Senator Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Do we still believe the Lord directs the Church? I hope so. I feel to say that in general I believe he does. But in the end I must confess that I really don't know.
Palerider Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) I think God in his way, when he thinks it appropriate and when we allow him to, directs all of his children here on earth regardless of their religion. In other words,He's not going to say, "I won't answer your prayers because you are a Mormon or an Evangelical, etc. On the other hand I don't see the LDS church as having ever had a special, or "authority driven" dispensation of revelation from Heavenly Father. When he sees a group being led by either Pope or "Prophet" he tries to do the best he can for that group including inspiring the leader. If a given man were truly a prophet in the classic sense that we understand it, there would be FAR fewer errors than what we have seen in LDS history. The earlier quotes from the D&C regarding the "weaknesses of the servants" are more of a CYA tactic than anything. Edited December 20, 2013 by Palerider
Senator Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Juliann, et al, will be along to brand you a racist any minute now. No, she won't. But she may call you out for racist and sexist comments. 1
Avatar4321 Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 I think that we must separate what people are saying and what the church is saying. I see no backtracking by the church on polygamy or the ban. But I do see some members backtracking. For example, the youtube church member who apologized. Or members who claim that polygamy was not from god but from Joseph Smith. I think that your confusion comes from being an internet commenter on boards such as this. One must separate the internet from the church and realize that the church has more or less stuck to the script. Anyone trying to explain that polygamy was not of God but that Joseph Smith made it up seriously needs to address the problem the Bible makes for them. Because the Lord clearly approved of polygamy multiple times in the scriptures. Even saying so much that He gave David his wives. To answer the question yes I still believe the Lord directs His Church. I believe in the revelations that occured in the past. And I believe in the modern revelations. Particularly when it comes to hastening the work. I don't understand everything the Lord is doing. or the instructions He has given us throughout the years, but I know He is leading us. And He will continue to lead us as we remain humble before Him. 2
Stone holm Posted December 20, 2013 Author Posted December 20, 2013 The best answer I can give is to report on his direction to the very small portion of the church that has fallen under my stewardship. I have served in church callings for about 25 years. Many of these callings have been priesthood roles. I have held keys four different times. In other words, there have been many instances where God's direction was supposed to come through me. I would estimate that in 1-2% of the decisions made under my direction I can comfortably attribute the decision as being directed by guidance from God. The remaining 98-99% of decisions resulted from my best judgement, often with the input of counselors. I never took an action contrary to what I thought was God's guidance, but most often he allowed me to make decisions of my own wisdom. That is true even for many instances where I repeatedly sought guidance and none came. Looking back, I can also affirm that there were teachings and policies I gave under a good faith believe that they came from God, but which I now know were not from him. For instance, as a FT missionary, I taught investigators that polygamy was instituted because there were not enough men around due to persecution against the church. I now know that to be false. But for some reason God didn't stop me from teaching it, even though I was his authorized servant at the time. Because of my experience, I have no problem working under men/women in the church who are just as flawed and helpless as I am. In fact, I find that I respect most those who allow their flaws to be known and keep perservering. I have no idea what percentage of decisions made by general authorities are directly the result of revelation. But if it turns out to be only 1-2%, as with me so far, I would have no problem with that. So long as it is more than 0%, we will get to where we need to be with enough time. Also because of my experience, I have not been bothered by huge mistakes - such as the priesthood ban - to the degree that it undermines my testimony of the overall work. Yes, I am troubled by the ban because of the harm inflicted. But I believe the mistake was made in good faith and is (slowly) being repented of by the church (leaders and members alike). For me, the fact that the ban lasted so long does not necessarily indicate that God should have stopped it. As bad as it was, there are frankly many worse things in human history which he did not stop either.Although I would agree as to the day to day local governance, though I would put the percentage somewhat higher, as to policies as important as the ban or polygamy...I suspect The Lord was much, much more involved those issues were just too big. As to general history, well that is a whole different kettle of fish. The Jews are still pondering where God was during the mid twentieth century. There I believe God merely tweaks things.
