Not Feeling Very Mormon Today.

[EllenMaksoud]

Just throwing this out, and I'll not abide any barking or yelling at me. The Sunday school lessons are taking us into very strange and um weird land. Today, I got fed up and left. So now is the time for some of you born hero Mormons to straighten me out. Still a little angry about this and upset, but am studying the scriptures, and will

 

Genesis 1 is clear. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. "

 

John 1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing that was made."

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

In Moses 1 Describes Moses as a Son of God, and with some thought, I can agree with that as Jesus Christ said that those who do his will are Friends, Brothers and Sisters. It is a leap to come to the place where it is clear that Jesus Christ is the God of the OT.

 

I'm not finished with my research on this.

 

And, I do not like feeling forced to buy into this doctrine

 

 

[Calm]

My memory is wonky today so perhaps you could refresh it with more details as to why this idea of divine investiture of the Son acting for the Father as the Father in the OT troubles you so much? Do you see it as contradicting scripture or something else?

PS: I don't see this as a core belief in the sense that if one doesn't accept it, it creates difficulty in accepting those beliefs that are salvific for us. I see this as more of a "contextual" belief where our prophets are trying to convey to us the story of God's interaction with Man to us....and I don't believe we need to have all the details correct and in place as long as we understand the grand sweep of it all...which is God's love for mankind and his total commitment to us and our happiness.

Edited January 20, 2014 by calmoriah

[Garden Girl]

Ellen...

Perhaps this should have been placed in the Gen Disc forum... you state you don't like being forced to "buy into this doctrine."  The Social forum isn't really the place to have this discussion because, as you know, it's not for debate, etc.  And, you challenge some of us "born hero Mormons" (a derogatory, sarcastic challenge) to straighten you out... stating that you are still a little angry and upset.   Hmmm... 

 

GG

 

[Calm]

Ellen and others might be interested in this (and others on later lessons):

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/scripture-roundtable-51-old-testament-gospel-doctrine-lesson-1-this-is-my-work-and-my-glory/

[Tacenda]

Because I'm just as confused as Ellen, I'll listen soon, in the meantime I'm watching "The Butler", and it's so fitting because it's Martin Luther King day tomorrow.

[TAO]

Just throwing this out, and I'll not abide any barking or yelling at me. The Sunday school lessons are taking us into very strange and um weird land. Today, I got fed up and left. So now is the time for some of you born hero Mormons to straighten me out. Still a little angry about this and upset, but am studying the scriptures, and will

 

Genesis 1 is clear. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. "

 

John 1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing that was made."

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

In Moses 1 Describes Moses as a Son of God, and with some thought, I can agree with that as Jesus Christ said that those who do his will are Friends, Brothers and Sisters. It is a leap to come to the place where it is clear that Jesus Christ is the God of the OT.

 

I'm not finished with my research on this.

 

And, I do not like feeling forced to buy into this doctrine

 

Ellen, is the issue you are having trouble with the idea that Jehovah was the God of the Old Testament?

[EllenMaksoud]

Ellen, is the issue you are having trouble with the idea that Jehovah was the God of the Old Testament?

Yes. I am progressing through it all, not looking for an excuse to leave the church or anything. It is a curse to be a questioner; not easily convinced. There was a meeting with the Missionaries, Relief Society President and her husband. It took some time and there is more reading to do. There is a Bruce R McConkie book called "Mormon Doctrine", that I need to read.

[Tacenda]

Yes. I am progressing through it all, not looking for an excuse to leave the church or anything. It is a curse to be a questioner; not easily convinced. There was a meeting with the Missionaries, Relief Society President and her husband. It took some time and there is more reading to do. There is a Bruce R McConkie book called "Mormon Doctrine", that I need to read.

That book isn't even sold at the church's bookstore anymore, are you sure you want to read a book that might have wrong doctrine now? The church has discontinued it for a reason. I know David O. McKay wanted it discontinued long ago, he as you know was a prophet. Did someone refer you to that book? They may not know of the problems with that book. There really needs to be a new, more accurate Mormon Doctrine.

[Coreyb]

I wouldn't start by reading Mormon Doctrine Ellen. Its very controversial and the authoritarian attitude with which brother McConkie writes puts off a lot of people (and its not "Doctrine"). Jesus the Christ by Talmage would be a better book to start with in exploring this topic. Just my opinion

[EllenMaksoud]

That book isn't even sold at the church's bookstore anymore, are you sure you want to read a book that might have wrong doctrine now? The church has discontinued it for a reason. I know David O. McKay wanted it discontinued long ago, he as you know was a prophet. Did someone refer you to that book? They may not know of the problems with that book. There really needs to be a new, more accurate Mormon Doctrine.

