Jump to content

Evangelical Anti Mormon Success?


Recommended Posts

I sent our friend Shawn of Utah a couple of emails.

In the first one I invited him to our form. In the second, in one of his videos he ask what "lies" he had told, and I answered his question with two specific examples.

I really doubt if he will pay any attention at all.
Edited by cdowis
Link to comment

I sent our friend Shawn of Utah a couple of emails.

In the first one I invited him to our form. In the second, in one of his videos he ask what "lies" he had told, and I answered his question with two specific examples.

I really doubt if he will pay any attention at all.

Have you seen his website? It now carries shows of his criticism of some evangelist churches out there. Apparently he and his wife took several Sundays to attend other non LDS churches. He was upset that they were so showy and really didn't get into the word of God, the bible. So it's his rant on them now. And it's what got him kicked off the t.v. station. He even puts the LDS church up as a good example of a few things.
Link to comment

I minored in Theology when I was in college back in the 70's. I really have found that the best way to "witness" to other religions is by having a STRONG knowledge of their faith in order to establish common ground. Many LDS only seem to know about our own faith and nothing much about others. Then when they are faced with an apologetics situation they are uncomfortable because they don't know anything about the teachings of the other religion. Knowledge is a wonderful thing. :search:

Link to comment

UPDATE

My invitation to Shawn == wrote me back using the "F" word.

Friend?

(never mind answering, I know what he wrote but I prefer my version)

Edited by calmoriah
Link to comment

Sorry....double post. I've heard Shawn isn't well thought of by other Evangelical Anti Mormons, is that true?

I don't know about the past, they certainly put his show up on TV with no problem until he started to criticize other Evangelicals...at which point they pulled the plug.
Link to comment

Just like you, right?

Serious question, I know you can't read minds but I am asking for an answer based on your personal experience with those who see themselves as "saved Christians" in the more orthodox sense...(I am assuming you also believe this, please correct me if I am wrong, but that there are probably a variety of points of view on this so I am not necessarily asking you to describe how you see yourself if you were to do this, but the majority view in your experience if you prefer...or a variety of views if you have the time and desire to share).

Do you think that there is any shame in someone like this who responds to another with vulgarity and harshness or do you think they dismiss it as unimportant...or perhaps something else that hasn't occurred to me. I would like to know because I would like to understand that world view and how they see themselves as interacting with others and what this means...something beyond the theological theory so to speak.

Edited by calmoriah
Link to comment

In order to avoid derailing a previous thread about a notable evangelical church with anti Mormon feelings, I wanted to open up a conversation about the countercult movement in general. Is there any research out there about how successful Evangelical proselyting efforts are? For example even though I don't live in the Phoenix area, I know that there are a few vocal groups down there. How successful are they? I'm curious if large numbers of LDS have joined these types of Churches.

As leaders have said the greater the opposition to greater the reward. In fact the ruder they become the more people stop listening and make themselves irrelevant.
Link to comment

In order to avoid derailing a previous thread about a notable evangelical church with anti Mormon feelings, I wanted to open up a conversation about the countercult movement in general. Is there any research out there about how successful Evangelical proselyting efforts are? For example even though I don't live in the Phoenix area, I know that there are a few vocal groups down there. How successful are they? I'm curious if large numbers of LDS have joined these types of Churches.

I think the "counter-cult" movement is running out of gas. In any group, you will always have some hard liners.. but in general I think the even though the evangelical community wouldn't likely offer the word brother or sister to an LDS for the most part, at least I think many consider them as distant cousins.. much in the same way it seems that many would look towards Catholics as nearer cousins.

I actually think there has been a recent and overwhelmingly quiet change over the last few years and hopefully the fueding amongst the Hatvengelicals, the McMormons and McCatholics will subside.

Link to comment

Serious question, I know you can't read minds but I am asking for an answer based on your personal experience with those who see themselves as "saved Christians" in the more orthodox sense...(I am assuming you also believe this, please correct me if I am wrong, but that there are probably a variety of points of view on this so I am not necessarily asking you to describe how you see yourself if you were to do this, but the majority view in your experience if you prefer...or a variety of views if you have the time and desire to share).

Do you think that there is any shame in someone like this who responds to another with vulgarity and harshness or do you think they dismiss it as unimportant...or perhaps something else that hasn't occurred to me. I would like to know because I would like to understand that world view and how they see themselves as interacting with others and what this means...something beyond the theological theory so to speak.

I don't quite follow (but I aren't too smart). Is the "someone" me and my response to Vance? Or Vance's response? Who is they? thanks/G
Link to comment

I think the "counter-cult" movement is running out of gas. In any group, you will always have some hard liners.. but in general I think the even though the evangelical community wouldn't likely offer the word brother or sister to an LDS for the most part, at least I think many consider them as distant cousins.. much in the same way it seems that many would look towards Catholics as nearer cousins.

I actually think there has been a recent and overwhelmingly quiet change over the last few years and hopefully the fueding amongst the Hatvengelicals, the McMormons and McCatholics will subside.

I agree from my limited observations.

Hatvengelicals, ...

ha!

Link to comment

I don't quite follow (but I aren't too smart). Is the "someone" me and my response to Vance? Or Vance's response? Who is they? thanks/G

Shawn and his response to cdowis...sorry, I wasn't clear.

I guess I am basically asking does anyone really give the kind of answer that Vance implies, that they justify such behaviour based on their belief they are a "saved Christian", that such doesn't matter because in the long run they are destined for heaven or do they experience shame instead for the same reason....because a saved Christian shouldn't do such things or perhaps something else.

