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Topic Of Conversation With Tbm Friends Who Agreed It'S A Problem


Tacenda

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http://www.ksl.com/i..._cid=featured-4

What should we as LDS women start to do to change this? It's almost like a virus that can start and spread. I have to admit that this isn't a problem to me now that I'm not striving to be perfect in the LDS church anymore. But I'll have to admit that I still have depression anyway.

Here is one of the comments in the Comment Section...

"A few quotes from Spenser Kimball empahasise the type of perfection that is expected whether taught as strongly as Kimball or watered down somewhat by the average LDS member.

"Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin" (p.164).

"In the context of the spirit of forgiveness, one good brother asked me, "Yes, that is what ought to be done, but how do you do it? Doesn't that take a superman?' 'Yes,' I said, 'but we are commanded to be supermen. Said the Lord, 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.' (Matt. 5:48.) We are gods in embryo, and the Lord demands perfection of us.'" (p. 286

Even those who say we are saved by Grace after all we can do, leaves a nagging doubt if we have done all we can do. Is all we can do just attending church once a month or is it support of the Quorom stake and elders, journaling, food storage, accepting every calling, doing family home evenings ect.. How much is all we can do how righteuos is righteous enough."

And another one I found interesting...

"I'm not LDS, but I too went through a time, when i was in the Air Force, when i took over a supervisory position, and felt a great load on me. The biggest load was social expectations, and I think this is what the study is trying to highlight. I dont think they are trying to target LDS women, i think they are trying to send a message to LDS women and the Church to take some time for themselves without feeling guilty. I see LDS neighbors that are run, run, run, and I can see the fatigue around their eyes, and wonder why they cant take some time for themselves and slow down a little. A lot of these activities they are participating in are make work, in my opinion, and there is similar pressure in other churches. The guilt is the biggest factor. If you dont serve, you are wasting the Lord's time. But Jesus said to love your neighbor as you would yourself, which means you shouldnt love your neighbor more than yourself, or less than your self, but the same as yourself. So for each moment you give to your neighbor, you should set aside time for yourself as well. You need to take care of yourself. Since i've realized this, I am much happier. I can do both, without guilt."

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I would advise a good talk on the impossibility of perfection without the Savior. The Book of Mormon is clear that we were given weakness in this life for a reason. It is a gift. Stop railing against it. Also remember that the Lord is more forgiving and charitable then the most forgiving and charitable of his servants. This includes President Kimball.

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You don't see a huge problem with that study? They merely asked depressed people why they were depressed and concluded with "may be....". Feelings of worthlessness are a symptom of depression not the cause. Depressed atheists feel worthless, too. And then they drop this "The other four factors, Doty found, were genetics, history of abuse, family relationships and feeling judged by others." Are you buying that whatever goes on at church is more significant than genetics, abuse, and family relationships?

None of these studies can be taken seriously until they account for the multiple studies that prove the opposite, regular church attenders are happier (regardless of affiliation). It's not even a Mormon thing.

The church needs to rethink some of its policies towards women, but expecting perfect isn't one of them.

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Depression is the lot of some people, no matter how well they live their lives. it is not externally induced, but can easily be externally exacerbated. Mormon Heretic has posted something about "Toxic Perfectionism" which all too many people fall prey to. We all have to learn that yes, becoming perfect is a commandment, but we also have to learn that it is a process, which, like the building of Rome, did not and does not happen in a day.

Depression can be alleviated by positive spiritual experiences, but often a depressed individual has to really work just to pray and to feel the spirit in church, etc. Going to church, mingling with good and loving people, can really help.

I do know that in the redemption of Christ we have hope of finally becoming perfect . "These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood." (D&C 76:69)

Glenn

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Maybe it's because we're told we should be.

That is certainly a possibility, but it does not address other studies that use other measurements. And if LDS women believe they are happier, why would they then perceive themselves as depressed or feeling worthless?

Unless you are suggesting they were lying on the happiness study for some reason....which seems highly unlikely if being perfect was so important to us all.

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That is certainly a possibility, but it does not address other studies that use other measurements. And if LDS women believe they are happier, why would they then perceive themselves as depressed or feeling worthless?

Unless you are suggesting they were lying on the happiness study for some reason....which seems highly unlikely if being perfect was so important to us all.

You got me...I'm only thinking they might want to put a good front up possibly. The study on depression might be women seeking help for depression possibly after suppressing true feelings for too long.
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Isn't there a study out there that shows LDS women rate themselves as happier than nonLDS women do?

