Evidence Brigham Young Was A Prophet

[pogi]

I have never issued a CFR, but other than another apostles opinion, what makes these statements true?

Brigham said one thing, SWK/BRM said another.  What reference actually shows that any of these doctrines is demonstrably true or false?

 

There is a plethora of references which suggest that our Father Elohim is a member of the Godhead.  There is a plethora of references which suggest that Jesus Christ is a member of the Godhead, and there is a plethora of references which suggest that the Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead.  Finally, there is a plethora of references which suggest that only these 3 form the Godhead. 

 

I will give you one which references many: http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/god-godhead?lang=eng#

 

Even Brigham Young distinguished between Elohim, Yahweh and Adam.  I have never seen one single quote which places Adam instead of Elohim in the Godhead, not even from Brigham Young. 

 

No reference, not even from scripture, actually proves any doctrine to be "demonstrably" true. 

Edited December 19, 2013 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

There is a plethora of references which suggest that our Father Elohim is a member of the Godhead.  There is a plethora of references which suggest that Jesus Christ is a member of the Godhead, and there is a plethora of references which suggest that the Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead.  Finally, there is a plethora of references which suggest that these 3 form the Godhead.

 

I will give you one which references many: http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/god-godhead?lang=eng#

 

Even Brigham Young distinguished between Elohim, Yahweh and Adam.  I have never seen one single quote which places Adam in the Godhead, not even from Brigham Young. 

 

Point one -

Jehovah (Yaweh/The LORD God) / Jesus - don't get me started on the doctrinal flaw with this connection.   Yaweh/The Lord is frequently addressed in the Old Testament describing characteristics that can't refer to a pre-mortal spirit Jesus.  But I know it is the accepted connection.  The excuse is made that whenever a reference can't refer to Jesus that it must refer to Heavenly Father, but the original Hebrew states Yaweh/Jehovah has attributes Jesus couldn't have.

 

Point two -

Adam in the Godhead:

"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken--HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do." - Brigham Young

 

"At meeting of School of the Prophets: President Young said Adam was Michael the Archangel, & he was the Father of Jesus Christ & was our God & that Joseph taught this principle." Journal of Wilford Woodruff, December 16, 1867.

 

"One of these is God the Father, Michael or Adam, from whose loins the earth is peopled, and who is now laboring for the redemption of his children." Franklin D. Richards, Millennial Star, Vol 17:785-786

 

Oh, and as far as the creation, check out the Endowment - which three beings (Godhead) created the earth?

[Tiki]

The underlined part is precisely where it differs.   You say it so nonchalantly, as if it is no big deal that Brigham essentially removed our Heavenly Father as our God and the center of our worship and put Adam in His position.  To hear you say that it is "not much" of a difference is astounding.  Maybe you missed it, Brigham said that Adam is the only God with which we have to do.  Are you really going to continue to stand behind and defend that statement?

So did Brigham Young stop worshipping or praying to our Father in Heaven in the name of our Savior?

Did he stop partaking of the Sacrament? Did he cease to teach faith in Christ, repentance, baptism by immersion by the proper priesthood authority of Jesus Christ and to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost? Did he discontinue temple worship with its ordinances which reveal the mission and purpose of our Savior, etc?

If he did not, then why do you accuse Brigham Young of teaching false doctrine when he himself never acted on what YOU believe he claimed? You are the one who is astounding. Just because you can't fathom the depth of his message, it's Brigham Young's fault, not yours? Don't you recall D&C 121:16-17?

[Alan]

For me, evidence that Brigham was God's prophet is the way he faced down an invasionary force comprising a full third of the entire U.S. military of the day and held them off long enough for cooler heads to prevail and for negotiations to be effected.

 

 

Then you have lots of prophets. Napoleon, Wellington, Washington, those brilliant military stratagists that held the Americans at bay in 1812, the commander of the British forces who re-took the Falklands, Osama Bin Laden for his heroics in harrying and then forcing the withrawal of the Russians from Afghanistan.............. the list goes on. Prophets everywhere!

[Avatar4321]

Brigham Young is a prophet because the Spirit testifies to it.

 

If you want to take his comments and create doctrine he taught contrary to multiple times, it's your perogative. It's not something I would do though. If there is something in his comments you don't understand, I suggest 1) Pray until you do or 2) focus on the teachings you do understand and which are clearly true.

 

I wonder if we would have as much trouble with what Brigham said if he had the opportunity to review and edit every sermon that he made before it went to print.

[Scott Lloyd]

Then you have lots of prophets. Napoleon, Wellington, Washington, those brilliant military stratagists that held the Americans at bay in 1812, the commander of the British forces who re-took the Falklands, Osama Bin Laden for his heroics in harrying and then forcing the withrawal of the Russians from Afghanistan.............. the list goes on. Prophets everywhere!

Cute, perhaps, but ineffective as an argument.

If I had said, "Brigham Young's success against Johnston's army proves all by itself that Brigham was a prophet," you might have a point. But I didn't, and you don't.

[ERayR]

Point two -

Adam in the Godhead:

"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken--HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do." - Brigham Young

 

"At meeting of School of the Prophets: President Young said Adam was Michael the Archangel, & he was the Father of Jesus Christ & was our God & that Joseph taught this principle." Journal of Wilford Woodruff, December 16, 1867.

