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How Should Lds Parents React?


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However, if a sex change has not been undergone than it is also simple biology that most will develop external sexual characteristics of the gender they do not identify with....and as they get older, chances that such will be noticed inadvertently by others grows to a certainty when kids are required to undress for PE, especially if they are required to take showers.

And I do not believe it is automatically intolerance learned from parents and/or peers that leads to some children to being uncomfortable being unclothed or exposed themselves or seeing children biologically of the opposite sex unclothed. Should their discomfort be taken into account or not? If not, why is their discomfort discountable while transgendered children's discomfort is considered significant?

New protocols are being developed. These days it is common to take hormone blockers to stop said development until 18 years old. I am not a medical/psychological professional of any kind. In my case there were physiological reasons for not developing "correctly". I can not say that horror stories do not happen and I have actually encountered adults who creeped me out.

I'd suggest that parents follow their consciences, and I believe that devout Mormons will lead the way in finding solutions to these issues that are suitable for all involved.

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The "boy" you speak of, if he is genuinely trans-gendered or intersexed, does not consider himself to be a boy. He will not be oggling your daughter full stop.

It is not just about "oggling" though this was focused on early on in the thread...and even there it was the pretended transgendered children that were the concern from what I read and wrote.

It is also about simple discomfort of children being nude or partially unclothed in the presence of those who are biologically different. At a certain age, children stop being comfortable being nude in front of others as they notice that others take care not to be unclothed. The age this happens varies with the individual. The awareness that there is a significance to biological differences that is more than just being different happens later. In our society, generally speaking most children pick up that it is okay to be unclothed in certain circumstances with those who are biologically similar while it is inappropriate ever to be such with those who are biologically different...though eventually as they get older, they are able to differentiate situations where romance or sexual attraction is involved, though generally they don't expand this to group situations, but limit it to one on one interactions.

If we lived in a society where public nudity was common and taught as acceptable, this is likely a problem that would be much less significant, but our society is not one of those and I think it is expecting too much of children to demand that they compartmentalize the very unusual situation of transgendered children (if they are 1 in 1000, in many schools there will only be one in all the classes) to the extent that it doesn't bother them significantly while continuing to perceive public nudity that mixes biological sexes as inappropriate, especially if they have not grown up with the child, but encounter him or her the first time when they are eight or over.

Edited by calmoriah
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Ellen nothing you reveal about yourself is ever distasteful. And those darn mormons are pretty nice aren't they? What is that about, sure doesn't make it easy for someone like me to leave the religion over unpleasant church history.

Today I went shopping and tried on some clothes at a new store in town. When I walked out of the dressing room stall, there was a man right next to mine. Maybe this is more common than I think. Come to think of it Old Navy has unisex dressing rooms.

Yes those darned Mormons completely discomfited my plan to fade away out of complete despair.

As to your running into a man in the dressing area, I do not know what to say. I am relying on Mormons to guide me in how to handle these situations.

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I'd suggest that parents follow their consciences, and I believe that devout Mormons will lead the way in finding solutions to these issues that are suitable for all involved.

So it would be acceptable to you to have as one of the options the transgendered child to use a private, individual restroom or changing room even though he or her might prefer to be seen as just one of the group s/he identifies with in order to meet the needs of the other children?
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As to your running into a man in the dressing area, I do not know what to say. I am relying on Mormons to guide me in how to handle these situations.

I don't think it is an issue as long as the actual dressing area where people are unclothed is restricted to only one sex at a time if the individual wants it to be. If someone is comfortable with having the opposite biological sex in the dressing room with him/her (such as a spouse), as long as they don't take the opportunity to make out, I am okay with it. And the making out is more of a hygiene issue for me if they were quiet enough so that others wouldn't realize what was going on...just like I prefer to believe that hotel rooms are limited to sex between the sheets that are washed thoroughly between occupants. ;)
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So, what would be your suggestion regarding these children? What if you had a boy who decided he was a girl? Many of these children know by the time they are 4-5 years old.

I have no clue to be quite honest. I'd have to think about it first. I just know that this law is the wrong way to go about it.

