Conversation With Calvery Chapelite

[Anakin7]

    While at a local Costco where I work I happened to see a individual with a Bible in his hand and I asked him where he went to church and he stated he attended Calvery Chapel in Chino Hills Ca. I told him I was LDS and gave him my salvation soteriological journey/quest from birth to present along with my experiences with interfaith discussions. He immediatly stated that he has studied "Mormonism" extensivly and cannot believe anything a mormon says. He also stated that we do not believe that Jesus is the son of GOD that that he is the spirit brother of lucifer. Before I could reply he excused himself and walked away.

 

 

    We do not believe that Jesus is the SON OF GOD ?, pray tell. I can see Richard Moew and Greg Johnson shaking there heads !.

 

 

In His Debt/Grace

 

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited October 24, 2013 by Anakin7

[williamsmith]

That's the propaganda lies their wicked from the devil religion within good religion tells them....  Sadly so many falsely believe such is of God and truth, when it's nothing more than from the devil himself.

Only the devil perverts reality and truth about others, no matter whether we are actually true or not.  To lie so blatantly as these people do, who's following the "lie" again???

[Anakin7]

    I have a great relationship with 99.9% of Calvery Chapel Ministers/Lay members and have very seldom had one tell me what this individual stated.

 

 

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[K-2]

Some people only want to study "Mormonism" enough to convince themselves that it's wrong, and then they're done, and they think they then know all that's necessary to know about it.

[Anakin7]

Some people only want to study "Mormonism" enough to convince themselves that it's wrong, and then they're done, and they think they then know all that's necessary to know about it.

 

    True, as they would with any other faith that they study and come to the same conclusion with.

 

   In His Debt/Grace

   Anakin7

   LDS JEDI KNIGHT

 

 

Edited October 24, 2013 by Anakin7

[omni]

    While at a local Costco where I work I happened to see a individual with a Bible in his hand and I asked him where he went to church and he stated he attended Calvery Chapel in Chino Hills Ca. I told him I was LDS and gave him my salvation soteriological journey/quest from birth to present along with my experiences with interfaith discussions. He immediatly stated that he has studied "Mormonism" extensivly and cannot believe anything a mormon says. He also stated that we do not believe that Jesus is the son of GOD that that he is the spirit brother of lucifer. Before I could reply he excused himself and walked away.

 

 

    We do not believe that Jesus is the SON OF GOD ?, pray tell. I can see Richard Moew and Greg Johnson shaking there heads !.

 

 

In His Debt/Grace

 

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

 

Plain and simple ignorance.

[cdowis]

I think we are misunderstanding what he is saying:  "Mormons do not believe in MY Jesus.  He is not the brother of Satan, but God himself -- the creator of all things, including Satan."

 

The scribes and Pharaseed declared, "Jesus cannot be the Messiah.  He is from Nazareth, and we know that his father is a carpenter."

Edited October 24, 2013 by cdowis

[savedbygrace]

    While at a local Costco where I work I happened to see a individual with a Bible in his hand and I asked him where he went to church and he stated he attended Calvery Chapel in Chino Hills Ca. I told him I was LDS and gave him my salvation soteriological journey/quest from birth to present along with my experiences with interfaith discussions. He immediatly stated that he has studied "Mormonism" extensivly and cannot believe anything a mormon says. He also stated that we do not believe that Jesus is the son of GOD that that he is the spirit brother of lucifer. Before I could reply he excused himself and walked away.

 

 

    We do not believe that Jesus is the SON OF GOD ?, pray tell. I can see Richard Moew and Greg Johnson shaking there heads !.

 

 

In His Debt/Grace

 

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

I think this person meant that LDS do not believe in his perception of Jesus as the Son of God which is probably the traditional Trinitarian view. However I do recall the missionaries teaching that in the pre-existence Jesus and Lucifer were spirit brothers who both put forward a plan of salvation. The Father accepted Jesus' plan and rejected Lucifer's, resulting in a war in Heaven which was won by the Lord and Lucifer and a third of the host of heaven were cast out. He then became Satan and our enemy along with his fallen angels. Those spirits who fought with the Lord were sent into this life to begin their salvation journey. Those who sat on the sidelines, still were sent to earth but with the curse of  a black skin. Now it has been a lot of years but I believe that is how it went, so that would be the reason for the remark about Jesus being Lucifer's brother, which isn't entirely inaccurate, unless my mind is completely addled

[strappinglad]

There were 19 words in your post above that were posited by some but unaccepted by the Brethren. I'll let you guess which ones.

