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New Order Mormons?


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Not really. It all depends ya know. If you are upfront to everyone (including your children) about how you feel, no problem. If you are pretending to be a Mormon while teaching classes or sitting in a judgment position, If you are pretending to be a Mormon to keep your job, if you are lying to your children, spouse or Bishop, I meant every word of it.

Christ said in Matthew 10:

34 Think not that I am come to send apeace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s afoes shall be they of his own bhousehold.

37 He that aloveth father or mother bmore than me is not worthy of me: and he that cloveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his across, and followeth after me, is not bworthy of me.

These people, most or many still have testimonies of our Saviour, so I think Christ would be ok with them. They are not Sons of Perdition yet either. Think of them as lost sheep, not sheeps in wolves clothing, who don't want to lose their spouse or families to divorce, which has happened, not often mind you, but the threat alone is enough to hold them back. Now think of them as so many in the church that have testimony issues, remember if you can, that we're constantly told to work on our testimonies, so apparently many in the church can and have this problem, it's not only a NOM situation, though they have probably burst through to a new level of doubt than most. Also, remember we are all sinners, most had been loyal to the churches teachings, I don't think the scripture you quoted had anything to do with that, but everything to do with having faith that Jesus is our Lord and Saviour.
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Most people I know who consider themselves "new order" Mormons fit Duncan's description: for different reasons, they find value in their membership in the church, even if they don't really believe everything the church teaches. In fact, many NOMs I know don't believe in the church's teachings at all, regardless of allegory. But they stay because they believe they should.

By that definition, I'm a NOM, but I don't find a lot of value in the church at this point in my life. I just go so my wife doesn't have to go by herself.

 

Perhaps you are similar to a NOM by definition, but you aren't really one by association.  The idea of 'New Order' suggests an organization of people, and I don't think you really consider yourself part of a 'movement' of sorts (am I right?).  And so in a sense, I don't think you'd be a NOM... just a cultural Mormon.  That's my opinion though.

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Wait, I thought you live not far from where I grew up. I never felt particularly discriminated against as a Mormon, other than some schoolyard taunts of "Shouldn't they take the second 'm' out of Mormon?"

 

It kinda depends.  SoCal isn't entirely Conservative.  Especially in some of the Hollywood/LA areas.

 

Sounds like a great church you belong to: no doctrine, no hierarchy, just people following the spirit and wishing you well when you leave. I'm not sure I'm familiar with that one.

 

There's some in the church who adhere to the approach, and others who don't.  It's not a universal action in the church, imho.

 

In any case, I think mfb is right in the sense that there are not many people who go to church despite not believing in it.  Most of the time they fall into inactivity, at least in my experiences.  However, that doesn't mean cases don't exist (for example, yours).  And it's entirely your choice what you want to do.  If you want to stay for family reasons, that's your choice.  If you don't want to stay, that's your choice too.  Just be willing to live and be responsible for your own choice, that's the big thing I think.

 

Ultimately you are the only person who can decide what you will do.  As I am the only one who can decide what I will do.  That leave us stuck in certain cases of communication, naturally.  But it also gives us a bit of freedom.

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I used to get upset when people called me an apostate, as it connotes someone who hates the church and wishes it ill.

 

I sure hope people haven't used that to describe you.  As you said, apostate implies bitter will.  I don't see bitterness in you.  So sorry if people have done that.

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That is a statement made by so many people for so many things that are unethical or down right evil it's unbelievable. It's a cop out. Do you think that will hold up on Judgment Day?  Of course If you don't believe in Judgment Day it's no problem. 

 

Let me put it another way: Would I sacrifice my own salvation for my family? Yes, a thousand times over.

 

How odd that going to church is considered evil or unethical. I must have missed that part of Sunday School.

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It kinda depends.  SoCal isn't entirely Conservative.  Especially in some of the Hollywood/LA areas.

My hometown is pretty liberal. These days people know it as the place where the Kardashians live (or some of them, anyway).

 

There's some in the church who adhere to the approach, and others who don't.  It's not a universal action in the church, imho.

Each person's approach to the church is different.

 

In any case, I think mfb is right in the sense that there are not many people who go to church despite not believing in it.

That hasn't been my experience.

Most of the time they fall into inactivity, at least in my experiences.  However, that doesn't mean cases don't exist (for example, yours).  And it's entirely your choice what you want to do.  If you want to stay for family reasons, that's your choice.  If you don't want to stay, that's your choice too.  Just be willing to live and be responsible for your own choice, that's the big thing I think.

