Question About Agency In The Celestial Kingdom

[Veresk]

Hello, I am new here but I have a question that I would like some input on. Today in our Gospel Doctrine class, the teacher said that in the Celestial Kingdom there would be no agency because there would be no evil. At firs t I really didn't like this idea, I think because it feels like something is being taken away: the freedom to choose. But then I had the thought that because at that point in our progression we would have been made perfect in Christ we would have no disposition to do evil. and that the part of me that wants to hold on to my identity of being a little bit evil and not entirely perfect, will no longer be present, that it makes sense that I would not choose evil. But, just because no one who makes it to the Celestial Kingdom would want to choose evil, I still don't think that means that we would not have agency. Any thoughts?

[EllenMaksoud]

Hello, I am new here but I have a question that I would like some input on. Today in our Gospel Doctrine class, the teacher said that in the Celestial Kingdom there would be no agency because there would be no evil. At firs t I really didn't like this idea, I think because it feels like something is being taken away: the freedom to choose. But then I had the thought that because at that point in our progression we would have been made perfect in Christ we would have no disposition to do evil. and that the part of me that wants to hold on to my identity of being a little bit evil and not entirely perfect, will no longer be present, that it makes sense that I would not choose evil. But, just because no one who makes it to the Celestial Kingdom would want to choose evil, I still don't think that means that we would not have agency. Any thoughts?

In a perfected creature, completely knowledgeable about Heavenly Father, the realities of the Universe, and the needs of those around you, there should be no need for restrictions, because being something different than an Ape, and having the beginnings of the higher functions of Heavenly father, we should be self regulating, taking into account all things.

[Robert F. Smith]

Hello, I am new here but I have a question that I would like some input on. Today in our Gospel Doctrine class, the teacher said that in the Celestial Kingdom there would be no agency because there would be no evil. At firs t I really didn't like this idea, I think because it feels like something is being taken away: the freedom to choose. But then I had the thought that because at that point in our progression we would have been made perfect in Christ we would have no disposition to do evil. and that the part of me that wants to hold on to my identity of being a little bit evil and not entirely perfect, will no longer be present, that it makes sense that I would not choose evil. But, just because no one who makes it to the Celestial Kingdom would want to choose evil, I still don't think that means that we would not have agency. Any thoughts?

Free agency (free choice) is an eternal principle, which does not stop with any of the glories, from telestial to celestial, including goodhood. We are all inborn with free agency by dint of being intelligences coeternal with God. Being one with our Father means nothing if it is not completely voluntary. Jesus' atonement would have been worthless if he had not had complete free choice whether to accept the burden which the Father's plan imposed upon him. Perfection may indeed entail the absence of the disposition to do evil or to oppose our Father, but there will still be future spirit children who will rebel on the path to perfection -- even if it be a third of the hosts of heaven. There must needs be opposition in all things. We do no favors to those spirit children if we eliminate all possibility of opposition. Indeed, that would stunt their growth -- Satan's plan all along.

[Lightbearer]

Hello, I am new here but I have a question that I would like some input on. Today in our Gospel Doctrine class, the teacher said that in the Celestial Kingdom there would be no agency because there would be no evil. At firs t I really didn't like this idea, I think because it feels like something is being taken away: the freedom to choose. But then I had the thought that because at that point in our progression we would have been made perfect in Christ we would have no disposition to do evil. and that the part of me that wants to hold on to my identity of being a little bit evil and not entirely perfect, will no longer be present, that it makes sense that I would not choose evil. But, just because no one who makes it to the Celestial Kingdom would want to choose evil, I still don't think that means that we would not have agency. Any thoughts?

I would ask your teacher for a reference for that because I have never heard or taught such an idea. The Celestial Kingdom gives us more freedom not less, nothing is taken from us. However you are correct we will have no more disposition to do evil. It would be like saying God could sin, which is impossible. But I would be interested in seeing this teachers scriptural reference for this idea.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Hello, I am new here but I have a question that I would like some input on. Today in our Gospel Doctrine class, the teacher said that in the Celestial Kingdom there would be no agency because there would be no evil. At firs t I really didn't like this idea, I think because it feels like something is being taken away: the freedom to choose. But then I had the thought that because at that point in our progression we would have been made perfect in Christ we would have no disposition to do evil. and that the part of me that wants to hold on to my identity of being a little bit evil and not entirely perfect, will no longer be present, that it makes sense that I would not choose evil. But, just because no one who makes it to the Celestial Kingdom would want to choose evil, I still don't think that means that we would not have agency. Any thoughts?

