Hemet Stake Young Men: What Makes You Beautiful

[Stargazer]

One of my sons lives in Hemet, California, and since he is a video guy, the stake asked him to produce and edit a production intended to be shown at the 2013 Hemet Stake Girls Camp. It features about 73 Young Men of the stake, and used 8 cameras ( 3 DSLRs, 4 iPads, 1 Canon XL2), 4 choreographers and was shot in 5 locations. It was a 1-day shoot, and of course many days of post production.

It starts out with interviews of some of the young men, but eventually turns into a music video.

[media=]

[Garden Girl]

Hemet is a Stake? Interesting... Of course I haven't been down there in almost 20 years... I still have extended family living in Murrieta and Sun City...

That's like my home town of Rialto, CA... we didn't have a ward so we had to go to Fontana Ward (San Bernardino Stake). Now Rialto is a Stake.

The nearest temple was St. George... Then finally came Los Angeles... Now there are temples in several So Cal cities, the nearest to Rialto being Redlands.

My point is that the growth of the Church in that area has been strong and steady.

GG

[thesometimesaint]

I live 9 miles from the Redlands Temple.

[Stargazer]

I live 9 miles from the Redlands Temple.

Wow, for some reason I always pictured you living somewhere back east!

[bluebell]

I was a little uncomfortable with some of the boys views on immodesty (like that it was the girls responsibility to dress so that boys could be more righteous) but I thought the music part at the end was incredibly sweet and something that would really help the girls to feel confident in being who they should be, rather than using shame on those girls who struggled with modesty.

[Stargazer]

I was a little uncomfortable with some of the boys views on immodesty (like that it was the girls responsibility to dress so that boys could be more righteous) but I thought the music part at the end was incredibly sweet and something that would really help the girls to feel confident in being who they should be, rather than using shame on those girls who struggled with modesty.

I've heard some of that "girl's responsibility to dress" modestly to save the poor boys from being put into fever, as a negative. Like, "What?! They can't keep their heads out of the gutter!? That's their problem! I will dress however I want!"

To which I say, what planet are they from who think that? I am a happily long-married man, who's long past the point where hormones rule my every minute. I've literally decades of experience at this biology thing. But if a scantily-clad female, especially an attractive one, suddenly pops into my field of view, well, bluebell, she will immediately reduce my insouciance to a quivering pile of jelly, at least for the second or two it takes for me to drag my eyes away. I no longer turn visibly into a staring, slack-jawed, mind-numbed pitiful excuse for an intelligent being, but I must do as Joseph of old did: FLEE. At least whatever is the appropriate form of that action, given the particular situation. "Eyes Front!" Find something inexplicably interesting in the far distant hills. Whatever.

It's a cooperative problem, you understand. You girls stay modest, and we guys will find it SO much easier to keep our eyes focused on yours.

[Calm]

It is not that we can simply ignore the basics of biology or culture, it is that it isn't just the girls' responsibility to attend to modest issues. Boys need to spend as much effort in schooling their thoughts as girls do in schooling their appearances. The problem is when it is presented as an unequal task...that boys will be just fine as long as the girls dress right, which is contrary to basic biology and the facts of life and is unfair to the girls due to the pressure it puts on them (if the boys err, then it must be because the girls failed no matter how hard they tried). At a certain age just having a girl in the room may be a problem for certain boys if they don't work at thinking modest thoughts.

[thesometimesaint]

Wow, for some reason I always pictured you living somewhere back east!

I lived for a while in Huntsville; Alabama. However that's been many many moons ago.

Ps; What won my wife's family over was my smooth southern accent. Alas that too was many many moons ago.

Edited June 24, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[thesometimesaint]

Interestingly a recent study has shown that women are more attracted to men with beard stubble than to clean shaven ones.

http://io9.com/study-finds-bearded-men-are-more-attractive-proves-my-493130473

[bluebell]

I've heard some of that "girl's responsibility to dress" modestly to save the poor boys from being put into fever, as a negative. Like, "What?! They can't keep their heads out of the gutter!? That's their problem! I will dress however I want!"