 

"One of these is God the Father, Michael or Adam, from whose loins the earth is peopled, and who is now laboring for the redemption of his children." Franklin D. Richards, Millennial Star, Vol 17:785-786

 

Oh, and as far as the creation, check out the Endowment - which three beings (Godhead) created the earth?

 

As the chosen head of the human family Adam is our FATHER and in a very real sense he is God.  In order to progress any further we will be required to receive his approbation.  He is not God the Father, however.

[JLHPROF]

As the chosen head of the human family Adam is our FATHER and in a very real sense he is God.  In order to progress any further we will be required to receive his approbation.  He is not God the Father, however.

 

Well, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Franklin D. Richards, Heber C. Kimball, and many other prophets and apostles would disagree.

Whether they are right or other prophets and apostles like Spencer W. Kimball, Bruce R. McConkie and many others are right is simply a matter of personal testimony.  I was simply quoting the first group.  Others will quote the second group.

There really is no way to know without getting on our knees and asking (or waiting till we get there I suppose).

[Ahab]

Well, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Franklin D. Richards, Heber C. Kimball, and many other prophets and apostles would disagree.

Whether they are right or other prophets and apostles like Spencer W. Kimball, Bruce R. McConkie and many others are right is simply a matter of personal testimony.  I was simply quoting the first group.  Others will quote the second group.

There really is no way to know without getting on our knees and asking (or waiting till we get there I suppose).

That's just it.  What do you expect to see when you "get there"?  If you can manage to go from father to father, beginnng with your mortal father, you'll eventually get to Adam (the usual Adam we think of as the Adam with Eve), but then what?  Will you stop there thinking you've found the father of the whole human race for this planet?  He is that, don't cha know, but he also has a father, too. So then what?  Will you go to his father and figure he is the father of all of us?  He is too, don't cha know.  So then what?  How far will you go looking for fathers of fathers before you figure out there is no end to the number of our Fathers in heaven?

[Tiki]

That's just it.  What do you expect to see when you "get there"?  If you can manage to go from father to father, beginnng with your mortal father, you'll eventually get to Adam (the usual Adam we think of as the Adam with Eve), but then what?  Will you stop there thinking you've found the father of the whole human race for this planet?  He is that, don't cha know, but he also has a father, too. So then what?  Will you go to his father and figure he is the father of all of us?  He is too, don't cha know.  So then what?  How far will you go looking for fathers of fathers before you figure out there is no end to the number of our Fathers in heaven?

I believe the Fathers are also looking after their sons and daughters, which is also endless.

[pogi]

Point one -

Jehovah (Yaweh/The LORD God) / Jesus - don't get me started on the doctrinal flaw with this connection.   Yaweh/The Lord is frequently addressed in the Old Testament describing characteristics that can't refer to a pre-mortal spirit Jesus.  But I know it is the accepted connection.  The excuse is made that whenever a reference can't refer to Jesus that it must refer to Heavenly Father, but the original Hebrew states Yaweh/Jehovah has attributes Jesus couldn't have.

 

I was only quoting Brigham from his talk.  He distinguished between Elohim, Yahweh, and Michael.  Interesting how you reject this part of his talk which later prophets accept, and accept the parts which later prophets reject.

 

Point two -

Adam in the Godhead:

"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken--HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do." - Brigham Young

 

This doesn't necessarily place him in the Godhead in Brigham's mind.  It really is unclear what Brigham meant by this teaching.  When pressed later by many in the church, he refused to elaborate and pretty much told everybody to forget about it.  

 

Note that he did indeed distinguished between Elohim, "Yahweh", and Michael.  If Elohim, "Yahweh" and the Holy Ghost form the Godhead, where does Michael fit into that?

 

Oh, and as far as the creation, check out the Endowment - which three beings (Godhead) created the earth?

 

Does this mean you are giving the Holy Ghost the boot?

[pogi]

So did Brigham Young stop worshipping or praying to our Father in Heaven in the name of our Savior?

 

When he prayed to "Father" in Heaven, was he praying to Adam or Elohim?   

Edited December 20, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

Well, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Franklin D. Richards, Heber C. Kimball, and many other prophets and apostles would disagree.

Whether they are right or other prophets and apostles like Spencer W. Kimball, Bruce R. McConkie and many others are right is simply a matter of personal testimony.  I was simply quoting the first group.  Others will quote the second group.

There really is no way to know without getting on our knees and asking (or waiting till we get there I suppose).

 

Can you give me a reference for Heber C. Kimball?

[pogi]

That's just it.  What do you expect to see when you "get there"?  If you can manage to go from father to father, beginnng with your mortal father, you'll eventually get to Adam (the usual Adam we think of as the Adam with Eve), but then what?  Will you stop there thinking you've found the father of the whole human race for this planet?  He is that, don't cha know, but he also has a father, too. So then what?  Will you go to his father and figure he is the father of all of us?  He is too, don't cha know.  So then what?  How far will you go looking for fathers of fathers before you figure out there is no end to the number of our Fathers in heaven?

