I Always Knew That There Was A God...

[Calm]

I think he is saying something quite different...just that we can know what we think about whether every atheist believes or not, even if we can't read minds to confirm/prove our opinion.

 

I can answer that I think that not all atheists know there is a God.  I don't believe that Korihor qualifies as a situation that can be generalized to all atheists that have ever existed or will.

 

If I have interpreted him wrongly, I am confident he will correct me.  

[bluebell]

I think he is saying something quite different...just that we can know what we think about whether every atheist believes or not, even if we can't read minds to confirm/prove our opinion.

 

I can answer that I think that not all atheists know there is a God.  I don't believe that Korihor qualifies as a situation that can be generalized to all atheists that have ever existed or will.

 

If I have interpreted him wrongly, I am confident he will correct me.  

 

I think i understand he's saying that we can know what we think, but i don't get how anyone thinks it's possible to answer a question that implies all atheists are either one way or all are another way.

 

I guess what i mean is, regardless of what we think about whether or not atheists actually believe in God, the way the question is worded seems to make it impossible to answer because you have to assume all atheists are exactly alike to pick a choice, and surely no one believes that all atheists believe the exact same thing. 

Edited December 21, 2013 by bluebell

[3DOP]

bluebell

You don't understand how anyone could NOT think they know how every atheist in the world really believes regardless of what they say they believe?

 

3DOP

That is not my understanding. In fact, that would be a ridiculous understanding, in my opinion. Put another way, I do understand how anyone could NOT think...etc., and so forth

 

bluebell
And you sincerely think that every atheist in the world either believes in God secretly, or doesn't?

 

3DOP

Yes. That is what I most sincerely think even though the poll question did not require us to make a generalization about every atheist. It used the plural without specifying a higher number. Regardless of that, surely you do not think both states of mind can secretly co-exist? Either they secretly believe in God or do not secretly believe in God. Just as everyone secretly pulls for the Lakers, or doesn't. It has to be they do or they don't. Right? Can one be simultaneously secretly milking the cows and not secretly milking the cows? Such a circumstance seems impossible to me.

 

bluebell
You don't see a problem with assuming that all atheists believe the exact same thing and asking people to answer a question based on that premise?

 

3DOP

I don't see a problem with a poll asking people if they have silly opinions, even though I do not think this poll is silly. I replied to your post because you seemed to be unreasonably critical of the poll question. I think I know why. This latest reply tends to confirm my suspicion that you do not understand the question. If you understood the question you would understand that my answer to the poll which I have revealed, in the negative, is almost certainly in agreement with what you seem to think.

 

My quibble with you is not about the atheists. We are probably in agreement about the atheists. But we are in profound disagreement about what is being inquired about in the poll question if you think we are unqualified to answer. I find your criticism of the poll question to be completely unfounded. 

 

Here is the question: "Do you think atheists know God exists?"

 

It is a completely subjective question. We aren't being asked to read anyone's mind except our own! This means we should be thoroughly qualified to answer it. The question is about us first, and our thoughts about the atheist. If somebody thinks they can read minds, that is not a fault of the question. Neither is it a problem with the question if the Korihor incident is taken by some to mean that it is a matter of faith that at least two atheists know God exists. There are five or six answers in the affirmative which demonstrates that some people think that two atheists know God exists. If I had revelation that said it was so, I would think it too. The question isn't so much about what the atheist knows but what we think about the atheist. 

Edited December 22, 2013 by 3DOP

[bluebell]

bluebell

You don't understand how anyone could NOT think they know how every atheist in the world really believes regardless of what they say they believe?

 

3DOP

That is not my understanding. In fact, that would be a ridiculous understanding, in my opinion. Put another way, I do understand how anyone could NOT think...etc., and so forth

 

bluebell

And you sincerely think that every atheist in the world either believes in God secretly, or doesn't?

 

3DOP

Yes. That is what I most sincerely think. Surely you do not think both states of mind can secretly co-exist? Either they secretly believe in God or do not secretly believe in God. Just as everyone secretly pulls for the Lakers, or doesn't. It has to be they do or they don't. Right? Can one be simultaneously secretly milking the cows and not secretly milking the cows? Such a circumstance seems impossible to me.

