How Should Lds Parents React?

[Lightbearer]

I think the plumbing should fit to the appropriate restroom... notwithstanding "gender preference" I mean gay men use men's rooms and lesbian women use women's rooms. As for transsexuals... hopefully no children have had a sex change operation. So if they have men's plumbing, then the little boy's room is the right place, and female goes to female. Sexual preference should not be relevant. It is abominable to sexualize kids, bordering on child abuse. If I lived in California, I would leave before the judgments of God destroy a modern day Sodom. I do not believe we need to be tolerant of a deviant lifestyle, and we do not need to make changes in bathroom arraignments in schools to make a contemptible political statement. It is horrifing to know that school administrators are more afraid of allowing prayer in schools than trying to pander to those with deviant lifestyles. This is sickening, sorry, but it is.

[rpn]

There shouldn't be anything for the lds parents to react to. If the child identifies girl, they will dress and act like girl. Presumably our children know that going into the stall is private. So what would the child see that would need a reaction?

If the child switches genders and starts going into the other restroom in the same school, then I think you say that for some reason s/he thinks she/he is really the other gender and now s/he is living that out. It is his/her call to make and the most important thing is that s/he is a beloved child of God and deserves to be treated kindly just like your child wants to be treated kindly.

Middle school is tougher, but schools have typically always waived PE for good reason, or provided private dressing out facilities when that was the only way to deal with specific issues.

[Calm]

provided private dressing out facilities when that was the only way to deal with specific issues.

And when parents refuse to go along with such arrangements?

a Colorado family filed a complaint with the state's civil rights office in March, claiming that their local school had violated the state's nondiscrimination laws. The family had been told that their first-grader, who was born a boy, could not use the girl's bathroom and would have to use the restroom in the nurse's office or the teachers' lounge.

[strappinglad]

More and more public washrooms are small and unisex. In large schools there can be boys rooms , girls rooms and several small private rooms that can be locked from the inside and used by whomever. Why wear a 'sign' that says 'I'm a boy who feels like a girl so let me in the Girl's washroom. ' ? So often now the schools are all about warehousing and social experimentation .

[EllenMaksoud]

A serious question here...but why is it that the majority of these types of stories that I hear come from the United States? Is it the greater population? Am I reading the wrong sources? What?

Well, lets see, if you go to the UK, transgender rights is law. It is also unlawful to harrass in any way anyone in public. The US is not the tale that wags the dog any longer. Contrary wise, there are many countries where so called diversity types are simply killed. Oddly, in Iran if one is gay, a sex change will save their lives. Hmmm

[EllenMaksoud]

Right.

Except we'll now have to take all the urinals out of the boys' bathrooms. And, later, as the population ages, out of mens' restrooms in other venues.

Showering after PE? What if my son was forced to shower not only with a bunch of guys, but also with a girl or two who said they felt more "at ease" among boys? Hmmmm....

How does one determine if a boy/girl *really* feels more at ease in the opposite sex's restrooms? Counseling? Parent's permission slip? Just their say so?

How do you handle it if you hear from another school parent that your little Johnny (age 6) is now visiting the girls' bathroom on a regular basis? Do you encourage that behavior? What if Johnny says that he only does it because his friends do it?

Stupid, stupid, stupid -- stupidity in an effort to be "tolerant."

Realistically, you are just horiblizing. In the treatment of such youth simply does not happen. I've been around this situation a bit in the volunteer work I have done. Please remember, our first priority is to serve heavenly father and all those around us.

[Calm]

In the treatment of such youth simply does not happen.

I believe his point is in part that youth not transgendered will take advantage of the situation. I would assume due to the small percentage of transgendered, that 'normal' kids will be more likely be the cause of abuse of any new law intended to protect transgendered children.

I have known of incidents where elementary school boys have intentionally exposed themselves to female classmates as well attempted to and successfully fondled them. I assume it happens to boys as well and probably, though likely much less often, girls are the abusers as well.

Is it not possible that children prone to such abuse might make claims to be more comfortable with the opposite gender in order to attempt to get gratification without getting in trouble?