To which I say, what planet are they from who think that? I am a happily long-married man, who's long past the point where hormones rule my every minute. I've literally decades of experience at this biology thing. But if a scantily-clad female, especially an attractive one, suddenly pops into my field of view, well, bluebell, she will immediately reduce my insouciance to a quivering pile of jelly, at least for the second or two it takes for me to drag my eyes away. I no longer turn visibly into a staring, slack-jawed, mind-numbed pitiful excuse for an intelligent being, but I must do as Joseph of old did: FLEE. At least whatever is the appropriate form of that action, given the particular situation. "Eyes Front!" Find something inexplicably interesting in the far distant hills. Whatever.

It's a cooperative problem, you understand. You girls stay modest, and we guys will find it SO much easier to keep our eyes focused on yours.

To me, it's just such a creepy idea, that girls have a job to keep young men righteous using their bodies. Though we certainly don't go to the same extreme, the ideas behind that reasoning are part of why Muslim women in certain countries can't go outside uncovered.

Girls should stay modest because God has asked that of them, not to keep young men virtuous and chaste. Girls dont need that job or responsibility. We certainly don't give boys the same responsibilities for girls sins.

If a guy can't have clean thoughts unless women are modest, then that IS his problem. The immodest girl has her own problems to work out.

[BCSpace]

To me, it's just such a creepy idea, that girls have a job to keep young men righteous using their bodies. Though we certainly don't go to the same extreme, the ideas behind that reasoning are part of why Muslim women in certain countries can't go outside uncovered.

The Muslims seem to understand the problem correctly though obviously they've overreacted to it.

Girls should stay modest because God has asked that of them, not to keep young men virtuous and chaste. Girls dont need that job or responsibility. We certainly don't give boys the same responsibilities for girls sins.

If a guy can't have clean thoughts unless women are modest, then that IS his problem.

An immodestly dressed girl is sending the same message to guys that Potiphar's wife did to Joseph though obviously not necessarily to such an extreme. Conscious intent merely exacerbates the problem but doesn't make it any different. Sure, Joseph got out of there, but it's clear from the scriptural example that the girl does bear responsibility also.

To some it may be creepy, but it is biological and when used properly say, within a marriage or courtship, no one has a problem with it. We have to remember that it was God Himself that made our biology and it's us, both men and women that misuse it.

The immodest girl has her own problems to work out

If such had no effect on others, then what would be the problem for the girl to work out?

Edited June 24, 2013 by BCSpace

[Calm]

Interestingly a recent study has shown that women are more attracted to men with beard stubble than to clean shaven ones.

http://io9.com/study...es-my-493130473

Depends on the guy and the quality of his skin...

[Calm]

We certainly don't give boys the same responsibilities for girls sins.

Maybe things have changed, but I remember the young men being taught when I was young that it was wrong for them to try and pressure girls into doing things they shouldn't be doing, that they should be living the standards to make it easier for the girls to live the standards as well, that they shouldn't take girls to places that were less than uplifting or sit alone in the car with her for very long.

Men and women, boys and girls respond to their environment, we pick up swear words because we hear them, we see pornographic images in our heads if we happen to live in a city that allows such to be posted all over in public, we see it at grocery stores if we happen to walk down the wrong aisle. I don't see how one can totally divorce one's thoughts from the images and sounds and smells one is bombarded with. One can avert their eyes at times, but if it is all around them and they have to be aware of it, I can see it being troubling.

I still get flashes at times of some porn I inadvertently saw for just a few seconds as a teen when a flyer blew by at my middle school even though I have had a very, very limited exposure to porn all of my life (well, besides when we lived in Moscow), occasionally stumbling upon it on TV when changing channels before the lock out function got created. I am a very visual person and images can stick around forever in my head. I am grateful to those who choose to dress modestly because that means it does not become a struggle for me to try and erase those images in my brain or at least suppress them. And it is not like I am the least bit attracted to such images, they are just there in front of me and my brain processes them. I do think that those people who intentionally try to catch my attention (well, others who will buy the stuff or be attracted to it, I just happen to be in the same place and time) have a responsibility, a girl who dresses purposefully in an immodest way to flaunt herself is responsible, though certainly not to the same degree as a porn producer, in part for the reaction that others have, just as someone who cooks a delicious cake or creates a beautiful painting is partially responsible for the reactions of others if the cake sets off a craving or the painting causes one to think of a special moment.

Now if I choose to place myself in an environment that presents such things, then I definitely bear a great deal of responsibility and total responsibility if there is no intent by those to be immodest, it is only a difference in culture that makes it appear to me to be so (such as a nudist beach would be disturbing to me for a bit...but probably not that long as long as it wasn't framed in a sexual manner...nudity doesn't bother me, it is inappropriate aggressive sexuality that does).

