I Know This Church Is True.

[Rivers]

I heard a very interesting testimony this last fast Sunday. A young boy went up to bear his testimony and started off with the usual script saying, "I like to bear my testimony I know this church is true." And then to my utter suprise and amazement he said something like, "And I know other good churches around the world are true too."

This also happened to be the same day the lesson on the "The only true and living church" was taught in Sunday school.

Does anybody here not agree with this boy's testimony?

[ksfisher]

I guess that depends on how the word true is understood.

If it means that those churches can do good things and teach parts of the gospel, then yes, they are true in that regard.

If it means that they have the authority from God necessary to administer the ordinances and covenants of the gospel that are needed for us to return to God's presence, then no, they are not true.

[Rivers]

I guess that depends on how the word true is understood.

If it means that those churches can do good things and teach parts of the gospel, then yes, they are true in that regard.

If it means that they have the authority from God necessary to administer the ordinances and covenants of the gospel that are needed for us to return to God's presence, then no, they are not true.

Yes, that is how Elder Eyring described it in his April 2008 conference address:

This is the true Church, the only true Church, because in it are the keys of the priesthood. Only in this Church has the Lord lodged the power to seal on earth and to seal in heaven as He did in the time of the Apostle Peter. Those keys were restored to Joseph Smith, who then was authorized to confer them upon the members of the Quorum of the Twelve.

Terryl Givens has said that mormons are modern day Sadducees in the sense that Sadducees were the guardians of the temple. All God's children are blessed through what Latter-day Saints do in temples.

But I think more children in the church should understand that other churches have truth and goodness as well.

[ksfisher]

But I think more children in the church should understand that other churches have truth and goodness as well.

The only danger in this lies in becoming content with a little truth when there is more to be had. While it is true that many in the church today are content with belonging to the true church and not receiving all of the blessing available through it, it is also true that membership in other churches has prevented many, many people from receiving all the blessings our Father in Heaven has for them in this life. All need to be open to learning more.

[Tacenda]

The only danger in this lies in becoming content with a little truth when there is more to be had. While it is true that many in the church today are content with belonging to the true church and not receiving all of the blessing available through it, it is also true that membership in other churches has prevented many, many people from receiving all the blessings our Father in Heaven has for them in this life. All need to be open to learning more.

I'm not blasting this quote, but will you tell me now what is the more truth or blessings in this church, because it has been IMHO, watered down. I read the other day, another board, that the church is handing out bibles instead BOM, is this true?

[Duncan]

Yes, that is how Elder Eyring described it in his April 2008 conference address:

Terryl Givens has said that mormons are modern day Sadducees in the sense that Sadducees were the guardians of the temple. All God's children are blessed through what Latter-day Saints do in temples.

But I think more children in the church should understand that other churches have truth and goodness as well.

That is an interesting point, do you by chance know where he said that or wrote that?

[rodheadlee]

I'm not blasting this quote, but will you tell me now what is the more truth or blessings in this church, because it has been IMHO, watered down. I read the other day, another board, that the church is handing out bibles instead BOM, is this true?

Can you be sealed to your husband for all eternity by some other church?

Edited March 5, 2013 by rodheadlee

[ksfisher]

I'm not blasting this quote, but will you tell me now what is the more truth or blessings in this church, because it has been IMHO, watered down. I read the other day, another board, that the church is handing out bibles instead BOM, is this true?

Are you asking me if the church is handing out bibles instead of Books of Mormon? Is it wrong to hand out one instead of the other?

Has the church lost the priesthood? Are the temples closed? Is revelation not received by the leaders of our church, both on a local and general level?

We do have the priesthood. The ordinances and covenants of the gospel are administered in the temples. Our leaders do receive revelation.

last days, that the ^bmountain of the Lord’s ^chouse shall be ^destablished in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all ^enations shall flow unto it.

go up to the ^bmountain of the Lord, to the ^chouse of the God of Jacob; and he will ^dteach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of ^eZion shall go forth the ^flaw, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Isaiah Ch 2:2-3

[edited for a grievous spelling error]

Edited March 5, 2013 by ksfisher

[bluebell]

I'm not blasting this quote, but will you tell me now what is the more truth or blessings in this church, because it has been IMHO, watered down. I read the other day, another board, that the church is handing out bibles instead BOM, is this true?

The church has been giving out free Bibles as well as free BOMs for years (decades or longer). Is there something bad about that?

And have you forgotten about the blessings which come from being able to enter in at the straight gait (baptism)? Being led by a prophet? The temple?

Edited March 5, 2013 by bluebell

[Tacenda]

Can you be sealed to your husband for all eternity by some other church?