 

bluebell

You don't see a problem with assuming that all atheists believe the exact same thing and asking people to answer a question based on that premise?

 

3DOP

I don't see a problem with a poll asking people if they have silly opinions, even though I do not think this poll is silly. I replied to your post because you seemed to be unreasonably critical of the poll question. I think I know why. This latest reply tends to confirm my suspicion that you do not understand the question. If you understood the question you would understand that my answer to the poll which I have revealed, in the negative, is even in agreement I think with what you seem to think!

 

My quibble with you is not about the atheists. We are probably in agreement about the atheists. But we are in profound disagreement about what is being inquired about in the poll question if you think we are unqualified to answer. I find your criticism of the poll question to be completely unfounded. 

 

Here is the question: "Do you think atheists know God exists?"

 

It is a completely subjective question. We aren't being asked to read anyone's mind except our own! This means we should be thoroughly qualified to answer it. The question is about us first, and our thoughts about the atheist. If somebody thinks they can read minds, that is not a fault of the question. Neither is it a problem with the question if the Korihor incident is taken by some to mean that it is a matter of faith that at least two atheists know God exists. There are five or six answers in the affirmative which demonstrates that some people think that two atheists know God exists. If I had revelation that said it was so, I would think it too. The question isn't so much about what the atheist thinks but what we think about the atheist. 

 

Nope, you really have no idea what I'm actually being critical of.  

 

My issue is with how the poll is worded.  That's what i'm trying to point out with my questions to you.

 

The way the poll is worded, either you have to vote that all atheists in existence secretly believe in God, or you have to vote that no atheists in existence believe in him.    

 

It would be like asking a poll with these two options:

 

-Catholics agree with the policies of the new pope

-Catholics don't agree with the policies of the new pope

 

In your estimation, regardless of what people think about Catholics and their support of the pope, is this poll answerable?

Edited December 22, 2013 by bluebell

[3DOP]

bluebell

My issue is with how the poll is worded.  That's what i'm trying to point out with my questions to you.

 

3DOP

Okay.

 

bluebell
The way the poll is worded, either you have to vote that all atheists in existence secretly believe in God, or you have to vote that no atheists in existence believe in him. 

 

3DOP

First of all, you are inserting the word all into the equation where it did not previously exist. If the author of the question intended that to say "all atheists" he didn't. So it appears that your objection to the question is partially based on a generalization that is not required as worded. It asks about "atheists". That means at least two. It sounds like he is talking about the living. But it might even include the dead. That would be a plausible interpretation in which case Mormons have the example found in the Book of Mormon. You only need one more. There is an easy answer for those who think that some atheists know that God exists. The answer would then of course be, yes.

bluebell
It would be like asking a poll with these two options:

-Catholics agree with the policies of the new pope
-Catholics don't agree with the policies of the new pope

In your estimation, regardless of what people think about Catholics and their support of the pope, is this poll answerable?

 

3DOP

I am afraid time is getting away from me this evening. We're going Christmas carolling in about an hour and I need to get ready. Maybe someone else will answer before I get a chance. I kind of hope so.

[bluebell]

bluebell

My issue is with how the poll is worded.  That's what i'm trying to point out with my questions to you.

 

3DOP

Okay.

 

bluebell

The way the poll is worded, either you have to vote that all atheists in existence secretly believe in God, or you have to vote that no atheists in existence believe in him. 

 

3DOP

First of all, you are inserting the word all into the equation where it did not previously exist. If the author of the question intended that to say "all atheists" he didn't. So it appears that your objection to the question is partially based on a generalization that is not required as worded. It asks about "atheists". That means at least two. It sounds like he is talking about the living. But it might even include the dead. That would be a plausible interpretation in which case Mormons have the example found in the Book of Mormon. You only need one more. There is an easy answer for those who think that some atheists know that God exists. The answer would then of course be, yes.

bluebell

It would be like asking a poll with these two options:

-Catholics agree with the policies of the new pope

-Catholics don't agree with the policies of the new pope

In your estimation, regardless of what people think about Catholics and their support of the pope, is this poll answerable?