[EllenMaksoud]

    While at a local Costco where I work I happened to see a individual with a Bible in his hand and I asked him where he went to church and he stated he attended Calvery Chapel in Chino Hills Ca. I told him I was LDS and gave him my salvation soteriological journey/quest from birth to present along with my experiences with interfaith discussions. He immediatly stated that he has studied "Mormonism" extensivly and cannot believe anything a mormon says. He also stated that we do not believe that Jesus is the son of GOD that that he is the spirit brother of lucifer. Before I could reply he excused himself and walked away.

 

 

    We do not believe that Jesus is the SON OF GOD ?, pray tell. I can see Richard Moew and Greg Johnson shaking there heads !.

 

 

In His Debt/Grace

 

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

I feel bad now. I am not being snarky or sassy or trying to be funny.

 

I always thought that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. I have not been the student that I thought I was. How could I have missed that in 10 months of Missionary Discussions? I mean I don't believe in the trinity. I just thought that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings and I have stated that often enough here. It is confusing that I don't recall anyone challenging me on it.

 

Listen to Elder Holland at Conference in October 2007,  "The Only True God and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent".

Edited October 25, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[savedbygrace]

There were 19 words in your post above that were posited by some but unaccepted by the Brethren. I'll let you guess which ones.[/quote

[savedbygrace]

I am sorry Strappinglad, you've lost me, if its my post that you are referring to

[strappinglad]

sideline sitters/fence sitters = blacks .

[Calm]

The Father accepted Jesus' plan

Not quite, it was the Father's plan, Jesus accepted the role of carrying it out.

[Calm]

sideline sitters/fence sitters = blacks .

And to support this correction by strappinglad:

 

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/perkins-marvin/blacks-and-the-priesthood

 

Were There Any Fence-Sitters or Non-Valiant in the Pre-Existence?

No. How could there be? My wife said is probably because there were no fences. But just in case, let’s again look to the scriptures for answers.

3 Nephi 13:24. No man can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and Mammon.

And Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, “There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.”

Many have been directed to the scripture passage in Abraham 3 to try to justify this teaching of fence sitting. These statements make reference to the varying degrees of “loyalty” and tie it into this scripture to support that after Lucifer became angry at his plan being rejected and rebelled, that there were “fence sitters,” choosing the Lord, but not quite sure with their decision. Lot’s wife comes to my mind. However, if you look closely at the scripture, you’ll see something that I think will cause one to think this through a little more. Here is the scripture passage. What do you notice about it?

Abraham 3:22-28. Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. 27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first. 28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Notice that the discussion regarding varying degrees of valiancy or greatness as it is put, actually comes before the plan was laid out and presented, and before the rejection of the plan and rebellion by Satan, instead of after, as the tradition would have us believe.

One school of thought is that Blacks denied the Priesthood in the Pre-existence. To deny the Priesthood, would be to deny the very God himself. And for those that did, they did not receive a body, and were cast out with Satan and his hosts.

We can take counsel from one of the Apostles in regards to all that was said before 1978. That includes the things that are still being taught today, that stem from pre 1978 statements. Search out your own replies, and see if they have root therein.

 

 

And:

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_racial_issues/Blacks_and_the_priesthood/Repudiated_ideas/Neutral_in_%22war_in_heaven%22

 

Lorenzo Young asked if the Spirits of Negroes were Nutral in Heaven. He said someone said Joseph Smith said they were. President Young said No they were not. There was No Nutral spirits in Heaven at the time of the Rebelion. All took sides. He said if any one said that He Herd the Prophet Joseph Say that the spirits of the Blacks were Nutral in Heaven He would not Believe them for He herd Joseph Say to the Contrary. All spirits are pure that Come from the presence of God. The posterity of Cane are Black Because He Commit Murder. He killed Abel & God set a Mark upon his posterity But the spirits are pure that Enter their tabernacles & there will be a Chance for the redemption of all the Children of Adam Except the Sons of perdition

 

Edited October 25, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

 

 

I always thought that Jesus Christ was the Son of God.