Edited by TAO
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Realistically, you are just horiblizing. In the treatment of such youth simply does not happen. I've been around this situation a bit in the volunteer work I have done. Please remember, our first priority is to serve heavenly father and all those around us.

And we show that love by allowing them (the kids, not the adults) to choose which bathroom they go to? Wow.

I understand that there is the possibility for transgendered youth to be bullied. But, it seems to me, that allowing them to pick the bathroom in which they feel comfortable does nothing to lessen the incidence or effects of the bullying. In fact, it may do quite a bit to increase the incidence of such behavior.

You can call my concern "horiblizing" if you want; cavalier dismissal seems a bit condesending. But go back and read the OP. The news article said nothing about children (ages 5 through 18) needing to prove they are transgendered; it just says they can choose where they feel most comfortable. While many transgendered children may cross-dress (as you mention), not all do. Will cross-dressing be a requirement of entering the opposite sex's restroom? Again, the law, as reported in the OP, says there is no such requirement. We might presume that such would be the case, but my reaction is to the law, as reported -- not to the law as you are sure it must be.

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A much loved Senator here had a son who killed himself over this sort of thing. So, how much as children of Heavenly Father do we want to try to ease the suffering for even those who are icky to us?

<sarcasm>

That's sad that the senator's son killed himself because he couldn't choose which bathroom to go into as a child. Too bad the law wasn't in effect earlier; it might have saved his life.

</sarcasm>

Seriously now -- how would the law described in the OP have helped such a person and not opened him up to more potential ridicule?

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I sub in the school district and will sub in Jr. High P.E. sometimes. Not once have the girls showered. It's not like it use to be. So I don't see how any of this could be a problem. But I may have missed something. Oh, and usually the boy's bathroom will have urinals and stalls. So again, when will there be an instance of seeing someone nude?

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I sub in the school district and will sub in Jr. High P.E. sometimes. Not once have the girls showered. It's not like it use to be. So I don't see how any of this could be a problem. But I may have missed something. Oh, and usually the boy's bathroom will have urinals and stalls. So again, when will there be an instance of seeing someone nude?

The article also mentioned sports teams. I do think that they do use a shower after a sporting event. I just cannot see a team load of girls or boys during a hot day on the field go outside full of sweat and smell without a shower.

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Those who find this revelation distasteful are free to not talk to me, ban me or do as they wish.

I feel for you, for the trauma you had to endure. Do you honestly feel that a law allowing you to choose your bathroom, though, would have made your home life better? (Perhaps I missed something, but the trauma you describe was all at home, where one should reasonable expect a haven. You didn't have it, and the law in the OP would not have provided it.)

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I sub in the school district and will sub in Jr. High P.E. sometimes. Not once have the girls showered. It's not like it use to be.

What is the requirement for boys?

And different schools have different rules. I went to one middle school that didn't have showers available due to be a very old school, another school require it though it wasn't checked all that rigorously for the girls at least. And high school was different from both.

Edited by calmoriah
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The article also mentioned sports teams. I do think that they do use a shower after a sporting event. I just cannot see a team load of girls or boys during a hot day on the field go outside full of sweat and smell without a shower.

Oops, forgot about that. It sure would be nice if they could redo the showers to make them private.
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Oops, forgot about that. It sure would be nice if they could redo the showers to make them private.

I think that having maybe a quarter of them as private and others as open for those who don't care and don't want to wait for a private one (since you can pack more showers in a space if there are no dividers) would work and be a nice compromise on saving money. Perhaps they could do a study on kids' attitudes in a district before constructing a school (as attitudes likely vary over locations depending on local culture) in order to determine the best ratio.

Also make the shower setup so the kid can put their clothes somewhere dry in the stall so they don't get wet from the water so they can dress in privacy if they want (as the towel has to get dropped sometime).

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It is not just about "oggling" though this was focused on early on in the thread...and even there it was the pretended transgendered children that were the concern from what I read and wrote.

It is also about simple discomfort of children being nude or partially unclothed in the presence of those who are biologically different. At a certain age, children stop being comfortable being nude in front of others as they notice that others take care not to be unclothed. The age this happens varies with the individual. The awareness that there is a significance to biological differences that is more than just being different happens later. In our society, generally speaking most children pick up that it is okay to be unclothed in certain circumstances with those who are biologically similar while it is inappropriate ever to be such with those who are biologically different...though eventually as they get older, they are able to differentiate situations where romance or sexual attraction is involved, though generally they don't expand this to group situations, but limit it to one on one interactions.