[rpn]

Since transgender issues in elementary school are largely driven by adults, it is hard for me to imagine any increased risk of sexual abuse by people pretending to be transgendered. It isn't like same sex children are allowed to/encouraged to fondle each other or even touch each other in the normal course of school, any more than opposite sex children are.

[Calm]

It isn't like same sex children are allowed to/encouraged to fondle each other or even touch each other in the normal course of school, any more than opposite sex children are.

I would think the incident rate is higher for opposite sex in fact just due to the higher percentage of heterosexuals in the population. I have personally heard of several incidents involved boys abusing or attempting to abuse girls. Allowing opposite sex children to be in more private areas such as bathrooms and locker rooms seems to me that there might be a problem with increased attempts. I would be very interested to hear of any countries' experience who have set up their elementary and secondary schools to allow mixing of opposite sex children due to claims of being transgendered. If other countries have already experimented in this way, why not take advantage of their experience before making decisions here. So far I have heard of nothing save that there have been laws put in place, I would be interested to hear the specifics and any reports or studies about the results of such.

it is hard for me to imagine any increased risk of sexual abuse by people pretending to be transgendered

Unfortunately from what I've heard, it is not hard for me to imagine that there are kids out there that might not push for change themselves to game the system, but will be willing to take advantage of the system if it is already in place. I don't think it will be common, but I can imagine that if stories start being spread among kids about it, there will be increased kids just doing it to see if they can get away with it...not necessarily because they are intentionally abusers.

Perhaps I am overcautious due to having near relatives who were abused by young boys when they were elementary aged, though not in school...but I tend to see it as wisdom to be cautious when involving very impressionable and naive youth who are ill prepared to deal with others of their own age that for whatever reason are engaging in abusing their peers. Almost twenty years later they are still dealing with the scars of their experience, in one case her life is very messed up.

Edited July 5, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

I believe his point is in part that youth not transgendered will take advantage of the situation. I would assume due to the small percentage of transgendered, that 'normal' kids will be more likely be the cause of abuse of any new law intended to protect transgendered children.

I have known of incidents where elementary school boys have intentionally exposed themselves to female classmates as well attempted to and successfully fondled them. I assume it happens to boys as well and probably, though likely much less often, girls are the abusers as well.

Is it not possible that children prone to such abuse might make claims to be more comfortable with the opposite gender in order to attempt to get gratification without getting in trouble?

You are talking about some very antisocial conduct. I think that most of the scenarios we fear in our minds just do not happen. I think that especially pre-pubescent children normally would not do anything like that. While I do not know, it would seem that pretenders could be sorted rather readily. I just can not imagine an 8th grade boy willingly putting on girls clothes and then going into the loo to look a girls. Besides, in the girls at least there are all stalls. In non Mormon culture, it is not uncommon to fish for your slip or something similar.

As to the boys, I have relatively little experience above age 12. Personally, I think urinals are messy and smell badly, and they should not be there. Post pubescent male student Lavs smell very badly, and I never went in them unless I could see blood or severed limbs.

Remember, the legitimate transgender students are generally very depressed and unsure of them selves, a danger of suicide, and not likely to cause trouble. Their condition should waken compassion in us. Try volunteering at a place like Outesidein, or SMYRK (Sexual Minority Youth Resource Center). Remember statistically, the distribution of said individuals is even, so I imagine that even very highly placed individuals in our church have a relative who has experience in these issues.

A much loved Senator here had a son who killed himself over this sort of thing. So, how much as children of Heavenly Father do we want to try to ease the suffering for even those who are icky to us?

[TAO]

To be quite honest, I only see this law creating problems. My school (in California) didn't have unisex bathrooms or lockerooms (I doubt many schools have those), and you didn't change in the privacy of a stall. PE continued until 10th grade or 12th if you did sports. I would feel extremely awkward dressing with a member of the opposite sex, transgender or not.

This is likely not going to work out well. Alas, that's pretty much all politics for you.