Now for a young man to blame any active sinful behaviour on a young woman because of the way she is dressed, such as engaging in inappropriate physical intimacies....now that is totally wrong and creepy (she forced me to have sex with her by dressing like a Victoria Secret model just don't pass for me) and perhaps that is what you are meaning.

Edited June 24, 2013 by calmoriah

[BCSpace]

Maybe things have changed, but I remember the young men being taught when I was young that it was wrong for them to try and pressure girls into doing things they shouldn't be doing, that they should be living the standards to make it easier for the girls to live the standards as well.

I've often viewed the effect of an immodestly dressed women as being similar to when a guy gets a girl drunk or slips a substance into her drink. The lowering of inhibitions, the assault on a man's resistance to temptation, seems to be the same. In this case, the man is forced to drink the "alcohol" because he has no choice but to view, if only for a moment.

[bluebell]

The Muslims seem to understand the problem correctly though obviously they've overreacted to it.

Blaming women for men's inability to control their thoughts is not a correct understanding of the problem. It's just plain old sexism.

An immodestly dressed girl is sending the same message to guys that Potiphar's wife did to Joseph though obviously not necessarily to such an extreme.

And yet Joseph managed to control himself. And if he hadn't, I don't think Potiphar's wife would have been any more responsible in the eyes of God for Joseph's sin than she was after he ran away. Her sin was the same, whether Joseph caved or not.

Conscious intent merely exacerbates the problem but doesn't make it any different. Sure, Joseph got out of there, but it's clear from the scriptural example that the girl does bear responsibility also.

Which scriptures are these? Are there any that aren't from the OT, where scripture also teaches that one way to 'fix' rape is for the rapist to marry the victim?

If such had no effect on others, then what would be the problem for the girl to work out?

The problem between herself and the Lord, for not being obedient to His commandments, and the problems within herself, that cause her to use her body to get attention are the ones I was thinking of.

[Calm]

I've often viewed the effect of an immodestly dressed women as being similar to when a guy gets a girl drunk or slips a substance into her drink. The lowering of inhibitions, the assault on a man's resistance to temptation, seems to be the same. In this case, the man is forced to drink the "alcohol" because he has no choice but to view, if only for a moment.

I don't buy that at all. An internal biochemical change that won't go away and a person has no control over and is not expecting (in the case of a drug being slipped into a drink) is significantly different than a visual image that one can turn away from and substitute with other images.

[bluebell]

I've often viewed the effect of an immodestly dressed women as being similar to when a guy gets a girl drunk or slips a substance into her drink. The lowering of inhibitions, the assault on a man's resistance to temptation, seems to be the same. In this case, the man is forced to drink the "alcohol" because he has no choice but to view, if only for a moment.

We obviously disagree on this, but I find it crazy that you would compare the actions of a woman drugged against her will (something she would have ZERO responsibility for) with a man's inability to control himself in the presence of a scantily clad woman. He may be 'forced' to view, but he is not forced to do anything after that. A woman drugged is not just forced to take the drug, she is then forced (though the loss of control of her body and mind) to do things she otherwise would never have done-that is WHY men drug women-because of what they can make the women do AFTER the drug is ingested.

[thesometimesaint]

We obviously disagree on this, but I find it crazy that you would compare the actions of a woman drugged against her will (something she would have ZERO responsibility for) with a man's inability to control himself in the presence of a scantily clad woman. He may be 'forced' to view, but he is not forced to do anything after that. A woman drugged is not just forced to take the drug, she is then forced (though the loss of control of her body and mind) to do things she otherwise would never have done-that is WHY men drug women-because of what they can make the women do AFTER the drug is ingested.

As a wise woman once told me. A man is young as long as he looks, but touching will age him very quickly, especially if his wife finds out.

[Calm]

As a wise woman once told me. A man is young as long as he looks, but touching will age him very quickly, especially if his wife finds out.

However, a man (or woman) should not look any longer than he needs to realize what he is looking at.

[Stargazer]

Edited to delete my temper tantrum. Sorry if you saw it.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Stargazer

[Calm]

Yet that is what you are insisting has been said.

I was responding to posters, not to the video. I was actually disagreeing with bluebell to a degree and agreeing with you that one should take others' biology (and culture) into account when making dressing choices.

