Why Mormons Should Not Be Afraid Of Mormon Studies

[CASteinman]

http://www.alexa.com...ondialogue.org#

http://www.alexa.com...withoutend.org#

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/lds.org#

Edited April 24, 2013 by CASteinman

[Helen47]

I worked in the State Education Dept of my state in Australia, Dealing the the accreditations of courses, eg theology/religion of private institutions, the Minister of Education had a committee involving academics from a cross-section of Universities/colleges to asses the standard of the course submitted for accreditation.What I noticed often that the committee were concerned about the reading list for various religion/biblical subjects, in that they were skewed towards the conservative approach to Biblical studies in one particular conservative college. They suggested other scholars from other points of view be included. In your course on the BOM as literature would you include Vogel and perhaps Wesley Walters (The use of the OT in the BOM Mth)?

[volgadon]

I worked in the State Education Dept of my state in Australia, Dealing the the accreditations of courses, eg theology/religion of private institutions, the Minister of Education had a committee involving academics from a cross-section of Universities/colleges to asses the standard of the course submitted for accreditation.What I noticed often that the committee were concerned about the reading list for various religion/biblical subjects, in that they were skewed towards the conservative approach to Biblical studies in one particular conservative college. They suggested other scholars from other points of view be included. In your course on the BOM as literature would you include Vogel and perhaps Wesley Walters (The use of the OT in the BOM Mth)?

He is including Vogel.

[Helen47]

http://www.jmm.org.au/articles/26020.htm

Interesting blog debate between Marcus Borg and N T Wright on the Bible

[Scott Lloyd]

I worked in the State Education Dept of my state in Australia, Dealing the the accreditations of courses, eg theology/religion of private institutions, the Minister of Education had a committee involving academics from a cross-section of Universities/colleges to asses the standard of the course submitted for accreditation.What I noticed often that the committee were concerned about the reading list for various religion/biblical subjects, in that they were skewed towards the conservative approach to Biblical studies in one particular conservative college. They suggested other scholars from other points of view be included. In your course on the BOM as literature would you include Vogel and perhaps Wesley Walters (The use of the OT in the BOM Mth)?

Wesley Walters — Isn't he the polemicist who stole from a county courthouse the records of Joseph Smith's trial in South Bainbridge, apparently for the purpose of squirreling them away to prevent other researchers from having access to them?

And he's been dead for quite a while.

I don't see why he is particularly noteworthy as a Mormon Studies scholar.

[Helen47]

See Richard Bushman's review of Walter's Inventing Mormonism

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=6&num=2&id=156

No he did not steal them. He wanted them preserved so all scholars could see them. Funny how if you keep repeating a story, it becomes part of usually inaccurate picture of Walters by Mormon writers.

[Bernard Gui]

I would be surprised if this was not very esoteric. In fact, that would be a good name for a Mormon Studies group: The Society for Esoteric Concerns.

Or, as Terry Pratchett populated the Unseen University of Wizardry,

The Senior Wrangler, the Chair of Indefinite Studies, the Lecturer in Recent Runes, the Chair of Oblique Frogs, The Professor of Revolvings, the Professor of Extreme Horticulture, The Professor of Applied Anthropics, the Reader in Esoteric Studies, the Lecturer in Creative Uncertainty, The Professor of Dust, Fluff, and Miscellaneous Particles, the Lecturer in Vindictive Astronomy, the Professor of Recondite Architecture and Origami Map-Folding, Prehumous Professor of Morbid Bibliomancy, Posthumous Professor of Morbid Bibliomancy, visiting professor from Genua and extraordinary football player.

Isn't this the issue Nibley addressed in The World and the Prophets?

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=54&chapid=489

It is our happy duty to announce that since the restoration of the gospel such revelation is again available to mankind, provided they heed the words of the prophets, and do not regard their own discoveries and conclusions as the end of knowledge.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=54&chapid=486

It was a test that few have ever passed: the humiliating test of recognizing a true prophet and taking instruction from the weak and humble things of the earth. Was the wondrous modern age of applied science that began in the nineteenth century to be excused from taking the same test of authority? Remember that the prophets of old came to generations that were very modern in their thinking, smart and sophisticated, advanced, liberated, intellectual; the Hellenistic world, if anything, surpassed our own in those qualities of social advancement. But to come to our own age, do you think the God of heaven is going to come unannounced by prophets? God's declared policy of testing the world by the sending of prophets from time to time was not abrogated two thousand years ago. Men have not so changed, and God has not so changed but that this sure touchstone of past ages can be employed with full effect in our own day. It is precisely those ages which think themselves beyond such things that are most eligible for the warning voice of the prophets. Our message is that God has called prophets again in these days and that the world might well heed their words.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=54&chapid=516

So let us turn to religion. If the student hopes to find in the tomes of the theologians another world from the limited twilight zone of science, he will be sorely mistaken. For the doctors of the Christian church simply abhor eschatology. The history of the Christian church, as Albert Schweitzer has shown us, has been the story of one long, progressive process of "de-eschatologizing" the gospel message; since the victory of the University of Alexandria in the days of Clement and Origen, the Doctors of the church have worked steadily and devotedly on the project of emancipating Christianity from all traces of the old eschatological teachings, and they have dealt most severely with those fanatical sects which from time to time have attempted to revive them. The official position of the Fathers, once they had taken the measure of the primitive Christian teachings, was that the only sound doctrine was that which the trained intelligence of educated men could give the Church. Just as the scientific fraternity disclaimed any concern with eschatology and then gravitated towards it as the needle to the pole, so the religious, claiming exclusive concern with the eschatological message of the scriptures, employed all their skill and authority to de-eschatologize that message, paralyzing all the eschatology in the Bible with powerful injections of tropism, allegory, and all the other subtle drugs and devices of the schools. The church and eschatology were mortal enemies!