Edited July 5, 2013 by TAO

[Calm]

You are talking about some very antisocial conduct. I think that most of the scenarios we fear in our minds just do not happen. I think that especially pre-pubescent children normally would not do anything like that.

No one is saying as far as I can tell that this would be common and definitely no claims that it would be normal. But considering the small number of transgendered children to begin with, it might just be possible that the pretenders might outnumber the actual cases....especially if it becomes a game where kids are daring each other to try it. Considering what kids have come up with in the past that have become 'fashionable trends' (especially with the access kids have to the internet where the word can be spread on how to go about gaming the system these days), I don't see it as too farfetched to think that it might occur in this case.

I don't see the law requiring that the children would only be allowed to identify as transgendered if they wear opposite sex clothing. I agree if that is a requirement that would discourage the pranksters and even the abusers to a very great extent.

As I added in the above post, I have two near relatives who were subject to such very antisocial conduct by two boys and who are still dealing with such abuse and likely will be the rest of their lives to some degree. It occurred because their father placed them in an area that most parents would be cautious about allowing opposite sex children to be alone in unsupervised. To me, even if it happens just a few times that is too many if there are ways to prevent it (perhaps by not insisting that transgendered children must be allowed to mix with opposite sex children in more secluded areas of schools, but rather have access to private areas separate from those of their own sex if they are uncomfortable among them).

Remember, the legitimate transgender students are generally very depressed and unsure of them selves, a danger of suicide, and not likely to cause trouble.

But what of the nonlegitmate students or the feelings of those who are not abusers, but just as uncomfortable in the presence of the transgendered student (not because they see him/her as transgendered but because they see him/her as "opposite sex") as the legitmate transgendered student is with his/her own sex. Why do the feelings of the transgendered student (who is likely much, much less common than heterosexual students who are uncomfortable in the presence of opposite sex students) take precedence over his/her peers to the point that that no matter what the feelings of the other children are, they are forced to participate in integration in private settings (I think those who equate such integration with integration in public settings are being unrealistic, there is a whole different type of discomfort when privacy and nudity are involved as opposed to racism). I am not saying the transgendered children's needs should be ignored, I just am saying other children's needs to be protected from discomfort should be just as valid as theirs. I also don't think children should be forced to be the ones who are exposed to the consequences of trying to altering social norms because adults want to change society, have a cause or are committed to a principle to such a degree that they forget to take into account the real experiences of children. Edited July 5, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

To be quite honest, I only see this law creating problems. My school (in California) didn't have unisex bathrooms or lockerooms (I doubt many schools have those), and you didn't change in the privacy of a stall. PE continued until 10th grade or 12th if you did sports. I would feel extremely awkward dressing with a member of the opposite sex, transgender or not.

This is likely not going to work out well. Alas, that's pretty much all politics for you.

So, what would be your suggestion regarding these children? What if you had a boy who decided he was a girl? Many of these children know by the time they are 4-5 years old.

[Calm]

So, what would be your suggestion regarding these children? What if you had a boy who decided he was a girl? Many of these children know by the time they are 4-5 years old.

I would suggest having a discussion with his peers first and see what they are comfortable with. If there are some that are uncomfortable with sharing private spaces with him or her, I would discuss with the child other options such as using an individual restroom such as are available in every school that I know of for the adults. If the child was uncomfortable among those who were biologically similar, I definitely would not force him or her to share either the restroom or locker room with those of the same sex. In fact, I wish schools provide more privacy restrooms and locker areas for those children who have anxiety being undressed in front of other children, whether due to history of abuse, physical disabilities that make them feel awkward or just general anxiety or something else. If more children were allowed to use such restricted access areas, transgendered children would not stand out as the only exception. There are plenty of children for whom using public restrooms and locker rooms is a traumatic experience whose needs are ignored by society because of the costs involved. As a kid, it was obvious which kid was nervous in the locker rooms due to the extremes they would go to avoid exposing their bodies to the view of others or having to see other girls' bodies...and many were teased because of such reluctance. There were always a few in each PE class I remember....much more common than the reported 1 in 1000 transgendered children out there. If their parents were the kind that wanted to change society and were willing to use the law to do so, the costs of meeting their needs would seem a lot less quite quickly.