If we lived in a society where public nudity was common and taught as acceptable, this is likely a problem that would be much less significant, but our society is not one of those and I think it is expecting too much of children to demand that they compartmentalize the very unusual situation of transgendered children (if they are 1 in 1000, in many schools there will only be one in all the classes) to the extent that it doesn't bother them significantly while continuing to perceive public nudity that mixes biological sexes as inappropriate, especially if they have not grown up with the child, but encounter him or her the first time when they are eight or over.

I do not know what to say. Let Heavenly Father guide us. I get far too emotional about this subject and can not reason it out.

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I think that having maybe a quarter of them as private and others as open for those who don't care and don't want to wait for a private one (since you can pack more showers in a space if there are no dividers) would work and be a nice compromise on saving money. Perhaps they could do a study on kids' attitudes in a district before constructing a school (as attitudes likely vary over locations depending on local culture) in order to determine the best ratio.

Also make the shower setup so the kid can put their clothes somewhere dry in the stall so they don't get wet from the water so they can dress in privacy if they want (as the towel has to get dropped sometime).

I think that a few private showers could be the answer. I can see many teenagers rather shy about their bodies, wishing to shower privately. However, this may also come under ridicule in the shower room. I can just see a group of boys mocking a boy who wishes to take a private shower. Likewise for the girls. Children are becoming rather verbally aggressive these days.

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I get far too emotional about this subject and can not reason it out.

That is understandable. I don't think anyone feels the need to force a confrontation here with anyone else as long as someone doesn't present their opinion as what everyone else must accept as the only reasonable one.
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So it would be acceptable to you to have as one of the options the transgendered child to use a private, individual restroom or changing room even though he or her might prefer to be seen as just one of the group s/he identifies with in order to meet the needs of the other children?

My ultimate hope is that eventually there will be sufficent research to identify those individuals very early on and institute a treatment protocol that will match their mind to their bodies. We know that the fetus begins to be either male or female in the last part of the first trimester. We also know that sometimes things happen during pregnancy that cause things to happen that are outside the strictly male female designation. Thankfully this is rare, be cause these children to not wish to be unsuitable any more than those who look on them and question their existence.

For reasons not well understood, some fetuses never get the SPRY cells that are able to take in testosterone and convert the body to males. So, genetically a person can be XY but look just like a woman save for the lack of ability to reproduce sometimes. These situations can not rightly be moralized about.

I do not know how it is in Mormon schools, but when I was growing up, young people in High School were buck naked in the showers together. Just imagine not clearly looking like either gender? Fortunately, when the extent of my horror was realized, I was excused..

There are several Transgender videos on youtube and lately several of them are on the news. We have new decisions to make, and Heavenly Father will guide us.

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I think that a few private showers could be the answer. I can see many teenagers rather shy about their bodies, wishing to shower privately. However, this may also come under ridicule in the shower room. I can just see a group of boys mocking a boy who wishes to take a private shower. Likewise for the girls. Children are becoming rather verbally aggressive these days.

Still it would be nice for children to have the choice of what discomfort they prefer to endure.
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My ultimate hope is that eventually there will be sufficent research to identify those individuals very early on and institute a treatment protocol that will match their mind to their bodies.

It will be wonderful when medicine advances this far.
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It will be wonderful when medicine advances this far.

This thread comes at a time when I am feeling extremely vulnerable. There are elements within the church using me as a stalking horse to try to answer some of these questions. Some think that I am this strong resolute woman who will drive this, but I am not strong as they wish me to be. When I was attending school, starting around 1953, no one knew what Intersex, transgender, gay or lesbian was, or at least it was not spoken of. I know what it is to go clear through High School being almost completely ostracized. I withdrew and sat in my room and read, lots.

