Wrestling With Polyandry

[juliann]

Juliann,

Think in terms of who really needs welfare. I know that's hard now when so many people who don't need it are getting it. Welfare was meant to be a safety net for those times when someone couldn't make money for whatever reason, because sickness or injury, old age and no they had no assets.

That has little if no connection to polygyny.   There isn't a reason in the world for someone to marry people to help them.  It is a rather uneconomical solution since the reasons you give are not necessarily permanent conditions except for old age...where most would be taken care of by family anyway.  Women aren't helpless anymore.   Welfare needs to be a group project not dumped onto one man. 

[Abulafia]

That has little if no connection to polygyny. There isn't a reason in the world for someone to marry people to help them. It is a rather uneconomical solution since the reasons you give are not necessarily permanent conditions except for old age...where most would be taken care of by family anyway. Women aren't helpless anymore. Welfare needs to be a group project not dumped onto one man.

Which is I believe how it happened in many of the early church communities. One of the only admonitions that the Jerusalem apostles give to Paul is to 'remember the poor', something that he says he was eager to do.

 

All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

Gal 2:10

I remember wandering around the ruins at Philippi and being shown the grain stores used for the poor. Something like a bishop's storehouse. Widows and orphans would have been entitled to help within the community.

Actually, joining the dots, this would be evidence for monogamous marriage within the early communities rather than the use of Levirate marriage customs. That makes sense in view of Jesus's sayings on marriage as seen in the gospels of Mark and Matthew.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Abulafia

[Abulafia]

Another factor to consider is the role of women as missionaries in the early Pauline communities. If they are travelling, then they either have no children or are widowed, (or hopefully are leaving others to take on their duties whatever they were).

 

As previously mentioned, so many women were devoting themselves to full time work in the church rather than marriage, that some of the (later) early communities had to put an age limit on those entitled to help as 'widows'. Releasing women from the cultural restrictions of hearth and home was proving to be very popular! (see 1 Tim 5).  

 

The pastorals - Timothy, Titus - were most certainly not written by Paul and are dated later by scholars.

 

 

Treat younger men as brothers,2older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

3Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7Give the people these instructions, so that no one may be open to blame. 8Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

9No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, 10and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the Lord’s people, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

11As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.13Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also busybodies who talk nonsense, saying things they ought not to. 14So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

16If any woman who is a believer has widows in her care, she should continue to help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need.

 

 

Lots of sexism and judgement against women going on there, but interesting none the less.


The Didache records that the travelling ambassadors are entitled to help from the community purse as long as they do not overstay their welcome. It doesn't mention women as such, but again 'teachers, prophets' and the like would have been taken care of through the community.

Again, thinking about it, though Jesus says some harsh things about family relationships, in his actions, as recorded, he is mindful of the widow. That makes sense, since by the time of his ministry, his mother is most likely widowed.  That special concern does show itself right through the early communities.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Abulafia

[mercyngrace]

I dunno, I can't really see #2 as much more than Abraham allaying his son's suspicions. Was he more correct than he himself even knew, yes, but that is another issue. I also think that latter-day polygyny in many cases did fit the pattern of the binding, or rather its legacy, but I agree that it isn't a straight-forward reading. Perhaps for a different topic?

As far as #3 goes, I would hesitate to completely discard literal readings. OTOH, we do need to adopt more flexibility in reading things like symbols, numbers, etc.

Sorry it's taken a few days to get back, Volgadon. I blame my boss.

 

It's definitely possible Abraham was just 'blowing sunshine' but I like to believe that Paul was on to something when he intimated that Isaac would return from Moriah.

 

I wish I were game for comparing/contrasting polygamy with Abraham/Isaac but honestly, I'm not on the board enough to carry on a decent conversation and the only reason I spoke up at all is because I think the comparison is overused and serves to acquit misbehavior ("...but look what God told Abraham to do!"...) and to relieve folks of the responsibility of thinking through the possibilities that sometimes, people just act badly. Even when they say God told them to act so. Now I'm not saying that is the case. I'm saying that we have an obligation to be sure that isn't the case. 

 

As for Old Testament literalism, I just don't see the OT as historically reliable in a straightforward reading of many/most of the personal accounts which flesh out the text. I don't see that as a negative. I see that as an invitation to see more in the text. 

 

(Though I do believe God can speak through an a$$. I've even been that dumb beast a time or two.  )