I have a different take, I believe that I'll be with my family no matter what. I guess I don't believe in kingdoms, maybe neighborhoods. I have a strong feeling that when we die we'll be doing or be with the people we surround ourselves with. It's since I've read several NDE's that I feel this way. And I believe our beliefs will be similar also. So maybe that athiest that didn't believe won't be with God but I don't believe they'll be in hell. Kind of weird I know. Now I'm even wondering about reincarnation, don't laugh. What if we do live many different lives, sounds more interesting than birthing babies for eternity or being nameless to all those babies for eternity and having nothing to do with them, how am I going to spend time with my original kids if they are off creating worlds too? Now this doctrine isn't even taught or we are hiding it from outsiders. Why not a life of living in different times? Back to the topic at hand, did you know that Joseph and his family, or atleast his dad believed in Universalism? That's very similar to the belief in never going to hell. Why does the BOM speak of a hell, and fire and damnation? But now in our faith we don't really believe in an actual place called hell? The different changes in our church have me going, ok, what do we believe in!?!? Maybe that's why I'm sailing down the ocean on my own accord. And maybe the Lord wants me to think, wonder or even challenge? Edited March 5, 2013 by Tacenda

[Walden]

I guess that depends on how the word true is understood.

If it means that those churches can do good things and teach parts of the gospel, then yes, they are true in that regard.

If it means that they have the authority from God necessary to administer the ordinances and covenants of the gospel that are needed for us to return to God's presence, then no, they are not true.

This defense of the "true" church doesn't sound much different than any other defense of the "true" church as espoused by Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th Day Adventist, etc., all of whom claim to the the "true church," and all of whom believe, as much as any faithful Mormon, that the fullness of salvation can only be obtained through the beliefs, practices and rituals of their particular church.

[pmccombs1]

If it means that they have the authority from God necessary to administer the ordinances and covenants of the gospel that are needed for us to return to God's presence, then no, they are not true.

What does having authority have to do with truth? Are we talking "true church" in the same way an entomologist might classify a "true spider?"

[Damien the Leper]

I commend the boy and would encourage him to explore what those words mean on a deeper and much more significant level than that of how it is used in church and during testimony.

Also, what does true even mean? Most often in this type of dialogue, there really isn't any kind of "absolute truth." In fact, it seems that truth is based on beliefs, claims and opinions...which are hardly arbiters of actual truth...whatever that may be.

[Alvino]

Can you be sealed to your husband for all eternity by some other church?

Will death get you divorced if you are a not a Mormon? Will non-temple marriage and the love that united non-LDS families not mean anything after they die?

[ksfisher]

What does having authority have to do with truth? Are we talking "true church" in the same way an entomologist might classify a "true spider?"

I'm using the word true as it's used in testimony meetings. Not being an entomologist, I'm not sure how an entomologist would talk about a "true spider."

[Rivers]

That is an interesting point, do you by chance know where he said that or wrote that?

http://terrylgivens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Old_Thing.pdf

Its in this paper somewhere. I think he also brought this up in his Mormon Stories interview with John Dehlin.

[rodheadlee]

I have a different take, I believe that I'll be with my family no matter what. I guess I don't believe in kingdoms, maybe neighborhoods. I have a strong feeling that when we die we'll be doing or be with the people we surround ourselves with. It's since I've read several NDE's that I feel this way. And I believe our beliefs will be similar also. So maybe that athiest that didn't believe won't be with God but I don't believe they'll be in hell. Kind of weird I know. Now I'm even wondering about reincarnation, don't laugh. What if we do live many different lives, sounds more interesting than birthing babies for eternity or being nameless to all those babies for eternity and having nothing to do with them, how am I going to spend time with my original kids if they are off creating worlds too? Now this doctrine isn't even taught or we are hiding it from outsiders. Why not a life of living in different times? Back to the topic at hand, did you know that Joseph and his family, or atleast his dad believed in Universalism? That's very similar to the belief in never going to hell. Why does the BOM speak of a hell, and fire and damnation? But now in our faith we don't really believe in an actual place called hell? The different changes in our church have me going, ok, what do we believe in!?!? Maybe that's why I'm sailing down the ocean on my own accord. And maybe the Lord wants me to think, wonder or even challenge?

I've had an NDE. It wasn't pretty. Hell is a state of being (for the lack of better words). It's being cut off from God, Christ and your family for all eternity and knowing it could have been different if you would only just have listened to that little voice in your head, the Light of Christ. How do we know which voice is His voice?