Of course. I go to protect my wife, period. If someone thinks that's wrong, I don't much care.

 

Ultimately you are the only person who can decide what you will do.  As I am the only one who can decide what I will do.  That leave us stuck in certain cases of communication, naturally.  But it also gives us a bit of freedom.

My bishop and high priests group leader know where I stand. I think I'd feel more of a hypocrite if I were pretending to believe. That said, I'm not in a situation in which I feel I have to pretend. Other people might. That's why I don't judge such things.

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I sure hope people haven't used that to describe you.  As you said, apostate implies bitter will.  I don't see bitterness in you.  So sorry if people have done that.

No worries. I choose to find it hilarious, not offensive.

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Yes they most certainly are.

 

But if you prefer a different metaphor: they are trying to have one foot on either side of the stream, so that they can eat from the tree without getting too far from the Great and Spacious Building.

 

I hope they're good at doing the splits.

Regards,

Pahoran

I like that metaphor. I'll have to remember that.

Earlier, I made the observation that I think the process of leaving the church has made me a better person. I didn't explain why, and some have interpreted what I was as me thinking I'm better than Mormons.

I did not mean that at all. I'll try to explain: when I left the church, I was forced to dig deep down inside of myself to determine what I really believed. I think I'd gotten in the habit of just accepting what I was taught by the church without thinking about it much. That's not a slam on the church but rather a reflection of my own personality. Call it trust in the church or just laziness, or a combination of the two, but that's how my thought processes went.

These days I don't have people or institutions that I trust to the level I trusted the church, so I have to work things out for myself. So, in a strange way, I think I'm a better, more moral person for having lost that trust.

Does that mean I'm better than Mormons? No, it just means that I think I'm a better John than I was before. I'm still a work in progress, and if I ever say I'm a "good" person, that will just show how much I have to learn about humility.

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This above all- to thine own self be true,

And it must follow, as the night the day,

Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Farewell. My blessing season this in thee!

Shakespear's Hamlet

I think Shakespeare must have had a sense of humor because, of all the characters he could have chosen, he used obsequious, conniving, phony Polonius to deliver this remarkable piece of wisdom.

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Yes they most certainly are.

 

But if you prefer a different metaphor: they are trying to have one foot on either side of the stream, so that they can eat from the tree without getting too far from the Great and Spacious Building.

 

I hope they're good at doing the splits.

Regards,

Pahoran

 

I don't know whether to kick you or give you a rep point.  Maybe both.

 

The thing is, I perfectly understand the problem of being a new DISbeliever amongst a family and friendship circle of believers.  I can understand it even though I am a believer.  Disbelievers do not necessarily have joy in their new disbelief, and may even be quite dismayed -- and unwilling to break the mood of those around them, just because they still have a charitable feeling towards others and are not desirous of causing pain.

 

You seem to be convinced that someone in that unenviable position is a flaming hypocrite.  In a sense, they may be a hypocrite, but it isn't necessarily an egregious form of hypocrisy.  It could be egregious, but it isn't necessarily so.

 

But on the other hand, maybe a new disbeliever should proclaim to everyone he knows that he has decided it's all a myth and to stop trying to drag him to church.  And by the way, where's my beer?

 

What would you do if you suddenly decided the Church was not true?  It would be a tough row to hoe, in my view.  I have compassion for someone in that position -- and I am going to suggest that you ought to have some, too.

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Another experience in my life that has made me a better person was the deaths of my younger brothers. I learned a lot about myself and about life, and even though I wish every day that I hadn't gone through that, I can see that I learned from it. Does that mean I think I'm "better" than people who haven't had siblings killed in a car accident? No, it doesn't. And my having learned things because of my crisis of faith doesn't mean I'm better than people who haven't gone through such a crisis.

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My hometown is pretty liberal. These days people know it as the place where the Kardashians live (or some of them, anyway).

 

Haha, I don't follow the news much, so I don't really know which town it is, but I'll trust you on that description.

 

 

 

 Each person's approach to the church is different.

 

Yep!  And a good thing too.

 

 

 

That hasn't been my experience.

 

Mmm... we have different experiences then.  Perhaps it just depends on the ward.

 

 

 

Of course. I go to protect my wife, period. If someone thinks that's wrong, I don't much care.

 

Good!