 

3DOP

I am afraid time is getting away from me this evening. We're going Christmas carolling in about an hour and I need to get ready. Maybe someone else will answer before I get a chance. I kind of hope so.

 

Because the author of the poll did not qualify his statement, but stated it the way he did, the all is implied.  

 

Maybe it wouldn't bug me so much except i had to take a class on survey writing.  This is a classic mistake.

[Calm]

 

 

Maybe it wouldn't bug me so much except i had to take a class on survey writing.  This is a classic mistake.

Ah, that explains it.  I thought you had been hanging out too much with me.

[bluebell]

Ah, that explains it.  I thought you had been hanging out too much with me.

 

[3DOP]

I don't see it. I really don't. I don't think all atheists know there is a God. There is no yes or no about it. The easy answer is no. If I thought one atheist knew there is a God (assuming the implication), the answer would still be easy, no. Only if I thought all atheists knew there was a God would the answer be yes. All I have to know is what I think. 

 

Anyway...I guess we are at an irresolvable impasse on this not very pressing question. I suppose we can both be happy with our points of view without causing anyone much harm. A Blessed Lord's Day to you bluebell.

 

Rory

Edited December 22, 2013 by 3DOP

[bluebell]

I don't see it. I really don't. I don't think all atheists know there is a God. There is no yes or no about it. The easy answer is no. If I thought one atheist knew there is a God (assuming the implication), the answer would still be easy, no. Only if I thought all atheists knew there was a God would the answer be yes. All I have to know is what I think. 

 

Anyway...I guess we are at an irresolvable impasse on this not very pressing question. I suppose we can both be happy with our points of view without causing anyone much harm. A Blessed Lord's Day to you bluebell.

 

Rory

 

To you as well Rory!

 

My issue is, if you think 99% (or 50%, or 1%, or any percent less than 100) of atheists believe there is a God, and 1% (or any percent more than zero) doesn't, you can't answer the poll.

 

If you believe that atheists both do believe in God, and also don't believe in God, you must choose both yes and no on the poll.  That's a problem, if the purpose of the poll is to measure anything or gather any kind of information.  Such a poll is a failure because it does not do it's job.

 

So, unless someone believes one answer is 100% and the other is 0%, the poll is inanswerable because they must choose both choices (which is impossible) or answer incompletely (which means the poll is worthless as a tool to gather information).

 

[Calm]

If you guys keep arguing about this, I will insist that you both enroll in a survey course and let the teacher decide which of you makes the most sense....

[3DOP]

Sorry cal...

 

Hi again bluebell...I don't understand.

 

If the question reads as you say bluebell, with the implication that it is about all atheists it would read like this. "Do you think [all] atheists know there is a God?"

 

If I think some do (any percentage) and some or one doesn't (any percentage), wouldn't I properly answer in the negative?

 

In what way is a negative answer inaccurate in that circumstance?

 

I would be saying. No, I do not think all atheists know there is a God. This would be because I think there are some atheists who do not know there is a God.

 

Rory

Edited December 22, 2013 by 3DOP

[bluebell]

Sorry cal...

 

Hi again bluebell...I don't understand.

 

If the question reads as you say bluebell, with the implication that it is about all atheists it would read like this. "Do you think [all] atheists know there is a God?"

 

If I think some do (any percentage) and some or one doesn't (any percentage), wouldn't I properly answer in the negative?

 

In what way is a negative answer inaccurate in that circumstance?

 

I would be saying. No, I do not think all atheists know there is a God. This would be because I think there are some atheists who do not know there is a God.

 

Rory

Think of it this way.

 

If you believe that 98 atheists believe there is a God, and two don't, how would you answer the poll?

[3DOP]

Think of it this way.

 

If you believe that 98 atheists believe there is a God, and two don't, how would you answer the poll?

Thank you for bearing with me bluebell.

 

If I understood the poll as strictly worded I would answer yes. 

 

If I understood the poll as you suggest, that it refers to all atheists, I would answer no.

[bluebell]

Thank you for bearing with me bluebell.

 

If I understood the poll as strictly worded I would answer yes. 

