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Evangelical Anti Mormon Success?


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It's not laughable, but when someone like Shawn asks you that, most LDS understand that it's a trick question.

The way that LDS define being saved is different than how most other Christians define it. For an LDS person, being saved is the equivalent of being exalted-living with God in the Celestial kingdom and becoming joint-heirs with Christ.

Has that happened to you yet Tacenda? Are you exalted? Are you a joint-heir with Christ, having gained all that the Father has? It hasn't happened to me yet. If a person is still alive and muddling through mortality, it hasn't happened to them yet either.

So, it's very valid (and not at all a sign of confusion or bondage) to answer 'not yet' to the 'are you saved' question.

But, most LDS people also realize that people like Shawn are going to try to use that very valid answer against them, so instead of trying to answer the question using the LDS definition of 'saved', they might try to answer using the non-LDS Christian definition.

When a non-LDS Christian asks another person whether or not they are 'saved' they are asking them whether or not they have accepted Jesus and been justified through His Atonement. They are asking whether or not, if they died that day, they would be eligible for eternal life.

Has that happened to you yet Tacenda? Do you have faith in Christ? Do you repent of your sins? Did you enter in at the straight gait which leads to eternal life? Do you try to follow Him (which is just another way to ask whether or not you try to obey His commandments)? I have and I do. Most other active LDS members have and do as well.

So, using that definition, it's very valid for an LDS person to answer 'yes' to the 'are you saved' question.

And so you see that it is equally valid for an LDS person to answer both 'yes' and 'no' to Shawn's inquiry. Which leaves LDS callers into a bit of a predicament. They can either answer 'no' and be true to their understanding of the word 'saved', or answer 'yes', and realize that most of the non-LDS people listening won't really understand what they are actually saying (because they don't understand the word the same way that the LDS caller does).

And this is why it's a trick question-

Shawn knows that LDS don't understand the word 'saved' like non-LDS Christians do and so he knows that when he asks an LDS person if they are saved, they are going to either answer:

1)'no' (which would be a dream come true because it plays right into his hands),

2)'yes' (which will give him a chance to bring up all sorts of LDS beliefs about temples and obedience and go on and on about how can an LDS person be saved right after baptism if going to the temple is necessary for salvation, blah, blah, blah, crap which has nothing to do with the question but he knows will confuse his listeners and again, play right into his hands),

3)or they will try to explain LDS beliefs about salvation and exaltation and clarify their answer so that it's as complete and truthful as possible (which will allow Shawn to announce that they are really just 'hemming and hawing' so obviously they are still in bondage')

In reality, no matter what an LDS person answers to that question, Shawn is going to use it against them, and he knows he can because his audience likely already agrees with him about Mormons anyway, and those who don't won't think critically enough about the question, or know enough doctrinally about it, to see it as the trickery that it really is.

You, being LDS, should be able to see it but since you have managed to go most of your life without really understanding the doctrines that LDS teach (and I don't mean that in a snarky way or as an insult), it's understandable that he was able to pull you in as well.

I admit I did get sucked in. Still balancing it all out. The LDS side weighs out because of the sweet spirit they exude. The evangelical person, I guess, do not try as hard to be righteous, in their minds they are sinners and need a Saviour. Maybe even feel like if they are perfect they won't need Him as much. But there again, I'm a little off in my thinking lately. But this is how I see it in my observations. But you are privy to his baiting the LDS crowd, good for you. All my LDS life I've seen members or associates, sort of make fun of the "I'm saved" Christian. But in your reply you even said we can say that, but apparently not out loud. Unless I'm not reading your reply right. But one thing is for sure, you and others are far more mature in the gospel than I am, whether you 20 or 80, doesn't matter.
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It's not laughable, but when someone like Shawn asks you that, most LDS understand that it's a trick question.

The way that LDS define being saved is different than how most other Christians define it. For an LDS person, being saved is the equivalent of being exalted-living with God in the Celestial kingdom and becoming joint-heirs with Christ.

Has that happened to you yet Tacenda? Are you exalted? Are you a joint-heir with Christ, having gained all that the Father has? It hasn't happened to me yet. If a person is still alive and muddling through mortality, it hasn't happened to them yet either.

So, it's very valid (and not at all a sign of confusion or bondage) to answer 'not yet' to the 'are you saved' question.

But, most LDS people also realize that people like Shawn are going to try to use that very valid answer against them, so instead of trying to answer the question using the LDS definition of 'saved', they might try to answer using the non-LDS Christian definition.

When a non-LDS Christian asks another person whether or not they are 'saved' they are asking them whether or not they have accepted Jesus and been justified through His Atonement. They are asking whether or not, if they died that day, they would be eligible for eternal life.