I will ask around about the book. I would like to know more about possible doctrinal issues. I can get one at Amazon for $17 used. I am told that the portion of the book that answered my question is right out of what is taught at the Temple. These are some life long, old time Mormons that are using this book.

[EllenMaksoud]

I wouldn't start by reading Mormon Doctrine Ellen. Its very controversial and the authoritarian attitude with which brother McConkie writes puts off a lot of people (and its not "Doctrine"). Jesus the Christ by Talmage would be a better book to start with in exploring this topic. Just my opinion

Well, I have noticed that some of the old time Mormons are pretty dogmatic and authoritarian. Some of the doctrines are not as hard line as what I experienced in Islam. There is no "agency" for them.

[altersteve]

I don't think it matters WHO the God of the Old Testament was. God was the God of the Old Testament. And God = Jesus Christ. God also = Heavenly Father. It doesn't matter. They are one.

[Coreyb]

Well, I have noticed that some of the old time Mormons are pretty dogmatic and authoritarian. Some of the doctrines are not as hard line as what I experienced in Islam. There is no "agency" for them.

I have noticed that as well. There are other books on Mormon doctrines, one by Andrew Skinner I believe, that are probably better than McConkie's book. Jesus the Christ is the first place that the doctrines you are speaking of are fully formulated. It explains them well, but it isnt the easiest to read, since it is a fairly old book.

[Coreyb]

I don't think it matters WHO the God of the Old Testament was. God was the God of the Old Testament. And God = Jesus Christ. God also = Heavenly Father. It doesn't matter. They are one.

True Dat

[EllenMaksoud]

I have noticed that as well. There are other books on Mormon doctrines, one by Andrew Skinner I believe, that are probably better than McConkie's book. Jesus the Christ is the first place that the doctrines you are speaking of are fully formulated. It explains them well, but it isnt the easiest to read, since it is a fairly old book.

I am distantly related (1860's) to a Sister Skinner here in Portland. I wonder if they are related and why my family did not continue with the Mormons.  I also encountered an elderly man today that says he is a cousin of Joseph Smith.

 

You are not the first person to recommend "Jesus the Christ". I suppose I need to go buy it tomorrow.

[EllenMaksoud]

I don't think it matters WHO the God of the Old Testament was. God was the God of the Old Testament. And God = Jesus Christ. God also = Heavenly Father. It doesn't matter. They are one.

Putting a broader point on the matter, I agree.

[TAO]

Yes. I am progressing through it all, not looking for an excuse to leave the church or anything. It is a curse to be a questioner; not easily convinced. There was a meeting with the Missionaries, Relief Society President and her husband. It took some time and there is more reading to do. There is a Bruce R McConkie book called "Mormon Doctrine", that I need to read.

 

Mmm... I'll explain it according to what I understand.  Basically, there are two names (and several sub-names) in the Hebrew version of the Bible which translate to God, both referring to two different beings.  One refers to God the Father (El Elyon or Eloheim), and the other refers to Jesus Christ (Jehovah).  The proper translation of the first verse of the Bible says, "The head one of the Gods brought forth the Gods"... the head one of the Gods is referring to God the Father.  However, the Old Testament mostly uses Jehovah - meaning Jesus Christ.  As they both are 'God' in one sense or the other, this can create some confusion in the English version, which doesn't show that it is referring to two different people.  But the Hebrew version shows it appropriately.

[Tacenda]

I will ask around about the book. I would like to know more about possible doctrinal issues. I can get one at Amazon for $17 used. I am told that the portion of the book that answered my question is right out of what is taught at the Temple. These are some life long, old time Mormons that are using this book.

My husband and son both used it on their missions, but there is stuff in there that is no longer believed. The folks on here will agree, and church headquarters. These old timers just didn't get the memo.

[EllenMaksoud]

Mmm... I'll explain it according to what I understand.  Basically, there are two names (and several sub-names) in the Hebrew version of the Bible which translate to God, both referring to two different beings.  One refers to God the Father (El Elyon or Eloheim), and the other refers to Jesus Christ (Jehovah).  The proper translation of the first verse of the Bible says, "The head one of the Gods brought forth the Gods"... the head one of the Gods is referring to God the Father.  However, the Old Testament mostly uses Jehovah - meaning Jesus Christ.  As they both are 'God' in one sense or the other, this can create some confusion in the English version, which doesn't show that it is referring to two different people.  But the Hebrew version shows it appropriately.

So, please do not interpret my questions as a lack of respect. I wonder why I never heard any of this as an Evangelical (Baptist, 4 Square, Assembly of God)?  I have run into some Jewish folk that say Christians have it wrong in many places. One of them that I remember, perhaps because it is more lurid is Deut 22:5. Evangelicals can get themselves into a genuine froth over that one. A Jewish acquaintance of mine, says that passage actually says for the men and women to stay out of each other's tents, according to him.