I would really like to know if the child in Denver had an issue with using the nonpublic restrooms that the school made available to her or if it was only her parents that were troubled by it on principle. As you say, these children are often unsure of themselves and it seems to me drawing more attention to her through a public suit might very well have had more negative consequences for her than her using a private restroom.

Edited July 5, 2013 by calmoriah

[why me]

There shouldn't be anything for the lds parents to react to. If the child identifies girl, they will dress and act like girl. Presumably our children know that going into the stall is private. So what would the child see that would need a reaction?

If the child switches genders and starts going into the other restroom in the same school, then I think you say that for some reason s/he thinks she/he is really the other gender and now s/he is living that out. It is his/her call to make and the most important thing is that s/he is a beloved child of God and deserves to be treated kindly just like your child wants to be treated kindly.

Middle school is tougher, but schools have typically always waived PE for good reason, or provided private dressing out facilities when that was the only way to deal with specific issues.

Of course, you are thinking as an adult. But not as a child or a teenager. We are not dealing with sex changes but with people who can switch genders. So, a boy if he feels like a girl, can go into a girl's restroom and use it. Also, we are dealing with sports teams in high school. Should a transgender boy take a shower with the girls? Remember we are not dealing with sex changes but a change in gender. I think that what the law states is that a boy who feels more like a girl can participate in girl sports etc.

How would teenagers feel about transgendered children sharing their shower, being present in the girl's or boy's restroom etc?

Edited July 5, 2013 by why me

[why me]

So, what would be your suggestion regarding these children? What if you had a boy who decided he was a girl? Many of these children know by the time they are 4-5 years old.

Should this boy be allowed to take a shower with your daughter? How would you explain this to your daughter? And how would your daughter feel taking a shower with a boy who is a transgender?

[EllenMaksoud]

I would suggest having a discussion with his peers first and see what they are comfortable with. If there are some that are uncomfortable with sharing private spaces with him or her, I would discuss with the child other options such as using an individual restroom such as are available in every school that I know of for the adults.

I would really like to know if the child in Denver had an issue with using the nonpublic restrooms that the school made available to him or if it was only his parents that were troubled by it on principle. As you say, these children are often unsure of themselves and it seems to me drawing more attention to him through a public suit might very well have had more negative consequences for him than him using a private restroom.

In my opinion, truly transgender children do not wish to be treated any different than their "chosen" peers. I quoted "chosen" because in reality it was no choice of theirs. It was simple biology. I believe that it is parents that make people intolerant. I am in no wise advocating any sort of gay or lesbian issues here because none of us will agree on the subject.

Keeping this strictly to transgender children both Male to Female and Female to Male. I think there is fear around this situation because so few of them exist, thank God.

It is perhaps extremely self destructive to reveal this. For a long time it was thought that I was transgender-ed, Male to Female. In the 50's when I was growing up, frequently freaks like me were simply killed. It is impossible to describe the damage that a step father who is alarmed by this can do. In retrospect, I wish that he had made good on his frequent threats to kill me. So, for a long time I was a social pariah owing to the hate of others. Later it was found out that I was inter-sexed, born with parts of both organs, and slowly reason took over.

So, these days I live a quiet life, am very modest, do not date, and have no unseemly drives since all of it was surgically removed. I spent a number of years in care, having made several bids to do away with my worthless self. Much to my complete astonishment Missionaries thought it would be a good idea if I joined the church. In the last 28 months, no one single person in the church has said a single unkind thing to me.

I don't go parading around indecently in either of the restrooms. There is no record of my assaulting anyone, nor do I have such thoughts. Much to the total scandalization of some, I lead a completely normal life before Heavenly Father, and when I am not at church or volunteering or doing my calling, Humantiarian Services, I write the Feminist Science Fiction that only a troubled mind can produce.