Has that happened to you yet Tacenda? Do you have faith in Christ? Do you repent of your sins? Did you enter in at the straight gait which leads to eternal life? Do you try to follow Him (which is just another way to ask whether or not you try to obey His commandments)? I have and I do. Most other active LDS members have and do as well.

So, using that definition, it's very valid for an LDS person to answer 'yes' to the 'are you saved' question.

And so you see that it is equally valid for an LDS person to answer both 'yes' and 'no' to Shawn's inquiry. Which leaves LDS callers into a bit of a predicament. They can either answer 'no' and be true to their understanding of the word 'saved', or answer 'yes', and realize that most of the non-LDS people listening won't really understand what they are actually saying (because they don't understand the word the same way that the LDS caller does).

And this is why it's a trick question-

Shawn knows that LDS don't understand the word 'saved' like non-LDS Christians do and so he knows that when he asks an LDS person if they are saved, they are going to either answer:

1)'no' (which would be a dream come true because it plays right into his hands),

2)'yes' (which will give him a chance to bring up all sorts of LDS beliefs about temples and obedience and go on and on about how can an LDS person be saved right after baptism if going to the temple is necessary for salvation, blah, blah, blah, crap which has nothing to do with the question but he knows will confuse his listeners and again, play right into his hands),

3)or they will try to explain LDS beliefs about salvation and exaltation and clarify their answer so that it's as complete and truthful as possible (which will allow Shawn to announce that they are really just 'hemming and hawing' so obviously they are still in bondage')

In reality, no matter what an LDS person answers to that question, Shawn is going to use it against them, and he knows he can because his audience likely already agrees with him about Mormons anyway, and those who don't won't think critically enough about the question, or know enough doctrinally about it, to see it as the trickery that it really is.

You, being LDS, should be able to see it but since you have managed to go most of your life without really understanding the doctrines that LDS teach (and I don't mean that in a snarky way or as an insult), it's understandable that he was able to pull you in as well.

Wow BlueBell, maybe there is some history here that I'm not privy to, but that seemed to be a somewhat uncharitable and rude response to Tacenda's post.

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Serious question, I know you can't read minds but I am asking for an answer based on your personal experience with those who see themselves as "saved Christians" in the more orthodox sense...(I am assuming you also believe this, please correct me if I am wrong, but that there are probably a variety of points of view on this so I am not necessarily asking you to describe how you see yourself if you were to do this, but the majority view in your experience if you prefer...or a variety of views if you have the time and desire to share).

Do you think that there is any shame in someone like this who responds to another with vulgarity and harshness or do you think they dismiss it as unimportant...or perhaps something else that hasn't occurred to me. I would like to know because I would like to understand that world view and how they see themselves as interacting with others and what this means...something beyond the theological theory so to speak.

Do they feel shame? They ought to but if they don't it's my opinion that they are still immature in the faith/relationship.

Shawn,

Salvation is a journey, not a single event. So, yes, I am on the narrow path that Christ tells us about.

I'd say it's both. We are saved the moment we believe, and we then begin on the path in connection via relationship to him.

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Wow BlueBell, maybe there is some history here that I'm not privy to, but that seemed to be a somewhat uncharitable and rude response to Tacenda's post.

I didn't take it that way. I'm use to being the child to the adult here on the MDDB, even though I'm 51. I've definitely not delved into our LDS doctrine as I should have in my life as a BIC member. Just have gone to church, served in many callings etc. but never really searched or read the scholarly papers on what we believe, just the Ensign, in fact Ensign was my scripture more or less. So if Bluebell is reading, I never took offense to anything you've said. I figure you just care enough to say something, and I appreciate it.
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I didn't take it that way. I'm use to being the child to the adult here on the MDDB, even though I'm 51. I've definitely not delved into our LDS doctrine as I should have in my life as a BIC member. Just have gone to church, served in many callings etc. but never really searched or read the scholarly papers on what we believe, just the Ensign, in fact Ensign was my scripture more or less. So if Bluebell is reading, I never took offense to anything you've said. I figure you just care enough to say something, and I appreciate it.

I'm glad you understood that post in the spirit that it was sent. I know that you often have questions and appreciate it when things are explained so that was my only intent. :)

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I'd say it's both. We are saved the moment we believe, and we then begin on the path in connection via relationship to him.

And what happens to someone who falls off that narrow path?

Methinks "once saved, always saved" does not pass the scriptural test of the Last Judgement.