We had it before, we will always have it. But we know even as now there will the consequences. But we could choose to stay or go...

[rpn]

Just because people will chose to follow Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom, doesn't mean lack of agency. It means the ultimate in exercise of agency.

[Darren10]

This last Sunday I taught Gospel Doctrine and in my lesson I expanded a bit on free / moral agency. We read that Satan sauoght to take away man's agency and ensure that all persons come to the Celestial Kingdom. Hewas rejected, then rebelled (at least that is how I chronologically read the scriptures) and, of course, lost his battle against the Almighty. It's interesting that central to Satan's plan, (and recall that Satan is ultimately declared as evil and his power "great and abominable") was to take away the agency of man. Why is agency so important? I exlained that I think it goes to who we (humans) are. I shared Psalms 82 and John 10 which declare man to be gods. I asked, according ot the Psalms, if we are children of the "most High"? The answer, of course, is yes.

At this point my own thoughts came into play. I pointed out that of all God's creations only one has the power to say "no" to God. That only one has the power ot choose to say "yes" or "no" to God. That is humans. Why? I proposed that only "gods" have the capability to choose to follow or not to follow God. That capability is moral agency. Rob man of that agency and you'll rob him of his godly inheritence. That's what Satan wanted.

These are, of course, my understanding of Satan's plan. On the flipside, God abusolutely protects our agency. Jesus said in mortality, "thy will be done", and declared to the Father in the pre-mortal existence that the Father's remains with the Father. It seems, from my reading, these were key in the Father choosing the Jesus as the Savior: honoring man's agency and always render the Father's honor to Him by doing the Father's will (in all things). Therefore, agency as well as retaining honor to the Father will be very much intact in the Celestial Kingdom so far as I can tell. By doing both, the Father receives His full eternal glory and man is eneabled to eternally progress before the Father.

[Darren10]

One qestion which comes to mind in Veresk's scenario is what of infants, even fetuses', who have died before experiencing knowledge and choice in this life? It's my understanding that these will grown up in the Millenium and do good for good is all there will be to choose. To me, the question of agency is helped resolved from the doctrines of the pre-mortal existence of man. It makes sense to me that these who have been deprived of learning and growing in mortality on earth are those who may have been diligent in the pre-mortal existence. The war in heaven, which ocurred after we know the Father and the Son stood to ensure man's agency which was very real in the pre-mortal life, and among those who sided with Jehovah were "great and noble ones". It seems to me that their "greatness" and "nobility" came per their diligence in standing with Jehovah and the Father. Tht among these, their diligence was "great" and "noble" enough as to show how "great" and "noble" they would be in keeping God's commandments in mortality, on the other side of the veil. Accordingly, all results are based upon man, mortal or pre-mortal, in his own choosing to follow God.

[Stone holm]

I would ask your teacher for a reference for that because I have never heard or taught such an idea. The Celestial Kingdom gives us more freedom not less, nothing is taken from us. However you are correct we will have no more disposition to do evil. It would be like saying God could sin, which is impossible. But I would be interested in seeing this teachers scriptural reference for this idea.

I think this is close to being correct. Agency to me is more than choosing between good and evil. It would be a pretty dull existence if we never had to make any decisions after we are celestialized.

[thesometimesaint]

I would ask your teacher for a reference for that because I have never heard or taught such an idea. The Celestial Kingdom gives us more freedom not less, nothing is taken from us. However you are correct we will have no more disposition to do evil. It would be like saying God could sin, which is impossible. But I would be interested in seeing this teachers scriptural reference for this idea.

God can sin. But chooses not to. He would cease to be God if he did.

[Stone holm]

God can sin. But chooses not to. He would cease to be God if he did.

Agree, i also suspect that God and other gods may differ from time to time as to how they organize their worlds, just like we decorate our houses differently -- I at least certainly hope that if I make the Celestial Kingdom that I don't look, act, and work just like every other being that makes it. That would be very boring.

