Spirits Of Animals

[PoisonWell]

I don't see such overwhelming scientific evidence for Evolution that you appear to see.

You're either not looking, or you're closing your eyes to it. Even the church has changed it's initial assertions about evolution.

Check out the Roberts–Smith–Talmage dispute if you don't believe that the church defied the theory, and then took a neutral stance later on.

[Stone holm]

You're either not looking, or you're closing your eyes to it. Even the church has changed it's initial assertions about evolution.

Check out the Roberts–Smith–Talmage dispute if you don't believe that the church defied the theory, and then took a neutral stance later on.

Yeah, it's my understanding that the Church is neutral except as to the final jump to Adam and Eve. Science may not have worked quite all the kinks , but the evidence behind the general theory is very strong and it is the underlying basis of modern biology. One we ignore at our peril when it comes to public policy concerning the overuse of antibiotics, herbicides, and pesticides, etc.

[Buzzard]

I know Joseph Smith said he expected to ride his horse in the Celestial Kingdom. And I can testify that my wiener dog has a celestial spirit, though I may have to fight my daughter over him in the world to come.

[thesometimesaint]

Yeah, it's my understanding that the Church is neutral except as to the final jump to Adam and Eve. Science may not have worked quite all the kinks , but the evidence behind the general theory is very strong and it is the underlying basis of modern biology. One we ignore at our peril when it comes to public policy concerning the overuse of antibiotics, herbicides, and pesticides, etc.

That's the beauty of science it is always tentative(It awaits a better theory). Unlike the more dogmatic assertions of religion. That's one reason I like the Saints position. We pretty much have reconciled science and religion to their sphere's until God gives us a whole lot more knowledge of both.

[Stone holm]

That's the beauty of science it is always tentative(It awaits a better theory). Unlike the more dogmatic assertions of religion. That's one reason I like the Saints position. We pretty much have reconciled science and religion to their sphere's until God gives us a whole lot more knowledge of both.

Some have, I wouldn't want to generalize that assertion too much. But yes, for the most part modern Mormons have been able to avoid becoming trapped in demanding that everything mesh perfectly right now.

[MormonMason]

I don't believe so. Zoo's are struggling right now just to meet expenses. They already have animals that will eat people if they get too close. We have idiots now that think its OK to try to pet a lion. Imagine what a T-Rex would cost.

That is what the Apatosaurs are for. But, then, there might be costs involving that, too. As another aside, someone I know is working on coming up with a way to breed very large dragonflies, as in the ones with wingspans measured in feet. He thinks that genetic manipulation and extraction from old fossils may not be necessary. The only thing stopping him at present is lack of equipment and a proper space. Be afraid. Be very afraid...

[Stone holm]

And the lamb will lie down with the lion, I don't think that meant in the lions stomach

[thesometimesaint]

And the lamb will lie down with the lion, I don't think that meant in the lions stomach

Maybe it is more poetic license. The tribe of Judah is often referred to as a Lion, and the Lamb as Jesus the Christ. The Lamb and the Lion shall lie down together without any ire.

[Garden Girl]

We'll always have some idiot that thinks it's a good idea to bring them to the mainland, and ride around on them like Adam and Eve did.

Ally Oop!!

I always have to wonder about the purpose of insect life... and assume it would partly be for the food chain of other species such as birds, etc... but fleas, ticks, mosquitoes, cockroaches, spiders... what could possibly be their purpose/destiny, and they can cause some serious problems for man, even animals.

And then when Bobby-cat looks deep into me with his pupils big and black and meowwws at me, like trying to make me understand what he wants... I see his intelligence, not just instinct... his desire to communicate to me, his meows having different meanings that I have come to recognize... his little routines of behavior... and his gentleness and affection as he cuddles with me, his purrs indicating real pleasure as I groom him or just love him. He has a spirit and it is intelligent as he is capable of thought proceeses... I see it every day as we move through our days together... what is his purpose or destiny?

GG

[Stone holm]

Maybe it is more poetic license. The tribe of Judah is often referred to as a Lion, and the Lamb as Jesus the Christ. The Lamb and the Lion shall lie down together without any ire.

Uh, does that make sense given Christ was of Judah?

[Brian 2.0]

I brushed my dog's fur to rid as many fleas as possible before giving her flea medicine. I gleefully watched about 100 fleas drown in a bowl of soapy water. What happens to their spirits? Will they be mad at me in the afterlife? God must have known they are only good to be killed (so far as we know) so did God create them just to keep up vigilant? If so, wouldn't fleas understand this "perfectly" in the world to come?

If the fleas used their agency properly and fulfilled the measure of their creation then their intelligences would soon be used in a higher lifeform, and hopefully again fulfill the measure if its creation, on and on until one day hopefully becoming a man. And hopefully not a son of perdition who intelligences will be blasted apart from one another only to start again as a blade of grass.

