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Bsa: First Compromise Vs Second Compromise


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Not a formal CFR, but if you have any statistics comparing: the percentage of boy scouts molested by other boy scouts to the percentage of LDS missionaries molested by their companions, I would appreciate it. .

For one thing, prospective missionaries -- regardless of “orientation” -- are generally vetted much more thoroughly than prospective boy scouts. Furthermore, in my experience:

1. Young boys are generally less able to protect themselves from abuse than adult males

2. There is generally a much greater difference in physical and emotional maturity between a 12 year old and a 14 year old (or even among young boys of the same age) than between an 18 year old and a 20 year old.

.

Even if we assume, for the sake of discussion, that an LDS missionary is more likely to be abused than a boy scout, I would still be far more concerned about the risk to the boy scout. Why? Because abuse of an adult is horrible. Abuse of a child is worse. And I believe that we should generally hold ourselves to a greater standard of care for children than for adults

Actually, anecdotally I have heard of no boy on boy sexual abuse in Scouts except on this thread, and as to adult on boy vs missionary on missionary I have heard about as many for each. Except the missionary version usually ends with the straight missionary beating the snot out of his companion and then delivering him to the Mission President to send home. I believe that the likely increase is very unlikely.

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Sounds sort of like an example of “the fallacy of the excluded middle.”

Okay, I bite what is the fallacy?

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Safety concerns. As parents of 3 scouts, my wife and I have no concerns with gay scout leaders, so long as BSA protection policies are followed. However, I know that many other parents do have concerns. A large segement of our population still distrusts gays around boys. It is possible that some portion of church leadership shares this concern.

The immediate problem is that approximately one third of all child sexual abuse is homosexual. The risk then becomes very great because the actual percentage of homosexuals in the population is much much smaller than that.

The long term problem is that homosexuality becomes legitimized as a lifestyle choice even if they are chaste and teach chastity. And besides the fact that a homosexual can't act out on those desires if they want to remain worthy in the LDS context, the lifestyle brings with it a host of additional serious risk factors that are added on top of the norm besides child abuse.

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The immediate problem is that approximately one third of all child sexual abuse is homosexual. The risk then becomes very great because the actual percentage of homosexuals in the population is much much smaller than that.

The long term problem is that homosexuality becomes legitimized as a lifestyle choice even if they are chaste and teach chastity. And besides the fact that a homosexual can't act out on those desires if they want to remain worthy in the LDS context, the lifestyle brings with it a host of additional serious risk factors that are added on top of the norm besides child abuse.

Have wondered about that, how does the lifestyle choice square with otherwise living the Gospel. Seems unlikely to me that those negative aspects associated with a gay lifestyle will apply to a chaste LDS member with SSA. But then, I admit to being befuddled by the whole concept of a chaste openly gay scout, or for that matter an openly gay member. My ultimate Earthly Authority discussed this issue and could not understand why on earth a person who intended to live the law of chastity and be a devout member. Would leave the closet, it just seems like a person would have to be a masochist or brain dead to do so. The best we could come up with was they were really referring to overly effeminate men, and overly masculine women.

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But then, I admit to being befuddled by the whole concept of a chaste openly gay scout, or for that matter an openly gay member.

There really is no such concept in the Church. Self identification as a gay person is contrary to the repentance/counseling process of the Church in this situation.

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There really is no such concept in the Church. Self identification as a gay person is contrary to the repentance/counseling process of the Church in this situation.

I think you appear to be wrong about that, assuming we are talking about the LDS Church, it is my understanding that a self identified person with SSA can hold most callings and have a TR so long as they are observing the law of chastity. Why a person would actually come out if their intention is to remain celibate baffles me. We had a young man come out at the pulpit during FastAnd Testimony, but he and his entire family went inactive shortly thereafter.

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I think you appear to be wrong about that, assuming we are talking about the LDS Church, it is my understanding that a self identified person with SSA can hold most callings and have a TR so long as they are observing the law of chastity. Why a person would actually come out if their intention is to remain celibate baffles me. We had a young man come out at the pulpit during FastAnd Testimony, but he and his entire family went inactive shortly thereafter.

Being gay and a former member, I can think of a lot of reasons why an active gay member might very well choose to come out of the closet. First and foremost, you feel like you are living a lie of omission. In our world, most people assume you are straight unless you tell them you are gay. It is also very difficult to accept anyone's love. When someone says they love you or they think you are amazing or whatever, in the back of your mind you are always thinking, "would they still love me or think I was amazing if they knew I was gay." When I finally did come out to ward members, most of them never had any contact with me. I was not so "amazing" to them. But the ones that did still continue their friendship, I felt like they were true friends that loved me for who I really was, not who they wanted to believe I was. Not sure how much sense that makes to someone who has never had to hide a secret about themselves.