 

 

 

My bishop and high priests group leader know where I stand. I think I'd feel more of a hypocrite if I were pretending to believe. That said, I'm not in a situation in which I feel I have to pretend. Other people might. That's why I don't judge such things.

 

I don't see where the problem is then, to be honest.  My Dad is a non-member, and he attends church with my mom.  I hope he'll join eventually, but he hasn't really shown a ton of interest.  I have no problem with him attending.  Similarly, I would have no problem with you attending either.  In fact, I'd prefer you attend because people's hearts change.  And there may be a day when you will wish to believe again.  Or maybe not.  But yeah, I can't see why people would not want you to attend =p.  Attending brings blessings, some physical, some spiritual.

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No worries. I choose to find it hilarious, not offensive.

 

Haha, that's good.  One of the biggest lessons I've learned from God is that taking offense doesn't help situations, it just makes them worse, and makes you not as happy as you might have been had you just let it pass.  I've had too many experiences where I've wanted to get angry, but I have to remind myself, contention and revelation are not compatible (something my stake patriarch said once).  Ultimately, I've just found that happiness and argument don't fit together.  That doesn't mean you can't disagree with people, but to argue doesn't' really bring many blessings to you or to the lives of others.  So I'm glad you let those things go =).

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I like that metaphor. I'll have to remember that.

Earlier, I made the observation that I think the process of leaving the church has made me a better person. I didn't explain why, and some have interpreted what I was as me thinking I'm better than Mormons.

I did not mean that at all. I'll try to explain: when I left the church, I was forced to dig deep down inside of myself to determine what I really believed. I think I'd gotten in the habit of just accepting what I was taught by the church without thinking about it much. That's not a slam on the church but rather a reflection of my own personality. Call it trust in the church or just laziness, or a combination of the two, but that's how my thought processes went.

These days I don't have people or institutions that I trust to the level I trusted the church, so I have to work things out for myself. So, in a strange way, I think I'm a better, more moral person for having lost that trust.

Does that mean I'm better than Mormons? No, it just means that I think I'm a better John than I was before. I'm still a work in progress, and if I ever say I'm a "good" person, that will just show how much I have to learn about humility.

 

Haha, the funny thing is, I've had a similar experience, while growing closer to the church.  I've learned not to obey the authority that people always insist on when they believe they are right, and others are wrong, and instead listen to the Spirit.  Some people think that makes me kinda wierd, because ultimately it means I occasionally doubt a lot of things other people trust.  But ultimately I've figured out what I truly valued, and that is the accompaniment of the Spirit and the capability to participate in the wonderful vision for the future that I see that our God has.  I love that vision.  More than anything else that the World has to offer.  So in a sense, I'm willing to sacrifice other things that might be valuable for that vision.  For the ability to participate in it.  It's not always the easiest thing, but I know it will be worth it in the end.  And it makes me happier than I could be anywhere else.

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Haha, the funny thing is, I've had a similar experience, while growing closer to the church. I've learned not to obey the authority that people always insist on when they believe they are right, and others are wrong, and instead listen to the Spirit. Some people think that makes me kinda wierd, because ultimately it means I occasionally doubt a lot of things other people trust. But ultimately I've figured out what I truly valued, and that is the accompaniment of the Spirit and the capability to participate in the wonderful vision for the future that I see that our God has. I love that vision. More than anything else that the World has to offer. So in a sense, I'm willing to sacrifice other things that might be valuable for that vision. For the ability to participate in it. It's not always the easiest thing, but I know it will be worth it in the end. And it makes me happier than I could be anywhere else.

Are you on your mission now Tao? This is good stuff you're sharing. :)

BTW, thanks for sharing your opinion on non believers or strugglers, attending church and that being ok! It bothers me that some on here say that that is being hypocritical. If I were asked if I believe everything in the church by someone in my ward, I would tell the truth, but no one has, and I venture to say it rarely happens. And my current calling in the ward is to help a special needs boy the entire time in Primary, which IMO, was inspired by members of my bishopric, who were probably aware of my testimony issues, that I shared with my previous bishop turned SP. If they hadn't asked if I could, no mention of it being a calling, help this incredible individual, I doubt I'd even go to the other meetings after Sacrament meeting. I even said this to the mother of this boy I help, I told her if it weren't for my helping her son, I'd be inactive, don't know how she took it. But think it's not out of the ordinary for some to complain about going to church.