 

If I understood the poll as you suggest, that it refers to all atheists, I would answer no.

 

If you answer 'yes' then you have ignored and not reported your belief in the 2 who don't.  Anyone reading the results of the poll would not know that you actually believe some atheists don't believe in God.  The poll would not represent your actual beliefs.

 

If you answer no, then you have ignored your belief in the 98 who do.  Anyone reading the results of that poll would not know that you actually believe that some atheists do believe in God.  That poll also would not be an accurate representation of your actual beliefs.

 

[Five Solas]

Do you think LDS know that God, Who created ex nihilo, exists?  Like the atheists contemplated in this poll, LDS deny the existence of such a being, of course.  So it seems to me a fair and related question.  Perhaps even an insightful one...

;0)

 

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

 

--Romans 1:18-20

 

[Calm]

That you guys are even arguing still about what it says demonstrates it was a poorly constructed poll.

[bluebell]

Do you think LDS know that God, Who created ex nihilo, exists?  Like the atheists contemplated in this poll, LDS deny the existence of such a being, of course.  So it seems to me a fair and related question.  Perhaps even an insightful one...

;0)

 

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

 

--Romans 1:18-20

 

Is that scripture supposed to convict us of something?  

[bluebell]

That you guys are even arguing still about what it says demonstrates it was a poorly constructed poll.

 

I think this more a discussion than an argument.   

 

I'm not at all annoyed or anything like that with the conversation.  I don't think Rory is either.  I'm just not sure that he understands what i'm saying yet, which is why i keep trying to explain myself.  It's a silly discussion, for sure though, and not important at all in the scheme of things.  

[Five Solas]

Is that scripture supposed to convict us of something?  

Well, does it?  And if you felt it did--would that change anything for you?

:0)

[Calm]

I think this more a discussion than an argument.   

 

Using "argument" in terms of logic, not emotion. . Just in case I was misunderstood.

I am enjoying seeing others being as fastidious as I get sometimes over the construction of a survey, having worked on a few myself and tending to take a dim view of clumsy ones as they hark back to my college days and awkward class presentations and such.

I rarely vote in polls on the board and often avoid the thread entirely if there is something else to occupy my mind.

One of my many little prejudices, I suppose.

[3DOP]

Well ladies...

 

I am not yet satisfied that the poll question is so impossible as you are saying. I don't want to keep this going...tonight.

 

Back to work tomorrow...two very long days and then Merry Christmas. I'll peek in tomorrow night before the 49ers game and be thinking about how best to explain this. This is nuts...Heheheheh. I hate to say it, but what is the matter with you guys? Why doesn't anybody help me? Please...someone...tell them I am right.

[bluebell]

Well, does it? And if you felt it did--would that change anything for you?

:0)

It really doesn't.

The appearance of the word "made" in that verse doesn't make LDS belief on the subject unbiblical.

I can make ice cream, for example, or tell someone I made ice cream, and it's very valid for them NOT to assume I created it out of nothing, but that I used ingredients at my disposal to do so. In fact, I know of no interpretation of that word which must be defined as making something out if nothing.

If you choose to interpret that verse to support your beliefs you may do so, but its mere existence is not evidence that mine are wrong or that your's are right.

[bluebell]

Using "argument" in terms of logic, not emotion. . Just in case I was misunderstood.

I am enjoying seeing others being as fastidious as I get sometimes over the construction of a survey, having worked on a few myself and tending to take a dim view of clumsy ones as they hark back to my college days and awkward class presentations and such.

I rarely vote in polls on the board and often avoid the thread entirely if there is something else to occupy my mind.

One of my many little prejudices, I suppose.

 

I never gave surveys a second thought before that class, but it has totally ruined me.

[katherine the great]

Well ladies...

 

I am not yet satisfied that the poll question is so impossible as you are saying. I don't want to keep this going...tonight.

 

Back to work tomorrow...two very long days and then Merry Christmas. I'll peek in tomorrow night before the 49ers game and be thinking about how best to explain this. This is nuts...Heheheheh. I hate to say it, but what is the matter with you guys? Why doesn't anybody help me? Please...someone...tell them I am right.

Nope.  I'm with Blubes on this.