[teddyaware]

Hello, I am new here but I have a question that I would like some input on. Today in our Gospel Doctrine class, the teacher said that in the Celestial Kingdom there would be no agency because there would be no evil. At firs t I really didn't like this idea, I think because it feels like something is being taken away: the freedom to choose. But then I had the thought that because at that point in our progression we would have been made perfect in Christ we would have no disposition to do evil. and that the part of me that wants to hold on to my identity of being a little bit evil and not entirely perfect, will no longer be present, that it makes sense that I would not choose evil. But, just because no one who makes it to the Celestial Kingdom would want to choose evil, I still don't think that means that we would not have agency. Any thoughts?

I wonder if this teacher understands the implications of his/her ideas? It would seem to me that if the teacher is correct, in the end the devil wins the free agency vs enslavement debate? How very strange...

[Stone holm]

I wonder if this teacher understands the implications of his/her ideas? It would seem to me that if the teacher is correct, in the end the devil wins the free agency vs enslavement debate? How very strange...

I agree there is a misstep in the logic here somewhere.

[LordUther]

This last Sunday I taught Gospel Doctrine and in my lesson I expanded a bit on free / moral agency. We read that Satan sauoght to take away man's agency and ensure that all persons come to the Celestial Kingdom. Hewas rejected, then rebelled (at least that is how I chronologically read the scriptures) and, of course, lost his battle against the Almighty. It's interesting that central to Satan's plan, (and recall that Satan is ultimately declared as evil and his power "great and abominable") was to take away the agency of man. Why is agency so important? I exlained that I think it goes to who we (humans) are. I shared Psalms 82 and John 10 which declare man to be gods. I asked, according ot the Psalms, if we are children of the "most High"? The answer, of course, is yes.

At this point my own thoughts came into play. I pointed out that of all God's creations only one has the power to say "no" to God. That only one has the power ot choose to say "yes" or "no" to God. That is humans. Why? I proposed that only "gods" have the capability to choose to follow or not to follow God. That capability is moral agency. Rob man of that agency and you'll rob him of his godly inheritence. That's what Satan wanted.

These are, of course, my understanding of Satan's plan. On the flipside, God abusolutely protects our agency. Jesus said in mortality, "thy will be done", and declared to the Father in the pre-mortal existence that the Father's remains with the Father. It seems, from my reading, these were key in the Father choosing the Jesus as the Savior: honoring man's agency and always render the Father's honor to Him by doing the Father's will (in all things). Therefore, agency as well as retaining honor to the Father will be very much intact in the Celestial Kingdom so far as I can tell. By doing both, the Father receives His full eternal glory and man is eneabled to eternally progress before the Father.

It's my understanding that it wasn't Satan putting forth his plan that caused his fall but that he refused to accept Father's decision & his leading of our brothers & sisters away in rebellion. Which begs the unanswerable question what would've happened if Lucifer had accepted Fathers decision and there had been no devil to tempt us...?

[Stone holm]

It's my understanding that it wasn't Satan putting forth his plan that caused his fall but that he refused to accept Father's decision & his leading of our brothers & sisters away in rebellion. Which begs the unanswerable question what would've happened if Lucifer had accepted Fathers decision and there had been no devil to tempt us...?

Lucifer's plan would not have succeeded in creating exalted beings since that requires the ability to make decisions. Good question, however, as to what happens if no one rebels, I suppose you just keep on making spirit children until someone goes rogue. My guess is that the gods over the generations have done this so often that they know out of x number of spirit children you are going to have y percentage go rogue. Another interesting question is what happens if an Eve doesn't fall for the temptation, or what happens if the designated Savior doesn't complete his task like Jesus did?

[LordUther]

Lucifer's plan would not have succeeded in creating exalted beings since that requires the ability to make decisions. Good question, however, as to what happens if no one rebels, I suppose you just keep on making spirit children until someone goes rogue. My guess is that the gods over the generations have done this so often that they know out of x number of spirit children you are going to have y percentage go rogue. Another interesting question is what happens if an Eve doesn't fall for the temptation, or what happens if the designated Savior doesn't complete his task like Jesus did?