Link to comment

I actually think there has been a recent and overwhelmingly quiet change over the last few years and hopefully the fueding amongst the Hatvengelicals, the McMormons and McCatholics will subside.

Wouldn't it be grand if we could all just be comfortable with sharing our own beliefs and asking questions of others rather than telling them what they believe and condemning them for it?
Link to comment

Shawn and his response to cdowis...sorry, I wasn't clear.

I guess I am basically asking does anyone really give the kind of answer that Vance implies, that they justify such behaviour based on their belief they are a "saved Christian", that such doesn't matter because in the long run they are destined for heaven or do they experience shame instead for the same reason....because a saved Christian shouldn't do such things or perhaps something else.

i'm useless
Link to comment

Serious question, I know you can't read minds but I am asking for an answer based on your personal experience with those who see themselves as "saved Christians" in the more orthodox sense...(I am assuming you also believe this, please correct me if I am wrong, but that there are probably a variety of points of view on this so I am not necessarily asking you to describe how you see yourself if you were to do this, but the majority view in your experience if you prefer...or a variety of views if you have the time and desire to share).

Do you think that there is any shame in someone like this who responds to another with vulgarity and harshness or do you think they dismiss it as unimportant...or perhaps something else that hasn't occurred to me. I would like to know because I would like to understand that world view and how they see themselves as interacting with others and what this means...something beyond the theological theory so to speak.

On Shawn's show, he would ask some of the callers if they were "saved". This was the way he would figure out if they understood Grace. The LDS would hem and haw with the question. They would finally come to realize they didn't know yet. In Shawn's opinion that would mean they were in bondage, or all LDS are in bondage, always trying to do better, never feeling up to par. I guess in his mind, once you realize the gift of being saved, it's going to change your life. And on his show he always calls himself a donkey, so I guess he trips up a lot or is stubborn, I don't know. And I guess him telling someone to F-off, is really being the donkey he claims he is. I was disappointed hearing that about him though.

Link to comment

On Shawn's show, he would ask some of the callers if they were "saved". This was the way he would figure out if they understood Grace. The LDS would hem and haw with the question. They would finally come to realize they didn't know yet.

Did they say that?

Link to comment

Did they say that?

Some would say that they were baptized and that would be the born again portion of being saved, but when he would ask them if they would live with God again, then they weren't so sure. Bluebell are you saved? How would you answer? I get the impression that it is laughable to say that amongst the LDS crowd.
Link to comment

Some would say that they were baptized and that would be the born again portion of being saved, but when he would ask them if they would live with God again, then they weren't so sure. Bluebell are you saved? How would you answer? I get the impression that it is laughable to say that amongst the LDS crowd.

It's not laughable, but when someone like Shawn asks you that, most LDS understand that it's a trick question.

The way that LDS define being saved is different than how most other Christians define it. For an LDS person, being saved is the equivalent of being exalted-living with God in the Celestial kingdom and becoming joint-heirs with Christ.

Has that happened to you yet Tacenda? Are you exalted? Are you a joint-heir with Christ, having gained all that the Father has? It hasn't happened to me yet. If a person is still alive and muddling through mortality, it hasn't happened to them yet either.

So, it's very valid (and not at all a sign of confusion or bondage) to answer 'not yet' to the 'are you saved' question.

But, most LDS people also realize that people like Shawn are going to try to use that very valid answer against them, so instead of trying to answer the question using the LDS definition of 'saved', they might try to answer using the non-LDS Christian definition.

When a non-LDS Christian asks another person whether or not they are 'saved' they are asking them whether or not they have accepted Jesus and been justified through His Atonement. They are asking whether or not, if they died that day, they would be eligible for eternal life.

Has that happened to you yet Tacenda? Do you have faith in Christ? Do you repent of your sins? Did you enter in at the straight gait which leads to eternal life? Do you try to follow Him (which is just another way to ask whether or not you try to obey His commandments)? I have and I do. Most other active LDS members have and do as well.

So, using that definition, it's very valid for an LDS person to answer 'yes' to the 'are you saved' question.

And so you see that it is equally valid for an LDS person to answer both 'yes' and 'no' to Shawn's inquiry. Which leaves LDS callers into a bit of a predicament. They can either answer 'no' and be true to their understanding of the word 'saved', or answer 'yes', and realize that most of the non-LDS people listening won't really understand what they are actually saying (because they don't understand the word the same way that the LDS caller does).

And this is why it's a trick question-

Shawn knows that LDS don't understand the word 'saved' like non-LDS Christians do and so he knows that when he asks an LDS person if they are saved, they are going to either answer:

1)'no' (which would be a dream come true because it plays right into his hands),

2)'yes' (which will give him a chance to bring up all sorts of LDS beliefs about temples and obedience and go on and on about how can an LDS person be saved right after baptism if going to the temple is necessary for salvation, blah, blah, blah, crap which has nothing to do with the question but he knows will confuse his listeners and again, play right into his hands),

3)or they will try to explain LDS beliefs about salvation and exaltation and clarify their answer so that it's as complete and truthful as possible (which will allow Shawn to announce that they are really just 'hemming and hawing' so obviously they are still in bondage')

In reality, no matter what an LDS person answers to that question, Shawn is going to use it against them, and he knows he can because his audience likely already agrees with him about Mormons anyway, and those who don't won't think critically enough about the question, or know enough doctrinally about it, to see it as the trickery that it really is.

You, being LDS, should be able to see it but since you have managed to go most of your life without really understanding the doctrines that LDS teach (and I don't mean that in a snarky way or as an insult), it's understandable that he was able to pull you in as well.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...