state and that it is manifestly impossible to determine from what is found on this telestial sphere how the creation was done in that terrestrial world. I believe this earth at Christ's return will be renewed and recieve it's paradisical glory (Terrestrial) and after this 1000 year period that this earth will be lifted to a Celestial glory. I believe that this mortal earth (after the fall) has seen 6,000 years of temporal existance as stated in D&C 77:6 and that the Millenium will finish the 7,000 years. I do not believe it necessary to square the revelations of God with the theories of science, rather I measure the theories of science with the revelations and I believe revelation trumps science every time.

I have always wondered about the former earth theory, which I eventually rejected. We are taught that only people having to do with this planet deal with this planet as Spirits and Angels, etc. Although Christ was the Savior of more than just this planet. We are further taught that the destiny of this planet is to become a Celestial Kingdom. Nothing is said about this planet ever becoming less than a Celestial Kingdom once it is celestialized. So were these former earths aborted creations?

[VideoGameJunkie]

I figure Adam and Eve were in the Garden for billions of years, while everything else was going on.

[Lightbearer]

I have always wondered about the former earth theory, which I eventually rejected. We are taught that only people having to do with this planet deal with this planet as Spirits and Angels, etc. Although Christ was the Savior of more than just this planet. We are further taught that the destiny of this planet is to become a Celestial Kingdom. Nothing is said about this planet ever becoming less than a Celestial Kingdom once it is celestialized. So were these former earths aborted creations?

We really do not know. God told Moses He would only give him an account of this earth. So we are left to wonder what happened on these other earths. I find it much easier to believe in the speculation of God creating other worlds to use those materials to complete this earth rather than to think that God had to wait billions of years for the human race to evolve from pond scum so he could put a spirit into a cousin of the apes and call him Adam. You may accept the theories of men, but I will accept the opinions of prophets and apostles. Here is the quote from Moses:

 

 (Moses 1:29-35) 

“And he beheld many lands; and each land was called  earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof.

  And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?

  And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.

  And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.

  And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

  But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.”

I also find it interesting that the written word and recorded civilization itself begins about 6,000 years ago. Why is this? If we "evolved" would it not have come gradually? In any event I find it more incredible to believe in Mr Darwin's worldview than that revealed in the scriptures. For me it really comes down to one thing, no death before the fall of Adam and that Adam and Eve were not mythical beings but real flesh and blood people. As for the story being figurative, it is only figurative in the sense that we all experience our own personal fall when sin conceives in our hearts as we grow up.

If there was indeed death before the fall (as pertains to this earth) then how could the atonement change the effects of a natural created state? By what law does death enter existence? I believe that the three pillars of eternity are the creation, the fall and the atonement and these three are interdependent.

There are a lot of things in our religion that is declared "impossible" from so-called scientific thought. The resurrection itself is not "scientific" yet I know it is true. a global flood, the parting the Red Sea, surviving a fiery furnace, or bringing fire down from heaven, the turning water into wine, feeding the 5,000 with 7 loaves and 3 fishes, walking on water, stilling the storm, and healing of the sick are all declared impossible by "science" does that mean I deny these things? No, just because I do not understand how these miracles are done does not warrant my rejection of them as supersition or myth.

So until the Prophet of the Lord receives a revelation stating that Mr Darwin is correct in his assumptions and that death has always existed on this earth, I will use my own flawed "theory" of the creation of man. You are at liberty to disagree, but please refrain from mocking and trying to make me feel foolish because I do not subscrirbe to the wisdom of the world.

[Lightbearer]

God must have a sense of humor. He magically transported their poop.along with those dinosaur bones.

I find it interesting that you must resort to such a juvenile statement to try to disprove my opinion. However why do you suppose God would have to "magically transport" anything? I believe this world was composed of matter left over from other worlds, the supposed dinosaur "poop" was not organically intact was it? I mean it was fossilized? So who can say when the creatures did their business. How does this prove your point?

[Lightbearer]

"It is hard to get the people to believe that God is a scientific character, that He lives by science or strict law, that by this He is, and by law he was made what He is; and will remain to all eternity because of His faithful adherence to law. It is a most difficult thing to make the people believe that every art and science and all wisdom comes from Him, and that He is their Author.”

-- Brigham Young, November 13, 1870

I do not believe BY had the Theory of Organic Evolution in mind when he said God was the author of science and art... I do not think every theory of science is inspired of God. Some nodoubt is, but not all. Besides, isn't this Brigham's "opinion"?

[Stone holm]

I find it interesting that you must resort to such a juvenile statement to try to disprove my opinion. However why do you suppose God would have to "magically transport" anything? I believe this world was composed of matter left over from other worlds, the supposed dinosaur "poop" was not organically intact was it? I mean it was fossilized? So who can say when the creatures did their business. How does this prove your point?

Yeah, I understand your theory, but there doesn't seem to be much geologic evidence to support it.

[Stone holm]

I figure Adam and Eve were in the Garden for billions of years, while everything else was going on.

That seems to be the most consistent way to look at it given our current theological and scientific understandings, but it requires us to believe in a non global Garden of Eden and some on this board reject the limited Garden concept.