Jesus is the Son of God in that he is the son of our Heavenly Father, the only Begotten in the Flesh (as well as the spirit as the rest of us are).  Jesus is God, not in the sense of being the same person/being as God the Father, but in serving as God to us, as a member of the Godhead...three individuals who each hold the 'office' or role of God for us.

 

The confusion comes in when "God" is used as a name rather that a title.  There is only one Thomas S Monson (well, there may be more, but let's just assume for the point that there aren't others in the world who have the same name), but there are many "Presidents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".  Many people may call Brother Monson simply "President", but that doesn't mean of course that he is the same person as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor or any others who have filled that role for us.  Another example often used (the Godhead is to the community of celestial beings or humanity as the First Presidency is to the Church) is that each member of the First Presidency is called "President"...but they are each also individuals, Monson, Eyring, and Uchtdorf.

 

http://www.lds.org/church/leaders/first-presidency

 

Thus there is only one God the Father.  There is only one God the Son.  There is only one God the Spirit.  Each of these have many names and titles, yet they are all "God" as members of the Godhead.  And thus you can say "Jesus is God" and "the Holy Spirit is God" and "Heavenly Father is God".

 

When LDS say "there is only one God" they may mean two things.  First, they may mean "there is only one God the Father".  But they may also be including the idea that Jesus is God just as God the Father is God and thus mean "there is only one God[head]"...there is only one community which is known as "God" and all members are thus "God" within that community...because they are of one heart, mind, purpose, etc.

 

If it is confusing, just think of it as Jesus having a multitude of names, many describing what roles he fills rather than being what we would call a "given" name.  For example Saviour, Redeemer, Messiah.  The below link is a collection of titles and names attributed to Christ in the scriptures...some of which may also be applied to the Father, just as my daughter may be called some of the same names and titles that I am over the years, such as "Ms. Robinson" and "Visiting Teacher".

 

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/christ-names-of

Edited October 25, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

Jesus is the Son of God in that he is the son of our Heavenly Father, the only Begotten in the Flesh (as well as the spirit as the rest of us are).  Jesus is God, not in the sense of being the same person/being as God the Father, but in serving as God to us, as a member of the Godhead...three individuals who each hold the 'office' or role of God for us.

 

The confusion comes in when "God" is used as a name rather that a title.  There is only one Thomas S Monson (well, there may be more, but let's just assume for the point that there aren't others in the world who have the same name), but there are many "Presidents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".  Many people may call Brother Monson simply "President", but that doesn't mean of course that he is the same person as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor or any others who have filled that role for us.

 

Thus there is only one God the Father.  There is only one God the Son.  There is only one God the Spirit.  Each of these have many names and titles, yet they are all "God" as members of the Godhead.

 

When LDS say "there is only one God" they may mean two things.  First, they may mean "there is only one God the Father".  But they may also be including the idea that Jesus is God just as God the Father is God and thus mean "there is only one God[head]"...there is only one community which is known as "God" and all members are thus "God" within that community...because they are of one heart, mind, purpose, etc.

 

If it is confusing, just think of it as Jesus having a multitude of names, many describing what roles he fills rather than being what we would call a "given" name.  For example Saviour, Redeemer, Messiah.  The below link is a collection of titles and names attributed to Christ in the scriptures...some of which may also be applied to the Father, just as my daughter may be called some of the same names and titles that I am over the years, such as "Ms. Robinson" and "Visiting Teacher".

 

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/christ-names-of

Thank you. I will keep studying and it is unclear why this is confusing now while it was not before.

[Calm]

Thank you. I will keep studying and it is unclear why this is confusing now while it was not before.

Sometimes things just get jumbled up due to hearing something in a different way and one's mind gets locked into thinking in that way so that it takes effort to straighten out how it really goes.