For most of the time even in adulthood, I was rejected, but kept a job because I was just so very good at what I did. People valued what I did, not who I was. So, when I went into Islam, I welcomed the shrouding and concealment. It was my safety. I can not even begin to relate the horror I felt when I met the Mormons and eventually they wanted me to uncover. Much to my complete astonishment, when this shy and unsuitable woman first showed up at Sacrement and no one rejected her, I was completely nonplussed.

I wish every little child like me could be born into the Mormon Church.

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@EllenMaksoud My heart really does break reading this, my heart goes out to you & I know you will find the strength! Heavenly Father has a plan for you, the right things will happen at the right time and all will be right. Of this I can testify!

Regards the main topic of this thread...

You know what here in the UK when I was a kid in Infant & Junior schools we got changed in the classroom, there were no changing rooms, in fact up till about the age of 8/9 we didn't even get changed for PE we just stripped down to our underpants & vests. If there was a family get together & a few of the cousins were staying over when it came to bath time we were all thrown in at once, boys & girls together. Nan & grandad would turn the sprinkler on & we'd all shuck of our clothes and run through it in our underpants & vests...and none of us cared! We didn't know we were supposed to care, it was only as we got older & these things stopped, when we started asking "awkward" questions our parents didn't want to answer "why does Sue have a front bottom?", that we were taught that we supposed to care about these things. Of course toilets were a different matter, boys didn't go into the girls bathroom ever (you would catch the lurgeys or they'd put make-up on you or something equally horrific) and girls didn't go into the boys bathroom (because they were smelly). I don't know how it is in the schools today but generations of British school children grew up in these circumstances & no-one was harmed in the making.

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I feel for you, for the trauma you had to endure. Do you honestly feel that a law allowing you to choose your bathroom, though, would have made your home life better? (Perhaps I missed something, but the trauma you describe was all at home, where one should reasonable expect a haven. You didn't have it, and the law in the OP would not have provided it.)

Many of these children are not identifiable as anything but the gender they say they are if care begins early, so I am not sure why this law is necessary. In my case, the Doctor simply removed the wrong set of organs and in the 40's and 50's most of the time the Doctor just did his best and the op was not even documented. The only reason that any of us children suspected it was that I spent extra time in the hospital and much later evidence of the "correction" surfaced.

Most Doctors unless they specialize in the area, do not spend substantial time studying genetics. Tests to reveal these sorts of conditions only became available recently and there is not significant funds available to do genetic studies since things like cancer research rightly take president. In the last 10 years much of the funds for research has been siphoned off by the military/industrial complex.

So, addressing this new law, I do not know what to say. And truthfully with the GBLT lobby there to muddy the water, people suspect nefarious motives.

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What is the requirement for boys?

And different schools have different rules. I went to one middle school that didn't have showers available due to be a very old school, another school require it though it wasn't checked all that rigorously for the girls at least. And high school was different from both.

It appeared they didn't. They all just want to get to class. But I could be wrong about the boys. They can shower and get ready much quicker than girls. Great point!
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Really don't have too much to say except that people who deprive these students of a decent chance in life should be ashamed. Do you know that 40% of these individuals attempt suicide? Some people should just get their mind out of the gutter. I mean at home, both males and females use the same bathroom.

Who says minds have to be in the gutter... and at home, you don't have a man walking into the bathroom while a woman is sitting on the stool or showering etc. They wait until the other person is finished... at school it's different. In gym we girls all ran through the shower, grabbed a towel and dried off at our lockers... naked. And then we dressed. Have times changed? I don't care how a woman/man-appearing W/M "feels," imagine the discomfort his("her") presence would cause other people? Where are those peoples' rights? How about their "feelings?" No one of the LGBT seems to care as long as they can push their agenda... I agree with Calmoriah... this proposed law invites persecution and ridicule.

If this is to be law, then in order to minimize such persecution, a separate bath/shower needs to be set aside in areas where a transgendered person wants to choose... and have an entry accessible outside of the larger lockeroom and/or bathroom. So it will cost some money... if they want to push this and the schools want to go along with it... they can just pay for it... and allow the non-transgendered the same consideration of "feelings" and privacy.

The majority are being asked to submit to the wishes of the few. I don't believe my view in this matter is out of line or discriminatory... I don't want anyone hurt or bullied...

GG

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