I totally agree that Lucifers plan would've failed to exalt us, I'm just saying that he didn't sin because he put forward his plan. I think a good example of this was even our Saviour in Gethsemane wanted to do things a different way if he could, the difference was he submitted to the Father's will, whereas Lucifer was prideful & rebelled.

Who know's maybe there a planet somewhere in all the gods creations where the Eve did resist and that Adam & Eve lived forever in Paradise, & that Father had to create a new planet for His plan...?

[Stone holm]

I totally agree that Lucifers plan would've failed to exalt us, I'm just saying that he didn't sin because he put forward his plan. I think a good example of this was even our Saviour in Gethsemane wanted to do things a different way if he could, the difference was he submitted to the Father's will, whereas Lucifer was prideful & rebelled.

Who know's maybe there a planet somewhere in all the gods creations where the Eve did resist and that Adam & Eve lived forever in Paradise, & that Father had to create a new planet for His plan...?

You ever wonder how long Adam and Eve wandered around in their private nudist colony before Eve said what the heck let's try that fruit?

[Robert F. Smith]

.....................................

God abusolutely protects our agency. Jesus said in mortality, "thy will be done", and declared to the Father in the pre-mortal existence that the Father's remains with the Father. It seems, from my reading, these were key in the Father choosing the Jesus as the Savior: honoring man's agency and always render the Father's honor to Him by doing the Father's will (in all things). Therefore, agency as well as retaining honor to the Father will be very much intact in the Celestial Kingdom so far as I can tell. By doing both, the Father receives His full eternal glory and man is eneabled to eternally progress before the Father.

And God's glory is selfless in that His glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is all about us for Him. That is the true and unconditional love of a real Father. He wants to give us everything He has.

[Robert F. Smith]

It's my understanding that it wasn't Satan putting forth his plan that caused his fall but that he refused to accept Father's decision & his leading of our brothers & sisters away in rebellion. Which begs the unanswerable question what would've happened if Lucifer had accepted Fathers decision and there had been no devil to tempt us...?

There must needs be opposition. Satan was as necessary as was Judas Iscariot. Are they merely roles in a cosmic drama?

[Robert F. Smith]

...............................................

........... these will grown up in the Millenium and do good for good is all there will be to choose

Hogwash.

[Stone holm]

There must needs be opposition. Satan was as necessary as was Judas Iscariot. Are they merely roles in a cosmic drama?

Interesting thought, I believe BY addressed it and said , no the opposition was necessary but Satan wasn't just acting he really is a bad dude that we should not feel sorry for... Course it's popular to throw BY under the bus these days.

[blackstrap]

Plan B exists. Satan defends his actions in the garden by stating that he is just following precident.

Edited June 4, 2013 by blackstrap

[The Nehor]

It's my understanding that these will grown up in the Millenium and do good for good is all there will be to choose.

No, there will be wickedness in the Millenium but it will not be influenced by Satan. Satan is not required to convince us to choose wrongly. When discussing exorcisms one of my priesthood leaders pointed out that you should be careful. Some evil spirits should not be cast out as they are the only spirit in there.

[Veresk]

It's my understanding that it wasn't Satan putting forth his plan that caused his fall but that he refused to accept Father's decision & his leading of our brothers & sisters away in rebellion. Which begs the unanswerable question what would've happened if Lucifer had accepted Fathers decision and there had been no devil to tempt us...?

That was another part of the discussion, that I wanted to think more about....that Satan is the source of evil, so without him there is no evil. My husband brought up the question of that in the temple, Satan can not be there, but people who go there may still have evil thoughts etc..... So, is he still influencing us or is he not actually the source of all evil, or is it that we have a part of evil with us, or that maybe we are not as clean or prepared as we should be before entering the temple? It almost seems like saying that if it weren't for him, we would not be tempted, is giving him too much credit.

[Veresk]

No, there will be wickedness in the Millenium but it will not be influenced by Satan. Satan is not required to convince us to choose wrongly. When discussing exorcisms one of my priesthood leaders pointed out that you should be careful. Some evil spirits should not be cast out as they are the only spirit in there.

Interesting....Do you have some scriptures to back the idea that there will be wickedness in the Millenium? I have been wondering about this.