 

I find this happens most often for me in trying to figure out math and physics problems.  I am doing them just fine and then I think I've found a new twist that isn't really there, but then because I've adjusted my thinking to the new (but wrong) perception, I basically have to relearn how to do it right.

 

And it can be the simplest things too...

Edited October 25, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

Sometimes things just get jumbled up due to hearing something in a different way and one's mind gets locked into thinking in that way so that it takes effort to straighten out how it really goes.

 

I find this happens most often for me in trying to figure out math and physics problems.  I am doing them just fine and then I think I've found a new twist that isn't really there, but then because I've adjusted my thinking to the new (but wrong) perception, I basically have to relearn how to do it right.

Thank you. I am about to go to bed. Is it ok if I write this out and send my thoughts to you to see if I have it clear again?

[Calm]

PS:  I added a few things to my post that weren't quoted in your response.  I don't know if they will be helpful or not, but you might want to reread it just in case.  

 

Sure, no problem (about writing it out).

 

I would suggest if you are still confused, reading the Gospel Principles first two chapters and then maybe the scripture guide and references about the Godhead and names and titles of the Father and the Son.

 

add-on:

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng

 

Make that first three chapters of the GP manual linked to here plus chapters 7 and 8 and maybe 47 (because that deals with the celestial community that we may become a part of).

Edited October 25, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

The second part of this lesson may be helpful seeing how LDS teach Christ's role in the scriptures as Jehovah as well as Jesus:

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-teacher-resource-manual/the-gospel-according-to-saint-john/john-9-10?lang=eng

 

Though as a caution, there may be times that our use of Jehovah as a name for Christ (and Eloheim as a name for Heavenly Father) is inaccurate and the scriptures may be referring to the Father when it says Jehovah or perhaps both of them (and the same with Eloheim).  LDS may be reading back into the scriptures our use of Jehovah for Christ when the ancient writers of the scriptures didn't mean it that way.

 

It is generally taught that Heavenly Father appears solely for the purpose of introducing his Son and thus all other types of appearances of God to men throughout the scriptures are the Son....but whether or not that is true, it may not be how the writers of the scriptures understood things.  They may have believed they were seeing the Father when they saw the Son.  I am not sure we can know at this point for sure.  I need to study to see if this teaching of Heavenly Father introducing the Son is directly based on revelation or perhaps more reasoned from the scriptures and other revelation rather than being revelation itself.

 

Another lesson that might be helpful (it is a talk by Pres. J Reuben Clark, Jr.):

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/print/the-life-and-teachings-of-jesus-and-his-apostles/section-1-the-great-jehovah-comes-to-earth/chapter-3-the-son-of-the-eternal-father?lang=eng

 

Section 1 here may be helpful:

 

https://si.lds.org/bc/seminary/content/library/manuals/institute-student/new-testament-student-manual_eng.pdf

Edited October 25, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/testimonies-of-him/articles/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent

 

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/son-of-god

 

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/jesus-christ-son-of-god

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-4-jesus-christ-the-son-of-god?lang=eng

 

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/god-godhead?lang=eng

 

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/jesus-christ?lang=eng

Edited October 25, 2013 by calmoriah

[savedbygrace]

And to support this correction by strappinglad:

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/perkins-marvin/blacks-and-the-priesthood

And:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_racial_issues/Blacks_and_the_priesthood/Repudiated_ideas/Neutral_in_%22war_in_heaven%22

[savedbygrace]

Thank you Calmoriah for the references and clarification. I have to say though that I was taught that negroes sat on the fence during the war in heaven . This was why they were cursed with a black skin and could not hold the priesthood. It must have been commonly taught otherwise there would have been no need for it to have been addressed as you have shown.

[Tacenda]

Thank you Calmoriah for the references and clarification. I have to say though that I was taught that negroes sat on the fence during the war in heaven . This was why they were cursed with a black skin and could not hold the priesthood. It must have been commonly taught otherwise there would have been no need for it to have been addressed as you have shown.

I was taught that as well, looks like it was doctrine, no doubt in my mind and always knew it to be, otherwise that'd make our church racist by opinion only.