 

Another issue is that if the Jews called God one thing, and Jesus the other, then does that mean they knew who Jesus in the OT was? Did the Jews know that there were two or more (Godlike) beings?  I am told that in Genesis 11:7 the use of "We" or "Us" did not mean more than one personage but was a rank signifier.  Hmmm

[TAO]

So, please do not interpret my questions as a lack of respect. I wonder why I never heard any of this as an Evangelical (Baptist, 4 Square, Assembly of God)?  I have run into some Jewish folk that say Christians have it wrong in many places. One of them that I remember, perhaps because it is more lurid is Deut 22:5. Evangelicals can get themselves into a genuine froth over that one. A Jewish acquaintance of mine, says that passage actually says for the men and women to stay out of each other's tents, according to him.

 

Another issue is that if the Jews called God one thing, and Jesus the other, then does that mean they knew who Jesus in the OT was? Did the Jews know that there were two or more (Godlike) beings?  I am told that in Genesis 11:7 the use of "We" or "Us" did not mean more than one personage but was a rank signifier.  Hmmm

 

Nah, questions are fine, don't you worry about it =).  You come off perfectly friendly =D.

 

Mmm... I don't know why you didn't hear about any of it.  It probably is because they interpret the verse differently than we do, but not sure.

 

They didn't know that Jesus was Jehovah... but we know he is through modern revelation, and perhaps, the Bible as well (you'd have to ask someone who's more knowledgeable on that one).

 

The Jews knew that there were originally, but much like mainstream Christianity, switched to a more strictly monotheistic interpretation over time, as far as I know.  Again, it'd probably be better to ask someone who knows a bit more.

 

No idea about Genesis 11:7, but it reads somewhat the same way as the first chapter of Genesis in text, so I'm guessing it may have been referring to more than one personage.  But not sure at all.  Better to ask someone who knows a bit more again XD.

 

I don't think I helped too much =p.  Sorryz.

[MorningStar]

Ellen, I think all of us have trouble grasping some things, whether born in the church or not.  No one is expecting you to instantly understand and embrace every doctrine in the Gospel.

[rodheadlee]

Just throwing this out, and I'll not abide any barking or yelling at me. The Sunday school lessons are taking us into very strange and um weird land. Today, I got fed up and left. So now is the time for some of you born hero Mormons to straighten me out. Still a little angry about this and upset, but am studying the scriptures, and will

 

Genesis 1 is clear. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. "

 

John 1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing that was made."

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

In Moses 1 Describes Moses as a Son of God, and with some thought, I can agree with that as Jesus Christ said that those who do his will are Friends, Brothers and Sisters. It is a leap to come to the place where it is clear that Jesus Christ is the God of the OT.

 

I'm not finished with my research on this.

 

And, I do not like feeling forced to buy into this doctrine

D and C 38

  1 Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great ^aI Am, Alpha and Omega, the ^bbeginning and the end, the ^csame which looked upon the ^dwide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic ^ehosts of heaven, ^fbefore the world was ^gmade;

  2 The same which ^aknoweth all things, for ^ball things are ^cpresent before mine eyes;

  3 I am the same which ^aspake, and the world was made, and all things came by me.

  4 I am the same which have taken the ^aZion of ^bEnoch into mine own bosom; and verily, I say, even as many as have ^cbelieved in my name, for I am Christ, and in mine own name, by the virtue of the ^dblood which I have spilt, have I pleaded before the Father for them.

[strappinglad]

I thought there was a thread on this General Discussions. Let me check and see. Oh, sorry.

[rodheadlee]

D and C 19:

 

  1 I am ^aAlpha and Omega, ^bChrist the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the ^cworld.

  2 I, having accomplished and ^afinished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might ^bsubdue all things unto myself—

  3 Retaining all ^apower, even to the ^bdestroying of Satan and his works at the ^cend of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, ^djudging every man according to his ^eworks and the deeds which he hath done.

  4 And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

  5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

  6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

  7 Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

  8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this ^amystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

  9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my ^arest.

  10 For, behold, the ^amystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am ^bendless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless ^cpunishment, for ^dEndless is my name. Wherefore—

  11 ^aEternal punishment is God’s punishment.

  12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

  13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the ^acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

  14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

  15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

  16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they might not ^bsuffer if they would ^crepent;

[rodheadlee]

Exodus 3:

 

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? ^awhat shall I say unto them?

  14 And God said unto Moses, ^aI AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

  15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The ^aLord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my ^bname for ever, and ^cthis is my ^dmemorial unto all generations