Another reason is the false impression single women in the ward get. A friend of mine who is gay but in the closet tells me it is a big problem for him. He goes out with a sister in the ward for the fun of going to a movie for example. She starts expecting a second phone call. When she doesn't receive it, she feels like something about her wasn't good enough. She calls and says something like "we had a fun time, are we going to do it again?" She wants to date. The more you "date" the sister, the more hopeful they become and the more serious they want the relationship. So he just breaks off the relationship. He feels like if he tells her the real reason, it will be all over the ward that he is gay by the next sunday. If he doesn't tell the sister, she feels like she has done something wrong and wants to try and "fix" the relationship. It gets way complicated quickly. He ends up feeling like he can't participate in any of the ward activities because it always, for him, has spiraled down to these hurtful situations for the young woman. So he remains even more isolated from everyone in the ward. In the end, he just went inactive.

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Being gay and a former member, I can think of a lot of reasons why an active gay member might very well choose to come out of the closet. First and foremost, you feel like you are living a lie of omission. In our world, most people assume you are straight unless you tell them you are gay. It is also very difficult to accept anyone's love. When someone says they love you or they think you are amazing or whatever, in the back of your mind you are always thinking, "would they still love me or think I was amazing if they knew I was gay." When I finally did come out to ward members, most of them never had any contact with me. I was not so "amazing" to them. But the ones that did still continue their friendship, I felt like they were true friends that loved me for who I really was, not who they wanted to believe I was. Not sure how much sense that makes to someone who has never had to hide a secret about themselves.

Another reason is the false impression single women in the ward get. A friend of mine who is gay but in the closet tells me it is a big problem for him. He goes out with a sister in the ward for the fun of going to a movie for example. She starts expecting a second phone call. When she doesn't receive it, she feels like something about her wasn't good enough. She calls and says something like "we had a fun time, are we going to do it again?" She wants to date. The more you "date" the sister, the more hopeful they become and the more serious they want the relationship. So he just breaks off the relationship. He feels like if he tells her the real reason, it will be all over the ward that he is gay by the next sunday. If he doesn't tell the sister, she feels like she has done something wrong and wants to try and "fix" the relationship. It gets way complicated quickly. He ends up feeling like he can't participate in any of the ward activities because it always, for him, has spiraled down to these hurtful situations for the young woman. So he remains even more isolated from everyone in the ward. In the end, he just went inactive.

This! Stoneholm hopefully gets the picture now.
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Why a person would actually come out if their intention is to remain celibate baffles me.

Oh, I agree. A few years ago when this whole issue was beginning to make waves in the church, I came to the conclusion that the only way for a gay individual to successfully navigate the waters of a faithful LDS life and remain celibate is to never come out. But then there's the story of the one gay man (can't remember his name) that has successfully married and is raising a family. So what do I know? Edited by Senator
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Oh, I agree. A few years ago when this whole issue was beginning to make waves in the church, I came to the conclusion that the only way for a gay individual to successfully navigate the waters of a faithful LDS life and remain celibate is to never come out. But then there's the story of the one gay man (can't remember his name) that has successfully married and is raising a family. So what do I know?

Many of us "successfully married" and started "raising families." The beginning is easy. Staying the course is the challenging part; obviously for every couple, but even more so for mixed orientation marriages. (I believe you're referring to Josh Weed or Ty Mansfield, both of whom fit the same testimony-driven youngsters many of us started out as).

Daniel2

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The immediate problem is that approximately one third of all child sexual abuse is homosexual. The risk then becomes very great because the actual percentage of homosexuals in the population is much much smaller than that.

Clarification: not homosexual in the sense most people use it, but "male-male" technically speaking (as in how professionals describe it). The problem is that usually either the adult abuser relates heterosexually with others of his own age or he not interested in adults even if he goes after male children. Edited by calmoriah
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Okay, I bite what is the fallacy?

I was just teasing (hence the words “sounds sort of like“) in reaction to what I interpreted as a semi tongue-in-cheek suggestion. In retrospect, I should have added a “smilie.”

Sometimes when I try to inject a little humor, it turns out to be very little humor.

I apologize

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I was just teasing (hence the words “sounds sort of like“) in reaction to what I interpreted as a semi tongue-in-cheek suggestion. In retrospect, I should have added a “smilie.”

Sometimes when I try to inject a little humor, it turns out to be very little humor.

I apologize

Oh darn, I was hoping there was actually a concept which actually reflected the concept. Have never fully understood our getting all hyped on heterosexuality and segregating the kids according to sex all the time and applying the dampers when their hormones kick in. It's a wonder we don't have more people going off the sexual rails than we do.

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Clarification: not homosexual in the sense most people use it, but "male-male" technically speaking (as in how professionals describe it). The problem is that usually either the adult abuser relates heterosexually with others of his own age or he not interested in adults even if he goes after male children.

That "technical speaking" you refer to, cal, is a tendentious dodge, IMNSHO.

Homosexual, being first and principally an adjectival form sometimes employed as a noun, is an accurate and non-misleading descriptor.

It is precisely because homophile advocacy wants to distance itself from the frighteningly high numbers of male on male [and to a lesser extent because the numbers are so much smaller, female on female] child sexual abuse that this wholly invented and misleading "technical speaking" was invented whole cloth and accepted without comment.

We should not uncritically accept such things.

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We should not uncritically accept such things.

I don't. Please show me studies that demonstrate that adults that are attracted homosexually to other adults are more likely to be homosexual pedophiles or even just pedophiles in general.

http://psychology.uc...olestation.html

Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that "in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men...

Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% of cases in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).

In yet another approach to studying adult sexual attraction to children, some Canadian researchers observed how homosexual and heterosexual adult men responded to slides of males and females of various ages (child, pubescent, and mature adult). All of the research subjects were first screened to ensure that they preferred physically mature sexual partners. In some of the slides shown to subjects, the model was clothed; in others, he or she was nude. The slides were accompanied by audio recordings. The recordings paired with the nude models described an imaginary sexual interaction between the model and the subject. The recordings paired with the pictures of clothed models described the model engaging in neutral activities (e.g., swimming). To measure sexual arousal, changes in the subjects' penis volume were monitored while they watched the slides and listened to the audiotapes. The researchers found that homosexual males responded no more to male children than heterosexual males responded to female children (Freund et al., 1989)....

"The man who offends against prepubertal or immediately postpubertal boys is typically not sexually interested in older men or in women" (p. 259).

On a study often used to support the claim homosexuals are more prone to be pedophiles:

In summary, the scientific sources cited by the FRC report do not support their argument. Most of the studies they referenced did not even assess the sexual orientation of abusers. Two studies explicitly concluded that sexual orientation and child molestation are unrelated. Notably, the FRC failed to cite the 1978 study by Groth and Birnbaum, which also contradicted their argument. Only one study (Erickson et al., 1988) might be interpreted as supporting the FRC argument, and it failed to detail its measurement procedures and did not differentiate bisexual from homosexual offenders.

I think all one can conclude at this point is that men are more likely to be pedophiles than women, whatever their adult preference is, and that goes for when the victim is either male or female.

Edited by calmoriah
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I think all one can conclude at this point is that men are more likely to be pedophiles than women, whatever their adult preference is, and that goes for when the victim is either male or female.

It is precisely the "adult preference" dodge that I'm talking about, cal.

Whyever did this become relevant?

In my view, it became relevant because it is tendentious and a dodge in order to make homosexuality less frightening than it should be.

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It is precisely the "adult preference" dodge that I'm talking about, cal.

Whyever did this become relevant?

In my view, it became relevant because it is tendentious and a dodge in order to make homosexuality less frightening than it should be.

We should be frightened of homosexuals?

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We should be frightened of homosexuals?

The extraordinarily high percentage who predate the young . . . of them we should be as afraid as any sheepdog is of a coyote.

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The extraordinarily high percentage who predate the young . . . of them we should be as afraid as any sheepdog is of a coyote.

You talking of age gaps?

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The new policy doesn't seem to be solving one of the basic problems BSA is having.

Caterpillar Ends Boy Scout Support Due To Gay Ban

PEORIA, Ill. — The director of Boy Scouts of America says he's disappointed Caterpillar Inc. will no longer give money to the group.

But Deron Smith on Thursday thanked the Peoria-based heavy equipment manufacturer for its past support.

Caterpillar spokeswoman Rachel Potts said Thursday that the Caterpillar Foundation has decided to withdraw its supports for Boy Scouts of America. Potts says the company believes the group's policy barring homosexual adults from serving as scout leaders is discriminatory.

Potts said the decision wasn't necessarily related to the Boy Scouts of America's recent decision to allow homosexual scouts, while still prohibiting participation by openly homosexual adults.

Other companies such as United Parcel Service and Intel Corporation stopped supporting the scouts well before the recent decision.

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Huh . . . and I stopped giving to The United Way because of their ceasing to direct raised funds to the BSA.

Funny how that works.

I also don't go to or watch Spielberg movies after his shameful and very public ceasing to donate to the BSA.

Strange how that goes around.

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The new policy doesn't seem to be solving one of the basic problems BSA is having.

Caterpillar Ends Boy Scout Support Due To Gay Ban

Good for them. I think this issue is helping people to wake up, and in more ways than one.

I have never given any financial support to the BSA because I believe the people involved can do all of the important things they do without any money being targeted specifically to that organization. I know kids need tents and sleeping bags to sleep in when they go camping, but the funds to get those things don't need to go to or through the BSA. It's just a "brand" thing, and the principles and activites involved in all of it aren't dependent on keeping the BSA organization in operation.

And if people want an organization where gay boys and men get together to go camping and work in community service projects, they can always start their own group.... maybe calling it the Gay Boy Scouts of America, or GBSA for short.

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Good for them. I think this issue is helping people to wake up, and in more ways than one.

I have never given any financial support to the BSA because I believe the people involved can do all of the important things they do without any money being targeted specifically to that organization. I know kids need tents and sleeping bags to sleep in when they go camping, but the funds to get those things don't need to go to or through the BSA. It's just a "brand" thing, and the principles and activites involved in all of it aren't dependent on keeping the BSA organization in operation.

And if people want an organization where gay boys and men get together to go camping and work in community service projects, they can always start their own group.... maybe calling it the Gay Boy Scouts of America, or GBSA for short.

Actually there are groups sprouting up, there is a Baden Powell association, can't remember the actual name which has sprung up which is following the Canadian model allowing gays, straights, lesbians and girls to join the boys.

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