For me, it seems the fanatical pursuit of "Mormon Studies" has as its end the undermining of the prophets.

[ERayR]

See Richard Bushman's review of Walter's Inventing Mormonism

http://maxwellinstit...=6&num=2&id=156

No he did not steal them. He wanted them preserved so all scholars could see them. Funny how if you keep repeating a story, it becomes part of usually inaccurate picture of Walters by Mormon writers.

Let me fix this for you so that it is accurate.

Funny how if you keep repeating a story, it becomes part of usually inaccurate picture of Walters by Mormon writers by Walters. .

[Scott Lloyd]

See Richard Bushman's review of Walter's Inventing Mormonism

http://maxwellinstit...=6&num=2&id=156

No he did not steal them. He wanted them preserved so all scholars could see them. Funny how if you keep repeating a story, it becomes part of usually inaccurate picture of Walters by Mormon writers.

He removed them without permission. And he never returned them except under legal coercion. And he never made them available to other scholars, notwithstanding your assertion that "he wanted them preserved so all scholars could see them."

If that's not stealing, I wonder what stealing looks like.

Edited to add:

Here's a pretty good summary in a blog post by Spencer MacDonald, one of the contributors to this board.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[CASteinman]

Or, as Terry Pratchett populated the Unseen University of Wizardry,

An excellent list and now I must learn more of the Unseen University.

Isn't this the issue Nibley addressed in The World and the Prophets?

Or when he said: "We have met here today clothed in the black robes of a false priesthood"

For me, it seems the fanatical pursuit of "Mormon Studies" has as its end the undermining of the prophets.

I am willing to acknowledge one or two other possible motives:

1. A sincere interest in advancing the cause of the Gospel.

2. An effort to desiccate the Gospel into a dry, lifeless husk appropriate for burning or gritting the path with in winter.

But my instinct is that a large part is as you have stated -- to supplant the authority of God with the learning of men.

[Helen47]

"And he never made them available to other scholars," wrong wrong wrong . He met with Danel W. Bachman and provided him with copies before he returned them.

When I get the letter out of my records and make a pdf record of it I will copy and paste the whole story he related to me at the time he located them. Disagree with him but please do not make up stories.

[CASteinman]

Disagree with him but please do not make up stories.

I think it will always be a question -- was it a forgery?

[diahman]

For me, it seems the fanatical pursuit of "Mormon Studies" has as its end the undermining of the prophets.

Who are the fanatics?

[CASteinman]

Who are the fanatics?

I somewhat think that Temple Endowed Mormons who have classes or meetings on Mormon Studies, where only Mormons are in the attendance and who refuse to open that meeting with a word of prayer to have the Spirit help in their studies are "fanatical".

[Senator]

I somewhat think that Temple Endowed Mormons who have classes or meetings on Mormon Studies, where only Mormons are in the attendance and who refuse to open that meeting with a word of prayer to have the Spirit help in their studies are "fanatical".

Ironic

[CASteinman]

Ironic

[Senator]

Oh, that's quite possible. The point being, that your critique could easily be viewed as more fanatical than that of the individuals your are critiquing. Out of curiosity, are you privy to such an event where the group has refused to open with prayer?

Edited April 26, 2013 by Senator

[CASteinman]

The point being, that your critique could easily be viewed as more fanatical than that of the individuals your are critiquing.

Of course it could. The world is full of irrational people. There are some who could view my words as an existential threat. And others could view them in colors of the rainbow. Doesn't change the reality of things though.

Out of curiosity, are you privy to such an event where the group has refused to open with prayer?.

I would not say "privy". Its publicly discussed -- somewhere on the net -- and rationalized/defended as important to prove that the Mormon Studies group was "unbiased" or something to that effect.

[Senator]

Of course it could. The world is full of irrational people. There are some who could view my words as an existential threat. And others could view them in colors of the rainbow. Doesn't change the reality of things though.

Or, simply, rational people viewing reality differently.

I would not say "privy". Its publicly discussed -- somewhere on the net -- and rationalized/defended as important to prove that the Mormon Studies group was "unbiased" or something to that effect.

CFR please

[CASteinman]

Or, simply, rational people viewing reality differently.

But that wouldn't be the case here.

CFR please

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculiarpeople/2013/04/is-mormon-studies-possible-at-a-mormon-university/

[Senator]

But that wouldn't be the case here.

Yes, it would ....this is such a fun game!

http://www.patheos.c...mon-university/

Thank you. I'll take a look.

[CASteinman]

Yes, it would ....this is such a fun game!

You see what I mean then... you are copying the fanatics of secularism. It is fun I guess.

[Senator]

You see what I mean then... you are copying the fanatics of secularism. It is fun I guess.

No, I'm not. Tag. You're it...

[Bernard Gui]

Who are the fanatics?

Those who give the prophets the prophet's reward.

[diahman]

Those who give the prophets the prophet's reward.

I don't understand.