Ether 4:

12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for ^agood cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will ^bnot believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the ^clight, and the ^dlife, and the ^etruth of the world.

[pmccombs1]

I'm using the word true as it's used in testimony meetings. Not being an entomologist, I'm not sure how an entomologist would talk about a "true spider."

That doesn't make it any more clear about what you mean. In testimony meeting, what do we mean when we say "true?" In many cases, that seems to be a word we learn to say out of necessity. It is part of the vocabulary, "The church is true." What does that mean?

I know what "true" means in discrete math, for instance. That is an objective, logical truth that is easily demonstrated. Sometimes we think of truth in the sense of a faithfulness in narrative or witness; it's a Just accounting. A scientific truth attempts to accurately describe material reality, and to model past, present, and future to a high degree of accuracy with regards to what can be reliably observed and measured. Aesthetic truth might appeal to visual senses, poetic truth to the soul. There are perhaps many varieties of truth, and what do we mean when we say something is "true?"

Now, let me continue the analogy of the entomologist. In this case, "truth" depends very much on the objective definition of "spider" as a genus, or family of related things. In this sense, a "true spider" is an organism that can be classified in a specific group because of certain attributes that the creature possesses. There might be other creatures that cleverly disguise themselves to look like spiders, but lack certain features that would grant them access into that group as legitimate members. We might call them "false spiders" because they look like spiders, but really aren't.

So, that sort of truth depends on our answer to the question, "What is a church, really?" And it doesn't necessarily follow that only one thing can reside within a classification; there isn't, for example, only one true species of spider. There are many that qualify. What are the criteria?

I can understand and agree when I hear my church described as a true church. I find that the claim, the only true church, however...

[rodheadlee]

Will death get you divorced if you are a not a Mormon? Will non-temple marriage and the love that united non-LDS families not mean anything after they die?

Aren't you a confirmed athiest? We'll just be worm chow.

[rodheadlee]

I commend the boy and would encourage him to explore what those words mean on a deeper and much more significant level than that of how it is used in church and during testimony.

Also, what does true even mean? Most often in this type of dialogue, there really isn't any kind of "absolute truth." In fact, it seems that truth is based on beliefs, claims and opinions...which are hardly arbiters of actual truth...whatever that may be.

I commend the boy too. He reminds me of BY, in some of the things he said.

What does true mean? To me it means Christ started this Church through Joseph Smith.

[3DOP]

Arguing what true means now?

In context, of true church, it is a claim of exclusivity. It seems crazy to proclaim an apostasy of all other churches, establish your own with apostles, priesthood, and prophets, and then refrain from making the claim to be the one true church...EXCLUSIVELY. If you guys don't want to make that claim anymore that's okay by me, but it seems like it makes complete nonsense of LDS origins.

[Walden]

I commend the boy too. He reminds me of BY, in some of the things he said.

What does true mean? To me it means Christ started this Church through Joseph Smith.

Then truth must be relative and dependent on perspective, since any number of adherents to a "restoration" religion, such as the Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Church of Christ and/or any number of offshoots of the mainstream LDS church claim that their church is the true church of Christ, restored by their respective founder with direction from Christ.

[blackstrap]

To stretch the spider analogy,consider the Daddy longlegs. Most people seeing it would say it is a spider because it has 8 legs. For most people ,that is what make a spider a spider. Problem is, it does not fully fit the definition of spider according to a standardized definition in biology. So it is an animal but not a spider. It is an arachnid but not a spider.

The Church is true. In what way? There are a lot of churches( arachnids) .Some even look a lot like the true church( spider) .As far as we know there may be other places on or off the earth where the same organization exists ie. the 10 tribes or what have you. But for most there is only one way to obtain the ordinances necessary for progression.

( this whole analogy of churches and spiders is a bit Freudian )

[blackstrap]

Then truth must be relative and dependent on perspective, since any number of adherents to a "restoration" religion, such as the Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Church of Christ and/or any number of offshoots of the mainstream LDS church claim that their church is the true church of Christ, restored by their respective founder with direction from Christ.

Go to Boston and see how many people " claim " to be Irish.

[3DOP]

I am Catholic as many of you know. We make the same claim as most Mormons, to have found the one true church. That doesn't mean that we think everybody else is completely wrong about everything. Even the devil says the truth sometimes. If the devil says that 2 + 2 = 4, do Mormons and Catholics reject it? No. But that doesn't mean we can recommend the devil to anybody. Nor can we recommend other churches to anybody. All of the churches that claim to be one and true, know that truth is found everywhere, but that doesn't give us the license to diminish and gloss over different teachings and practices that are so serious that it means they can't even go to church with us.