I'm taking the lazy route, we do have LDS researchers finding the same things (or extrapolating from them) as we see here (I've never seen one that treated LDS women as a separate class) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_happiness

Surveys by Gallup, the National Opinion Research Center and the Pew Organization conclude that spiritually committed people are twice as likely to report being "very happy" than the least religiously committed people.[12] An analysis of over 200 social studies contends that "high religiousness predicts a lower risk of depression and drug abuse and fewer suicide attempts, and more reports of satisfaction with sex life and a sense of well-being,"[10] and a review of 498 studies published in peer-reviewed journals concluded that a large majority of them showed a positive correlation between religious commitment and higher levels of perceived well-being and self-esteem and lower levels of hypertension, depression, and clinical delinquency.[13] A meta-analysis of 34 recent studies published between 1990 and 2001 found that religiosity has a salutary relationship with psychological adjustment, being related to less psychological distress, more life satisfaction, and better self-actualization.[14] Finally, a recent systematic review of 850 research papers on the topic concluded that "the majority of well-conducted studies found that higher levels of religious involvement are positively associated with indicators of psychological well-being (life satisfaction, happiness, positive affect, and higher morale) and with less depression, suicidal thoughts and behavior, drug/alcohol use/abuse."[15]

That is a lot of studies to ignore.....but I guess if you want to believe LDS women are a different species than other religious women and are clinically depressed because Sunday School teachers told them to be perfect, a newspaper article will do.

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You don't see a huge problem with that study? They merely asked depressed people why they were depressed and concluded with "may be....". Feelings of worthlessness are a symptom of depression not the cause. Depressed atheists feel worthless, too. And then they drop this "The other four factors, Doty found, were genetics, history of abuse, family relationships and feeling judged by others." Are you buying that whatever goes on at church is more significant than genetics, abuse, and family relationships?

None of these studies can be taken seriously until they account for the multiple studies that prove the opposite, regular church attenders are happier (regardless of affiliation). It's not even a Mormon thing.

The church needs to rethink some of its policies towards women, but expecting perfect isn't one of them.

I don't know that we have good numbers on Mormonism specifically and whether or not Mormons are happy, but it is true that Utah suffers quite high levels of depression.

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I don't know that we have good numbers on Mormonism specifically and whether or not Mormons are happy, but it is true that Utah suffers quite high levels of depression.

As a general rule the Saints are happier than the general population. Utah doesn't suffer from higher rates of depression. It has a high rate of use of prescription antidepressants, but that is for a variety of factors. Including a much lower rate for alcohol use, and other non prescribed drugs.

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Strive for Excellence! NOT perfection! That's how I think it should be viewed. Try to excel at being the best person you can be....try to excel at work...try to excel in church callings. etc etc. And know, all the while, that you WILL make mistakes, but they are to learn from.

I've never been a mom...but if I had had children, this is what I would have installed in them! Forget all that silly 'be perfect' crap! I would have never put that pressure on my kids. Hitch your wagon to a star....in other words, always move forward and up! Even if you fall by the way side on occasion...and you will...get up and keep moving ahead. You can never ever be 'perfect'..but you CAN always strive TOWARDS it!

( you should never get to being 'perfect' anyway! Then you are stalled and there's no where to go, but be translated! LOL. 'Perfection' should always be JUST a little out of reach...so you keep that motivation to go forward! )

Red

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All that trying is exhausting. Some people are overachievers in everything they do. Some people are achievers in a few areas. Some people are reasonably good at one thing. Many people just try to get up each day and not kill somebody.

Occasionally ,I think a lot of us are just 'cannon fodder ' in the war between overachievers.

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As a general rule the Saints are happier than the general population. Utah doesn't suffer from higher rates of depression. It has a high rate of use of prescription antidepressants, but that is for a variety of factors. Including a much lower rate for alcohol use, and other non prescribed drugs.

Perhaps things have changed radically in 6 years.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695231614/Utah-leads-the-nation-in-rates-of-depression.html?pg=all

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Perhaps things have changed radically in 6 years.

http://www.deseretne...ion.html?pg=all

Maybe depressed states could be attributed to the higher elevations. http://www.my719moms...use-depression/

Quote from the article...

"A study from the University of Utah's School of Medicine says living at a high altitude, like Colorado, could trigger depression, possibly even leading to a higher rate of suicides.

Ralph Lundgren was diagnosed with depression in the 80's. He's thought of suicide off and on, but his depression never goes away.

"It's a constant, but sometimes it gets much worse," Lundgren explains. He says the risk when it does is high."

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Maybe depressed states could be attributed to the higher elevations. http://www.my719moms...use-depression/

Quote from the article...

"A study from the University of Utah's School of Medicine says living at a high altitude, like Colorado, could trigger depression, possibly even leading to a higher rate of suicides.

Ralph Lundgren was diagnosed with depression in the 80's. He's thought of suicide off and on, but his depression never goes away.

"It's a constant, but sometimes it gets much worse," Lundgren explains. He says the risk when it does is high."

Yes, it's hard to separate them because all the high altitude states also have a higher percentage of LDS residents.

Is Utah at a higher altitude than its neighbors?

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Yes, it's hard to separate them because all the high altitude states also have a higher percentage of LDS residents.

Is Utah at a higher altitude than its neighbors?

No, according to this Yahoo answer below:

Geography

Santa Fe is located at [show location on an interactive map] 35°40′2″N 105°57′52″W / 35.66722, -105.96444 (35.667231, -105.964575)[6].

According to the United States Census Bureau, the city has a total area of 37.4 square miles (96.9 km²), of which, 37.3 square miles (96.7 km²) of it is land and 0.1 square miles (0.2 km²) of it (0.21%) is water.