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Are you on your mission now Tao? This is good stuff you're sharing. :)

BTW, thanks for sharing your opinion on non believers or strugglers, attending church and that being ok! It bothers me that some on here say that that is being hypocritical. If I were asked if I believe everything in the church by someone in my ward, I would tell the truth, but no one has, and I venture to say it rarely happens. And my current calling in the ward is to help a special needs boy the entire time in Primary, which IMO, was inspired by members of my bishopric, who were probably aware of my testimony issues, that I shared with my previous bishop turned SP. If they hadn't asked if I could, no mention of it being a calling, help this incredible individual, I doubt I'd even go to the other meetings after Sacrament meeting. I even said this to the mother of this boy I help, I told her if it weren't for my helping her son, I'd be inactive, don't know how she took it.

That's a great calling. I've always thought it more of a blessing than service to work with the disabled.

But think it's not out of the ordinary for some to complain about going to church.

I don't complain. My teenagers do, though. :)

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Are you on your mission now Tao? This is good stuff you're sharing. :)

 

 

Nope, not yet.  Monday.  I'm trying to get in the Spirit though.  And it's weird, because I know God is helping me do it.  There's things I used to enjoy which were somewhat a waste of time that I don't enjoy doing now.  God's really doing his best to get me ready. =D

 

 

 

BTW, thanks for sharing your opinion on non believers or strugglers, attending church and that being ok! It bothers me that some on here say that that is being hypocritical. If I were asked if I believe everything in the church by someone in my ward, I would tell the truth, but no one has, and I venture to say it rarely happens. And my current calling in the ward is to help a special needs boy the entire time in Primary, which IMO, was inspired by members of my bishopric, who were probably aware of my testimony issues, that I shared with my previous bishop turned SP. If they hadn't asked if I could, no mention of it being a calling, help this incredible individual, I doubt I'd even go to the other meetings after Sacrament meeting. I even said this to the mother of this boy I help, I told her if it weren't for my helping her son, I'd be inactive, don't know how she took it. But think it's not out of the ordinary for some to complain about going to church.

 

I think your right; I don't know anybody who knows everything quite yet.  We all still have things we are working on and working towards, and things we struggle with.  And we slowly hustle our ways towards our goal, sometimes getting sidetracked, sometimes not.  I don't want people to think the church is for perfect people; it isn't.  It's full of normal fallible humans who make mistakes and don't get things right.  And yet, for normal fallible humans, what a marvelous church it is.  I've met so many wonderful people in it.  It brings out the best that people have =).

 

I'm glad though, that they gave you that calling and responsibility.  There's something special about getting one.  It really makes a difference in your life, and in the lives of others.  I know what you mean about having difficulties attending the meetings... part of the reason I go to Sunday School is because of the wonderful teachers I have.  Without them, I doubt I would have reactivated and stayed attending church.  There's something about being around other people who are wonderful that helps.  And serving them in the ways that you can helps even more.  =)  And yeah, it's very easy to complain about going to church.  I did it for a while.  And stopped attending for a while.  But I have to admit, once you get into it, it's totally worth it.  It may be hard to get up that early, and get dressed, and spend 3 hours of your day (or more) doing things.  It may be boring, listen to people speak about things that have already been spoken before.  It may even be hard when people say things you may disagree with.  But it is so totally worth it so you can feel that Spirit, and feel the joy of living the vision, and of being the person who lives the lifestyle which makes you happy.

 

In any case, I'm very glad you are helping this boy.  You probably know I have Asperger's, and when I was young, I might have been that boy.  So thank you.  And thank you for attending church.  Regardless of your doubts, you make a wonderful person and member, contributing to your ward.  And perhaps the time will come, that through your service, things that may have bothered you will leave you, and you will have peace in your heart, and not worry.  I wish you the best of luck in life and the life to come =).

 

-TAO

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Nope, not yet.  Monday.  I'm trying to get in the Spirit though.  And it's weird, because I know God is helping me do it.  There's things I used to enjoy which were somewhat a waste of time that I don't enjoy doing now.  God's really doing his best to get me ready. =D

Best of luck to you. I'm sure you'll do a great job.

 

 

I think your right; I don't know anybody who knows everything quite yet.  We all still have things we are working on and working towards, and things we struggle with.  And we slowly hustle our ways towards our goal, sometimes getting sidetracked, sometimes not.  I don't want people to think the church is for perfect people; it isn't.  It's full of normal fallible humans who make mistakes and don't get things right.  And yet, for normal fallible humans, what a marvelous church it is.  I've met so many wonderful people in it.  It brings out the best that people have =).