 

Yes, there are perhaps endless fathers in our lineage, but we are taught to only give glory to one.  Maybe that will change in the next life, I don't know, but for now we are to keep our eye single to only one Father.  I don't believe that one is Adam, but Elohim as taught by the church today.

[JLHPROF]

I was only quoting Brigham from his talk.  He distinguished between Elohim, Yahweh, and Michael.  Interesting how you reject this part of his talk which later prophets accept, and accept the parts which later prophets reject.

 

 

This doesn't necessarily place him in the Godhead in Brigham's mind.  It really is unclear what Brigham meant by this teaching.  When pressed later by many in the church, he refused to elaborate and pretty much told everybody to forget about it.  

 

Note that he did indeed distinguished between Elohim, "Yahweh", and Michael.  If Elohim, "Yahweh" and the Holy Ghost form the Godhead, where does Michael fit into that?

 

 

Does this mean you are giving the Holy Ghost the boot?

 

Not giving the Holy Ghost the boot, but saying that there was a different Godhead at creation than there is over the mortal probation.  That is evident from the references I provided.

[JLHPROF]

Can you give me a reference for Heber C. Kimball?

 

They're a little less explicit than others but he did say that:

 

"I have learned by experience that there is but one God that pertains to this people, and He is the God that pertains to this earth—the first man. That first man sent his own Son to redeem the world, to redeem his brethren; his life was taken, his blood shed, that our sins might be remitted."  JD 4:1

 

and

 

"We often sing, "This earth was once a garden place," where God our Father dwelt, and took possession and a stand that mankind will take who attain to that honor.....The religion of Jesus Christ, of angels, of Brigham, and of all good men is to take a care of and improve and adorn the earth as Adam did. When he planted the garden, he planted it with seeds he brought with him; and he also brought the animals from the earth he lived upon, where his Father dwelt."  JD 8:243-244

[krampus]

quote from here: http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/01/14/prophet-seer-and-revelator/

Perhaps out of a measure of discomfort or out of respect for his dead friend, Brigham consistently avoided calling himself a prophet, seer or revelator. Elsewhere he was recorded saying, ” I am not going to interpret dreams; for I don’t profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser;” (7) and “I have never particularly desired any man to testify publicly that I am a Prophet; nevertheless, if any man feels joy, in doing this, he shall be blest in it. I have never said that I am not a Prophet; but, if I am not, one thing is certain, I have been very profitable to this people.” (8)Michael Quinn has noted that it wasn’t a regularity to sustain Church leaders as prophets, seers and revelators during the life of Brigham Young, except for conferences in 1855 and 1857 (9). This may be somewhat underrepresented as Orson Pratt recorded the Saint Louis Stake conference as affirming Brigham’s status as a prophet, seer and revelator in 1854 and conferences in England were doing the same. (10)

If Brigham Young doesnt want me to call him a prophet, then I wont.

[pogi]

Not giving the Holy Ghost the boot, but saying that there was a different Godhead at creation than there is over the mortal probation.  That is evident from the references I provided.

 

That is not so evident to me from your reference that he was a member of the Godhead.  He was the "special servant of God and Christ." (from the link below) 

 

I just stumbled upon this from Mark E. Petersen in conference from 1980:

 

"One important assignment that awaits him is to be the angel to sound the trumpet heralding the resurrection of the dead. The scripture reads, “Behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth” (D&C 29:26).

 

What a marvelous calling for Adam, or Michael. But note that even in this assignment, which is yet future, he still will be an angel—the archangel, but an angel nevertheless."

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1980/10/adam-the-archangel?lang=eng

 

It sounds to me like you are saying that Adam was a member of the Godhead at creation, but was replaced by the Holy Ghost during mortal probation.  Is that right?  Does this mean that you are conceding that he is not a current member of the Godhead?

Edited December 21, 2013 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

 

It sounds to me like you are saying that Adam was a member of the Godhead at creation, but was replaced by the Holy Ghost during mortal probation.  Is that right?  Does this mean that you are conceding that he is not a current member of the Godhead?

 

I'm actually not saying anything personally.  I am simply explaining the Adam God doctrine that Brigham Young and other taught for decades.  These aren't necessarily my opinions, but in defense of Brigham Young these were hardly wild or out of context teachings.  He and the other leaders of the church taught and believed this and it was an integral part of Church doctrine for quite a few decades.  And they don't make Brigham any less a prophet (as the topic of this thread asks).

 

To summarize the teachings of this topic (and not my personal opinion) but to clarify:

Under the Adam God teachings the earth was created by Eloheim, Yaweh (Jehovah) and Michael as seen in the Temple.  All were resurrected beings and members of the Gods.  When the earth fell Michael gave up immortality and became Adam (thus an "arcangel" between Heaven & Earth).  Adam took his place as the Father, and with his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost form the current Godhead for this earth.  That's the doctrine in its simplest form. 

 

That's the "horrible", "crazy:" doctrine that along with polygamy and the priesthood ban make people question Brigham's prophetic mantle.  I simply like to say that it's just one doctrine and shouldn't be seen as such a horrible heresy or given any less respect than another prophet's teaching.