At least that's how I remember some doctrines that Orson Prattt taught that I read on my mission. Maybe the greatest piece of deep speculative doctrine I've ever read.

[ERayR]

I don't know it is for this purpose I come seeking further light and knowledge. But there are beasts referred to as being in the Celestial Kingdom how do they get there if they just sat around on their haunches? I assume there was some kind of spiritual warfare going on and Satan and his followers at some point got forcefully ejected.

They fulfilled the measure of their creation.

[thesometimesaint]

Uh, does that make sense given Christ was of Judah?

There are no troubles like family troubles.

[thesometimesaint]

Ally Oop!!

I always have to wonder about the purpose of insect life... and assume it would partly be for the food chain of other species such as birds, etc... but fleas, ticks, mosquitoes, cockroaches, spiders... what could possibly be their purpose/destiny, and they can cause some serious problems for man, even animals.

And then when Bobby-cat looks deep into me with his pupils big and black and meowwws at me, like trying to make me understand what he wants... I see his intelligence, not just instinct... his desire to communicate to me, his meows having different meanings that I have come to recognize... his little routines of behavior... and his gentleness and affection as he cuddles with me, his purrs indicating real pleasure as I groom him or just love him. He has a spirit and it is intelligent as he is capable of thought proceeses... I see it every day as we move through our days together... what is his purpose or destiny?

GG

Good Morning GG.

In the complex web of life. When we pull one filament we pull on them all. How many filaments can we remove before the whole web falls apart? Mosquitoes pollinate many flowers. Cockroaches help breakdown dead organic materials. Spiders control the numbers of other insects.

[Stone holm]

Good Morning GG.

In the complex web of life. When we pull one filament we pull on them all. How many filaments can we remove before the whole web falls apart? Mosquitoes pollinate many flowers. Cockroaches help breakdown dead organic materials. Spiders control the numbers of other insects.

Spoken like a true "deep ecologist", but have never completely got my head around sparing polio and smallpox viruses or germs or whatever the flip they are called.

[thesometimesaint]

Those are viruses. I suppose a case could be made for preserving just a few as samples just in case there is a big outbreak of closely related diseases. How we discovered the cure for Smallpox was through Cowpox, a closely related disease. Aside from the terrible toll they took/take on individuals it is their ability to be transmitted to others that really worries me.

[Stone holm]

Those are viruses. I suppose a case could be made for preserving just a few as samples just in case there is a big outbreak of closely related diseases. How we discovered the cure for Smallpox was through Cowpox, a closely related disease. Aside from the terrible toll they took/take on individuals it is their ability to be transmitted to others that really worries me.

I find "deep ecology" a fascinating philosophical concept, I cringe, however, at some of its implications...but, it may prove to be one of the most important philosophical breakthroughs of the 20th Century. I just don't know if I am radical enough to fully embrace it as yet.

[splendidsun]

Wrote this the better part of a decade ago:

http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/12/animals-their-spirits-and-eternal-ramifications/

It has the jist of the major church leader positions from JS's uncreated spirits to Orson's Heavenly Carrot.

[Stone holm]

Wrote this the better part of a decade ago:

http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/06/12/animals-their-spirits-and-eternal-ramifications/

It has the jist of the major church leader positions from JS's uncreated spirits to Orson's Heavenly Carrot.

Interesting argument, but don't accept it. I go for the two stage system that the term "spirit" is used to denote two things, one the eternal intelligences which are not created, and two spirit children which are created by our Heavenly Parents in a spiritual form of procreation. Otherwise all this discussion about the eternal nature of gender just becomes a bunch of silliness. Mind you, i am not saying it is silly, because it isn't it is eternal and a part of the spiritual creation process.

[splendidsun]

Stone holm, that is a fair perspective. It is just one that was synthesized by B.H. Roberts et al. between JS's uncreated spirits, and BY's spirit creationism. Note that folks like the JFS FP and BRM rejected it completely. But it is certainly quite popular now.

[Garden Girl]

Good Morning GG.

In the complex web of life. When we pull one filament we pull on them all. How many filaments can we remove before the whole web falls apart? Mosquitoes pollinate many flowers. Cockroaches help breakdown dead organic materials. Spiders control the numbers of other insects.

Hello TSS...

Yes, working in my garden, I became aware of the interconnectedness as I'd watch the bees gathering pollen, the hummingbirds feeding on the nectar, the trees providing homes for numerous insects, birds... even the raccoons... everything seemed to work in an orderly hierarchy, even harmony, from the tiniest insects on up... But the amazing thing to me... since I gardened mainly with flowers... was how the petals formed patterns of color and design, each petal playing its part and needed for the whole. I had probably 100 types of flowers grouped according to size, color, etc. I planted numerous perrenials, particularly bulbs... and each spring little green shoots would spring up at just the right time year after year, answering some internal message, and soon there were blooms, the crocus and iris being my favorites, but then there were the delphiniums, etc... I could go on and on... the point being, so many flowers would lie dormant through the winter, and then compelled would spring forth for another season of blooming even if only for a matter of a few weeks. Their "instinct" answered for another season...