Those who find this revelation distasteful are free to not talk to me, ban me or do as they wish.

[EllenMaksoud]

Should this boy be allowed to take a shower with your daughter? How would you explain this to your daughter? And how would your daughter feel taking a shower with a boy who is a transgender?

Edited July 5, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[why me]

Realistically, you are just horiblizing. In the treatment of such youth simply does not happen. I've been around this situation a bit in the volunteer work I have done. Please remember, our first priority is to serve heavenly father and all those around us.

But we also need to consider the children who are also being involved. Again, how does one explain to a 7 year old girl that Ben who is a boy but considers himself a girl can use the girl's room? Also, if the girl says in her innocence, mommy I think that I am a boy in response to the mother or father explaining why Ben is using the girl's room? Should little Cindy now be allowed to use the boy's room?

I don't think that children can comprehend the complexity of it all.

Edited July 5, 2013 by why me

[why me]

You are speaking out of a total and complete lack of understanding of the situation, and sounding very much like an evangelical.

I am getting far too emotional so am removing myself from the discussion.

I just see problems for parents and for children. Unfortunately, your response will now get the thread closed unless you edit it.

Edited July 5, 2013 by why me

[Calm]

In my opinion, truly transgender children do not wish to be treated any different than their "chosen" peers. I quoted "chosen" because in reality it was no choice of theirs. It was simple biology. I believe that it is parents that make people intolerant.

However, if a sex change has not been undergone than it is also simple biology that most will develop external sexual characteristics of the gender they do not identify with....and as they get older, chances that such will be noticed inadvertently by others grows to a certainty when kids are required to undress for PE, especially if they are required to take showers.

And I do not believe it is automatically intolerance learned from parents and/or peers that leads to some children to being uncomfortable being unclothed or exposed themselves or seeing children biologically of the opposite sex unclothed. Should their discomfort be taken into account or not? If not, why is their discomfort discountable while transgendered children's discomfort is considered significant?

[Tacenda]

Ellen nothing you reveal about yourself is ever distasteful. And those darn mormons are pretty nice aren't they? What is that about, sure doesn't make it easy for someone like me to leave the religion over unpleasant church history.

Today I went shopping and tried on some clothes at a new store in town. When I walked out of the dressing room stall, there was a man right next to mine. Maybe this is more common than I think. Come to think of it Old Navy has unisex dressing rooms.

[Calm]

You are speaking out of a total and complete lack of understanding of the situation....

I am getting far too emotional so am removing myself from the discussion.

I think you are. I think it is realistic to expect that some girls will be uncomfortable taking showers with a girl who has male biological characteristics...even if they have been taught that such children are not sexually attracted to them. Children are not that great at compartmentalizing and some would find it hard to emotionally separate a girl who is biologically a boy from actual boys.

If the issue is creating a safe and nonhostile environment for a child, should not all the children's needs be taken into account, not just either the majority or the minority so that all the children, the transgendered as well as the children who are the biological norm, feel safe and comfortable in their environment?

So far you have not addressed the typical child, but just made observations about the transgendered child's reactions. As important as those are, surely the other children's reactions are important enough to be part of the conversation as well.

[EllenMaksoud]

Having taken a couple of breaths, I shall try to remain calm. This is a very charged subject for me.

The "boy" you speak of, if he is genuinely trans-gendered or intersexed, does not consider himself to be a boy. He will not be oggling your daughter full stop. There are people in this world that say lurid things about people who are different, having no direct experience with them. I would suggest that you engage in much prayer and should the day ever come that you are priveleged to meet such a child, give them the chance to acquit themselves.

And, yes there are gay males who do what is called "Drag". These children, adequately screened by psychologists are not like that.

[Calm]

When I walked out of the dressing room stall, there was a man right next to mine. Maybe this is more common than I think. Come to think of it Old Navy has unisex dressing rooms.

However I doubt that there are many dressing rooms of stores that do not provide individual stalls, but require customers to undress in communal areas. Chances are they feel their customers will show their discomfort by taking their business elsewhere...unlike schools where children don't have that option.