jkwilliams Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Anyone trying to explain that polygamy was not of God but that Joseph Smith made it up seriously needs to address the problem the Bible makes for them. Because the Lord clearly approved of polygamy multiple times in the scriptures. Even saying so much that He gave David his wives. Most people I know aren't troubled so much by the concept of polygamy but by how it was practiced. Yes, the Old Testament approves of plural marriage, but I can't find any scriptures in which God commands plural marriage or tells his prophet to conceal the marriages from his wife. Nor is there anything in the OT about marrying women who were already married. Heck, these things aren't even talked about in section 132, which is supposed to be the instructions by which Joseph was operating. It's fine to be OK with polygamy, but you don't help things by telling people what they should or should not think about it. 1
Stone holm Posted December 20, 2013 Author Posted December 20, 2013 Anyone trying to explain that polygamy was not of God but that Joseph Smith made it up seriously needs to address the problem the Bible makes for them. Because the Lord clearly approved of polygamy multiple times in the scriptures. Even saying so much that He gave David his wives. To answer the question yes I still believe the Lord directs His Church. I believe in the revelations that occured in the past. And I believe in the modern revelations. Particularly when it comes to hastening the work. I don't understand everything the Lord is doing. or the instructions He has given us throughout the years, but I know He is leading us. And He will continue to lead us as we remain humble before Him.Agreed, gave you a bump on that.
Stone holm Posted December 20, 2013 Author Posted December 20, 2013 Most people I know aren't troubled so much by the concept of polygamy but by how it was practiced. Yes, the Old Testament approves of plural marriage, but I can't find any scriptures in which God commands plural marriage or tells his prophet to conceal the marriages from his wife. Nor is there anything in the OT about marrying women who were already married. Heck, these things aren't even talked about in section 132, which is supposed to be the instructions by which Joseph was operating. It's fine to be OK with polygamy, but you don't help things by telling people what they should or should not think about it.Why not we do it all the time.
Stone holm Posted December 20, 2013 Author Posted December 20, 2013 Juliann, et al, will be along to brand you a racist any minute now.Lol...careful you will get yourself banned from the thread.
ERayR Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Did you not notice that over time things have a way of working out. His purposes are served but he doesn't work on your or my time scale. 1
pogi Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) I'm courious how such policies relate to the idea the prophet won't be allowed to lead the LDS church astray. The promise that the prophet will not lead the church astray is not a promise that they will not teach incorrect ideas from time to time. Not even the fallibility of the prophets can keep the church from moving forward to its prophesied end, "until the great Jehovah shall say the work is done." I interpret that to mean that the prophet will not be allowed to lead the church into apostasy ever again. Edited December 20, 2013 by pogi 1
Buzzard Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 On the other hand I don't see the LDS church as having ever had a special, or "authority driven" dispensation of revelation from Heavenly Father. Well, of course you don't. That's probably one of the reasons your not LDS. But we do. It's right there in our scriptures. John the Baptist (and later Peter, James and John, then Moses and Elijah and Christ) coming down physically to do exactly that-give the priesthood keys and authority to the church that are required to administer God's kingdom here on earth. And that frankly, is the big difference. We aren't smarter than people who belong to other religions. Although we do well on polls of how well we live our religion, there is certainly no monopoly of righteousness among the Latter Day Saints. But we ARE "the only true and living dchurch upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well epleased, " (D&C 1:30) Not because we said it-that would be a bit presumptuous-but because God said it, irrespective of our mistakes. It's frankly amazing, given the foibles of men in previous dispensations, that we haven't screwed it up and/or made more mistakes than we have. CYA, my...well you know. 2
CA Steve Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 If God were not leading the Church how would it have acted differently? 1
Palerider Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Agreed, gave you a bump on that. I wouldn't be so quick to agree with this. Most Biblical references to plural marriage are initiated by the people involved, not God. The only one where God MIGHT be seen as approving is where David received the wives of Saul and even that is debatable. I see Biblical polygamy as something cultural that God turned a blind eye to rather than encouraged. Find me a Biblical reference where God says in essence, "Take more wives, I want you to have more wives, that's the order of the kingdom of heaven........" I don't think so........... 1
Palerider Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Well, of course you don't. That's probably one of the reasons your not LDS. But we do. It's right there in our scriptures. John the Baptist (and later Peter, James and John, then Moses and Elijah and Christ) coming down physically to do exactly that-give the priesthood keys and authority to the church that are required to administer God's kingdom here on earth. And that frankly, is the big difference. We aren't smarter than people who belong to other religions. Although we do well on polls of how well we live our religion, there is certainly no monopoly of righteousness among the Latter Day Saints. But we ARE "the only true and living dchurch upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well epleased, " (D&C 1:30) Not because we said it-that would be a bit presumptuous-but because God said it, irrespective of our mistakes. It's frankly amazing, given the foibles of men in previous dispensations, that we haven't screwed it up and/or made more mistakes than we have. CYA, my...well you know. Let's see......is this the part where I'm supposed to bow down in wonder at how powerful these "revelations" are from the D&C, and say "I want to come back to the great and powerful church again!"....?