Having excessive cleavage is as likely to get a reaction as someone showing too much of their butt because of not having pants that stay up, though one natural response may be repulsion and the other attraction.

It is acting on the instinctual responses as well as whether one attempts to train one's instincts into better controlled areas that is important in judging motivation. Someone who states s/he doesn't care about what others think about what she or he is wearing and yet intentionally dresses for the purpose of being immodest (as opposed to choosing immodest clothing because they are more comfortable or cheaper or stylish) because they like the way they look in it is either narcissistic or really does care about how others respond though it may not be attraction they are looking for but shock value, conforming with others, etc. in my view.

I do think there is some clothing that would count as immodest clothing by what is covered that really isn't because the purpose of it is comfort whether in heat or in sports. I think a great deal of the natural response can be cut down when one realizes that the person is not intentionally trying to get a physical response out of one, while knowing they are trying to be physically, even sexually attractive tends to increase an inappropriate response just as viewing a nude body in a porn movie will get a different response than seeing it in the exact same pose as a corpse in a crime show or as a statue in a museum.

When it does get taught (not here in this thread IIRC except perhaps for BC's remark that a woman dressing immodestly is equivalent to a guy doping a girl's drink) that a girl has some kind of ultimate power over a boy that can cause him to act inappropriately and therefore it is her responsibility not to let such things happen...that is a concept I very much disagree with and agree with bluebell on. No one can be forced into acting sinfully, they are accountable for their own actions (save in the case where they have been doped by others or there is something medically wrong with them they are not aware of or have no option to control...I tend to hold drunk people accountable if they know how they react to drinking).

And I do think boys should be taught just as much as girls are that they too need to act in positive ways to encourage others around them, especially young ladies they are dating or interested in as some do have low esteem and let others' reactions influence them too much, to dress modestly and to not cause inappropriate thoughts in others through their own appearance or actions (for example if I could see it clearly, one of the boys was wearing T-shirt that looked rather violent, if it was---it was rather cartoony so hard to tell, I think that is inappropriate clothing for a young man).

Edited June 26, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stargazer]

I was responding to posters, not to the video. I was actually disagreeing with bluebell to a degree and agreeing with you that one should take others' biology (and culture) into account when making dressing choices.

Great. I love it when I don't read the entire threadlet and stick my foot in my mouth.

My apologies.

[Calm]

No problem, I can see where that first post could be confusing. I added quite a bit more to the post, btw.

Edited June 25, 2013 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

However, a man (or woman) should not look any longer than he needs to realize what he is looking at.

True, but sometimes all of us are a bit slow in that realization.

[Garden Girl]

I live 9 miles from the Redlands Temple.

Gosh TSS... it really is a small world. Redlands was in San Bdno stake IIRC...

Interestingly a recent study has shown that women are more attracted to men with beard stubble than to clean shaven ones.

http://io9.com/study...es-my-493130473

I hate that look!!

Girls should stay modest because God has asked that of them, not to keep young men virtuous and chaste. Girls dont need that job or responsibility. We certainly don't give boys the same responsibilities for girls sins.

If a guy can't have clean thoughts unless women are modest, then that IS his problem. The immodest girl has her own problems to work out.

I was at BYU Education Week one time, and was walking behind several boys toward the dorms and one boy was obviously wearing a sign around his neck. He turned to talk to one of the other fellows and I could read the sign... "Modest girls rock."

Gave me a chuckle...

I understand boys/men's hormones are different, particularly teens... but I completely agree with Bluebell. The boys bear just as much responsibility to keep themselves under control as does the girl in her dress and actions.

One thing that really used to irk me about men... both in the workplace and while traveling with my husband on business... I've always had a sunny personality, an outgoing while ladylike manner... and an easy sense of humor. I found I had to always be on guard... to hold back... to make an effort to hold my natural personality in check when dealing with men... because, if I really was myself and just talked or kidded naturally, it would be viewed as flirting!! Flirting!! Nothing was further from my mind, but men tended to let their egos run away with them... so I was very careful. I could not have my husband's business associates thinking his wife was in any way inappropriate. The same with the men I worked with...

I see this in the boys who somehow think it's the girls who should be the ones following all the modesty rules so they maintain correct thoughts.

GG

Edited June 25, 2013 by Garden Girl