Edited by cdowis
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I also think there is some confusion over the difference (in the LDS mind) between salvation and exaltation. I have always answered Evangelicals with the "are you saved?" question that in my belief system "Jesus did the saving during the Atonement. It was a fact that he did this." Whether or not I personally accept it as true is irrelevant. So "being saved" to me is when you accept the Atonement as a true fact. And that leads us into the concept of exaltation which is totally foreign to the non-LDS Christian. We have to understand as LDS that the average Christian knows nothing of our Plan of Salvation concept.

For those who pin salvation on their decision, it means salvation cannot be taken away or lost, no matter how they live. "Always saved" guarantees salvation, regardless of what happens later, whether they live a holy and righteous life or one of sin without fruit or good works. This is unscriptural and inconsistent! The Bible does not guarantee salvation to those living wickedly; the only assurance of salvation is by good works!!! The Bible says this over and over and when talking to an Evangelical it is important to use only the Bible (since they don't accept the BOM or the teachings of the D&C.) (Ps 15:1-5; Matt 7:21-23; John 8:31-32; II Cor 5:17; Phil 2:12-16; Titus 3:8; Jas 1:26-27; I John 2:4; 3:10).

I have seen LDS try to talk to an Evangelical by using verses from our scriptures and this immediately backfires because they believe this to be "heresy" at worst and "deceivement" at best.

Edited by kassie
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Thanks, I'll take that as a compliment.

Oops...sorry, if it came out condescending...what I meant is that your belief works well within the LDS context.

And you do come across as a good person, LDS or not. :)

Edited by calmoriah
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I stumbled upon this site tonight and it is very disturbing. I would warn anyone who is squeamish about what this "exMormon" reveals about the temple to decide for him/herself whether they want to take a look at it. Again.....I am just struggling with the "whys and wherefores" on what the purpose of this is. These people obviously don't believe we are Christians at all. They see us a "cult" teaching false doctrine. How do you deal with people like this?

Edited by kassie
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I stumbled upon this site tonight and it is very disturbing. I would warn anyone who is squeamish about what this "exMormon" reveals about the temple to decide for him/herself whether they want to take a look at it. Again.....I am just struggling with the "whys and wherefores" on what the purpose of this is. These people obviously don't believe we are Christians at all. They see us a "cult" teaching false doctrine. How do you deal with people like this?

You need to delete the link. Any link posting temple content is a major no no (spam, porn and vulgarity is probably the only thing more likely to get you banned). We also do not refer to specifics in temple content. Refresh details by reading the guidelines again.

Discussing motivation of anti sites like this one is okay. I can't think of any other guidelines, written or tradition...perhaps if someone else thinks of one, they will speak up.

Edited by calmoriah
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You need to delete the link. Any link posting temple content is a major no no (spam, porn and vulgarity is probably the only thing more likely to get you banned). We also do not refer to specifics in temple content. Refresh details by reading the guidelines again.

Discussing motivation of anti sites like this one is okay. I can't think of any other guidelines, written or tradition...perhaps if someone else thinks of one, they will speak up.

It's deleted!!! I was just so disturbed by it! :sorry:

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It's deleted!!! I was just so disturbed by it! :sorry:

And most LDS are...which is why the mods ask us not to link to them here.

As far as "dealing with people like this", in most cases they aren't prone to dialogue, they only want to tell you what you've got wrong or they don't understand the need to respect others' sacred beliefs and our need for sacred spaces.

Thus it leads me to generally just ignoring them. I'd much rather spend time with those who are sincerely curious about my faith and want to learn and demonstrate this by being respectful even if they make mistakes from time to time. I try and return the favour as well by learning what is important to them and how to respect it properly.

Edited by calmoriah
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Sounds very Zen to me -- the sound of one hand clapping, etc.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

No one can pluck us out of his hand, however, we can walk away. We are held, as we hold.

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I didn't take it that way. I'm use to being the child to the adult here on the MDDB, even though I'm 51. I've definitely not delved into our LDS doctrine as I should have in my life as a BIC member. Just have gone to church, served in many callings etc. but never really searched or read the scholarly papers on what we believe, just the Ensign, in fact Ensign was my scripture more or less. So if Bluebell is reading, I never took offense to anything you've said. I figure you just care enough to say something, and I appreciate it.

Wow! Now there's a mature and adult way to respond to it.

Gosh, I don't know why, but I have always pictured you to be somewhere around 30ish. :D

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John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

No one can pluck us out of his hand, however, we can walk away. We are held, as we hold.

Slick! And very Zen. Brought tears to my eyes. I've read these verses many times before, and yet familiarity did not breed anything other than hope and love.

Thanks!

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No one can pluck us out of his hand, however, we can walk away. We are held, as we hold.

OK, so let's go back to the question. What happens when someone walks away from the narrow path? 1 Nephi chapter 8 tells us, but let's see your answer.

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