DBMormon Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 If God were not leading the Church how would it have acted differently? There is the question of the Day.... Would it have acted differently?
Ahab Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 And the church should have lead in anti racism, that is the way a church led by God should behave, out in front not behind or late to the party.Some people feel the same way about America. That out of all countries in the world, America would be at the forefront of establishing the idea that all people should be treated as equals, regardless of race or religion or sex. But look at how long it took after England had already abolished slavery, and after America had a war about slavery. I agree that the Church should have seen the light on this issue a lot earlier than it did, and so should have America, but that's not what the record shows, is it, and we're still not as intellectually advanced as we should be otherwise there wouldn't be such a disparity between the rich and the poor. That's not right either, and yet as a Church and in the world, generally, we're still not treating everyone as equals while sharing all that we have with each other. 3
Kenngo1969 Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 No, she won't. But she may call you out for racist and sexist comments.Only if she completely misunderstands what I'm saying.
Buzzard Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Let's see......is this the part where I'm supposed to bow down in wonder at how powerful these "revelations" are from the D&C, and say "I want to come back to the great and powerful church again!"....?Nope. And in what is surely an oversight on my part, was not aware that you were a former member. But wanted to delineate the difference between (as we see it) a good Baptist/Catholic/Muslin/whatever, and a good LDS. The difference really is Priesthood authority.
mfbukowski Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) Given some of the comments being made with reference to the essays about the Priesthood ban and Polygamy, I think it is a fair question to ask whether we still believe The Lord directs His Church or is it just men doing the best they can?I fail to see the difference. "Men doing the best they can" IS the Lord directing them. What do you want? A pillar of light at night and regular lightening strikes to evil doers? What do you think the "still small voice" IS? It's God's whisperings to us to do our best. Edited December 20, 2013 by mfbukowski 3
mfbukowski Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 In my heart I wish that God directed all things in the Church at all times.And then we would have no agency. Sounds exactly like what we teach as "Satan's Plan". 3
mfbukowski Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 I will also add that I would guess on average most members start with a very literal, God is involved very directly with the Church in it's work. And that as people are aware of more and more history, it's complexity, and its nuance that that view of God being intimately and directly involved lessens. amounts and where on the scale is up for discussion but this is my perception.Welcome to the Perry Scheme, for lack of a better example.
halconero Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Do we believe that God guided his Church through that same Peter who was directed by God to open the Gospel to the Gentiles without compulsion to convert to the laws of Moses as well, and whom later refused to eat with Gentiles, shunned them, and was called out on the matter by Paul? 3
Palerider Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Do we believe that God guided his Church through that same Peter who was directed by God to open the Gospel to the Gentiles without compulsion to convert to the laws of Moses as well, and whom later refused to eat with Gentiles, shunned them, and was called out on the matter by Paul? I think so, which also points out the ability God has for quickly correcting a situation of error, unlike waiting 100 some-odd years for someone to turn the light on over President Kimball's head, which is what the church would have us believe happened. See 2 Samuel 7: 1-11 for a great example of the Lord quickly correcting a mis-step of not only King David but the prophet Nathan as well.
Palerider Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 (edited) Nope. And in what is surely an oversight on my part, was not aware that you were a former member. But wanted to delineate the difference between (as we see it) a good Baptist/Catholic/Muslin/whatever, and a good LDS. The difference really is Priesthood authority. And that priesthood authority is the very thing that is in question in many people's minds. Does God allow those who claim to be His servants to do shoddy work in His kingdom or does he correct their "mistakes" in good time? Correcting a mistake can be done quickly and easily without impinging upon one's free agency. A prophet could still choose not to follow the direction as in the case of Jonah and the whale. Edited December 21, 2013 by Palerider
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