Mormons I know are wonderful people, and it's clear to me that service to others through callings is part of what makes them who they are.

 

I'm glad though, that they gave you that calling and responsibility.  There's something special about getting one.  It really makes a difference in your life, and in the lives of others.  I know what you mean about having difficulties attending the meetings... part of the reason I go to Sunday School is because of the wonderful teachers I have.  Without them, I doubt I would have reactivated and stayed attending church.  There's something about being around other people who are wonderful that helps.  And serving them in the ways that you can helps even more.  =)  And yeah, it's very easy to complain about going to church.  I did it for a while.  And stopped attending for a while.  But I have to admit, once you get into it, it's totally worth it.  It may be hard to get up that early, and get dressed, and spend 3 hours of your day (or more) doing things.  It may be boring, listen to people speak about things that have already been spoken before.  It may even be hard when people say things you may disagree with.  But it is so totally worth it so you can feel that Spirit, and feel the joy of living the vision, and of being the person who lives the lifestyle which makes you happy.

 

In any case, I'm very glad you are helping this boy.  You probably know I have Asperger's, and when I was young, I might have been that boy.  So thank you.  And thank you for attending church.  Regardless of your doubts, you make a wonderful person and member, contributing to your ward.  And perhaps the time will come, that through your service, things that may have bothered you will leave you, and you will have peace in your heart, and not worry.  I wish you the best of luck in life and the life to come =).

 

-TAO

I enjoyed the last calling I had, which was serving as a translator at a free medical clinic in Provo. It was great helping people who needed help and who could not otherwise communicate with the doctors. And as a bonus, I met Frederick G. Williams, a distant cousin, who put me in touch with our family organization. They haven't asked me to do anything here, so I'm not currently doing anything in the church.

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Best of luck to you. I'm sure you'll do a great job.

 

Thanks!  I hope so too!  Gotta work on some stuff before I go, but hey, who doesn't? =).

 

 

 

Mormons I know are wonderful people, and it's clear to me that service to others through callings is part of what makes them who they are.

 

Don't disclude yourself.  Service makes you who you are too =).

 

 

 

I enjoyed the last calling I had, which was serving as a translator at a free medical clinic in Provo. It was great helping people who needed help and who could not otherwise communicate with the doctors. And as a bonus, I met Frederick G. Williams, a distant cousin, who put me in touch with our family organization. They haven't asked me to do anything here, so I'm not currently doing anything in the church.

 

Ah man, that's cool!  I've had a lot of friends who have had very unusual instances where things happen to put them in contact with distant unknown family members.  It's pretty awesome.  In any case, if you don't have a calling, and you have the time, you might try serving at the Bishop's Storehouse.  I have found that the Bishop's storehouse is one of the coolest places you can serve.  And they love getting help, so don't be afraid to just 'drop in'.  =)

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Let me put it another way: Would I sacrifice my own salvation for my family? Yes, a thousand times over.

 

How odd that going to church is considered evil or unethical. I must have missed that part of Sunday School.

 

Let me put it another way: Would I sacrifice my own salvation for my family? Yes, a thousand times over.

 

How odd that going to church is considered evil or unethical. I must have missed that part of Sunday School.

Now you're twisting my words, that is not what I said and you know it.

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Very simply they are Mormons who like the british band "new Order", Blue Monday was their big hit. They have meetings where they play the song and serve herbal tea and light refreshments

 

 

To be fair, New Order Mormons do believe in true faith, and while they typically have lacked belief that they day would ever come when they'd see the light of the morning sun, they do sometimes experience an extraordinary sense of liberty.

 

They tend to be a little less theistic than the Depeche Mode Mormons, who go against Elder McConkie's views on the subject and believe in a personal relationship with Jesus and warn against blasphemy and joking about sacred things. 

 

And then there's the Erasure Mormons who, like the Rodney Dangerfield Mormons, just want a little respect.  They also teach that we should live for the day, or the way it should be.

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Another experience in my life that has made me a better person was the deaths of my younger brothers. I learned a lot about myself and about life, and even though I wish every day that I hadn't gone through that, I can see that I learned from it. Does that mean I think I'm "better" than people who haven't had siblings killed in a car accident? No, it doesn't. And my having learned things because of my crisis of faith doesn't mean I'm better than people who haven't gone through such a crisis.

Sincere condolences on your loss, John.  Easy for me to point this out, but it is said that what doesn't kill one makes one stronger.  Best wishes. :)

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