GG

[thesometimesaint]

Hello TSS...

Yes, working in my garden, I became aware of the interconnectedness as I'd watch the bees gathering pollen, the hummingbirds feeding on the nectar, the trees providing homes for numerous insects, birds... even the raccoons... everything seemed to work in an orderly hierarchy, even harmony, from the tiniest insects on up... But the amazing thing to me... since I gardened mainly with flowers... was how the petals formed patterns of color and design, each petal playing its part and needed for the whole. I had probably 100 types of flowers grouped according to size, color, etc. I planted numerous perrenials, particularly bulbs... and each spring little green shoots would spring up at just the right time year after year, answering some internal message, and soon there were blooms, the crocus and iris being my favorites, but then there were the delphiniums, etc... I could go on and on... the point being, so many flowers would lie dormant through the winter, and then compelled would spring forth for another season of blooming even if only for a matter of a few weeks. Their "instinct" answered for another season...

GG

Sounds like a beautiful garden.

[Questing Beast]

Might as well add my take to the collection: after much reflection this has simplified into "spirit" = "God", and "matter" = "creation". So when the scripture asserts that there is nothing which is not matter that is literally true within creation, "it is all matter". And when the scripture speaks of "spirit" preceding matter or creation that simply means that everything exists in the "mind of God" before it gets created as material in the realm of space-time. The implication Is huge: all matter/creation Is "God" manifesting, so there is nothing that is purposeless or less than part of "God", and such manifestations (from the micro biological to the cosmic or macro verse) all reside within "God's" purview as part of NOW. We are called "the children of God" only because we know of none other life form which shares "our kind of thinking", or level of thought: we are unique in producing physical evidence of our capacity to imagine within space-time, whereas ALL other animals simply exist in the moment and do not manipulate their surroundings or create multipart/complex tools or leave evidence of metaphysical thought, etc. So for as long as we have been on this world we have held ourselves to be vastly above all other life. This may prove to be hubris of the highest degree, but for now we are still apparently far above the rest of living things and only "a little lower than the angels". Speculation on what/who "God" Is will remain with us forever, because we exist here in space-time while "God", the Necessary Cause of Existence remains wholly "outside" of material creation....

[Stone holm]

Might as well add my take to the collection: after much reflection this has simplified into "spirit" = "God", and "matter" = "creation". So when the scripture asserts that there is nothing which is not matter that is literally true within creation, "it is all matter". And when the scripture speaks of "spirit" preceding matter or creation that simply means that everything exists in the "mind of God" before it gets created as material in the realm of space-time. The implication Is huge: all matter/creation Is "God" manifesting, so there is nothing that is purposeless or less than part of "God", and such manifestations (from the micro biological to the cosmic or macro verse) all reside within "God's" purview as part of NOW. We are called "the children of God" only because we know of none other life form which shares "our kind of thinking", or level of thought: we are unique in producing physical evidence of our capacity to imagine within space-time, whereas ALL other animals simply exist in the moment and do not manipulate their surroundings or create multipart/complex tools or leave evidence of metaphysical thought, etc. So for as long as we have been on this world we have held ourselves to be vastly above all other life. This may prove to be hubris of the highest degree, but for now we are still apparently far above the rest of living things and only "a little lower than the angels". Speculation on what/who "God" Is will remain with us forever, because we exist here in space-time while "God", the Necessary Cause of Existence remains wholly "outside" of material creation....

Yeah, that sounds somewhat similar to what the Jehovah Witnesses believe, but don't think it squares with Mormon belief. Spirit is material, that is clear in our doctrine. Intelligences are also beings and therefore matter. There is, it appears, some questions amongst Mormons as to whether "spirits" and "intelligences" are the same thing -- and that is due to the confusing way that the words get used from time to time, which is unfortunately not uncommon in sermons and in scriptures when it comes to some very important terms. An example being the term "gentile" which has a number of definitions. I tend to favor the two step concept because I tend to be slightly literal in some things and so I believe that when God says we are His Children He means it in more than just a metaphorical sense -- namely that He actually sired our spirits. And if He sired our Spirits and the intelligences are co-eternal with God and not created, then intelligences would seem to me to be something other than spirits, since God clearly created spirits. The title of this topic, however, bears on the interesting question of where that leaves animals.

[Questing Beast]

Animals are spirit before (as perceived within space-time) they are material, just like we are. No differences as regards origins.

The confusion between souls, spirits and intelligences is caused by Abraham in the PoGP, so blame him/Joseph Smith.

Yes, Joseph Smith asserted that spirit is also matter. But that works in my paradigm because spirit manifesting inside of creation is both: "God" as Existence must be "matter" as well, for nothing transcending "God" could originate from "God"....

Edited April 23, 2013 by Questing Beast