Santa Fe is located at 7,000 feet (2134 m) above sea level, making it the highest state capital in the United States. The highest state capitals are:

1. Santa Fe, New Mexico – 7,199 ft (2134 m) right through the center of the Capitol building

2. Cheyenne, Wyoming – 6,062 ft (1,848 m)

3. Denver, Colorado – 5,280 ft (1,609.3 m)

4. Carson City, Nevada – 4,802 ft (1,463 m)

5. Salt Lake City, Utah – 4,226 ft (1,288 m)

6. Helena, Montana – 4,058 ft (1,237 m)

Source: United States Geological Survey

Something interesting about my link above with the U of U study, maybe it's a quick answer to the depression quandry. So great question!

http://psychcentral....risk/18248.html Another link to a U of U study.

ETA: New Mexico also has a high rate of depression! So it all may very well be connected to higher elevations or higher LDS per capita, I'll do some checking!

OK, back from checking.

I found an older "mapping" of the predominately LDS populations:

http://www.adherents.com/maps/map_us_lds.jpg

Conclusion to this "not so scientific" experiment is, there is none. I've no clue if it's the high LDS population that is the problem or higher elevations that is the problem..

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Again, the copious studies MUST be addressed or all that is being expressed is bias that leans toward slander. When there is a link made between Mormonism and anything else, religiosity has to be measured or Mormonism is not being measured. All it does is prove that Mormonism is healthy because it is the active Mormons who are healthy. If you live your religion instead of just declaring it....you have far lower rates of mental problems. When suicide is probably the prime criteria in measuring depression rates, this study on the low rate of priesthood holding Mormon youth proves that Mormonism protects against suicide. You can only debate why but you can't deny it unless the research is countered. I always shake my head when I see eagerness to implicate "Utah" in something that actually supports living a Mormon (or religious) life! It is irresponsible and intellectually dishonest.

A popular theory among Utahns and observers of the state is that the LDS Church's culture of excellence and the pressure of high expectations explains the relatively high suicide rate in Utah. That theory was conclusively debunked by a recently published study. Sterling C. Hilton, assistant professor of statistics at BYU, concluded "no evidence suggests that Church demands and pressures on its members account for the high suicide rate in Utah." The study, published in the American Journal of Epidemiology, found that:

- Active LDS men commit suicide seven times less frequently than their unchurched peers.

- Activity in any religion reduces the liklihood of a young man committing suicide, but activity in the LDS Church reduces that liklihood dramatically, largely because it reduces the risk factor of alcoholism. Alcohol abuse has a high positive correlation with suicide.

The Hilton study reaches the same conclusion as Dan Judd in his book, "Religion, Mental Health and the Latter-day Saints." Judd found that most universities nationwide have much higher suicide rates than BYU which is predominantly LDS.

American Journal of Epidemiology - March 01, 2002

Suicide Rate Above National Average

Previous studies have used population data to demonstrate an inverse association between suicide rates and religious commitment. This report examines Utah suicide rates for young men aged 15--34 years, stratified by their membership in and commitment to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), the predominant religion in Utah. All state death records for males from 1991 to 1995 were obtained and linked to LDS church deceased membership records to obtain a measure of religious commitment that is not self-reported. Religious commitment for LDS church members was determined by age-appropriate priesthood office. Of the 27,738 male deaths reported, 15,555 (56%) linked to an LDS church record using a probabilistic linking program. Using active (high religious commitment) LDS as the reference group, the less-active (low religious commitment) LDS group had relative risks of suicide ranging from 3.28 (ages 15--19 years) to 7.64 (ages 25--29 years); nonmembers of the LDS church had relative risks ranging from 3.43 (ages 15--19 years) to 6.27 (ages 20--24 years). Although the mechanism of the association is unclear, higher levels of religiosity appear to be inversely associated with suicide.

Hilton SC. Fellingham GW. Lyon JL, "Suicide rates and religious commitment in young adult males in Utah"; American Journal of Epidemiology. 155(5):413-9, 2002 March 1

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I think that there is a much larger issue with how church members treat each other with respect to mental illness. And with what church members expect of each other or think that others expect of them.

You've been gone for awhile, I always notice when you post because I love your avatar....so cheerful and bright.
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Perhaps things have changed radically in 6 years.

http://www.deseretne...ion.html?pg=all

Payne said the study might be oversimplified because states have so many variables in population characteristics, location and approaches to treating depression.

Other studies have shown that the West tends to have more depression and suicide because people are more isolated and thereby more at risk for depression.

Despite the variables among the states, the lack of access to help is a key contributing factor in the rankings, said David Shern, president and CEO of Mental Health America. "States can and do significantly improve their populations' mental health status by adopting policies that expand access to treatment."

Other contributing factors in the rankings were a state's percentage of residents who say they can't afford health care, prevalence of serious depression and suicide rate.

Payne said the report does not conclude nor suggest that lack of care causes depression or suicide. But depression rates can be reduced by improving insurance coverage and parity, making sure qualified professionals are available and educating the public about depression, he said.

The study also notes that the depression status of states is likely to decline in general over the next decade because the number of trained mental health professionals and federal funds to help train them are in dramatic decline.

There is a big issue, I believe from personal experience, to getting proper care beyond just medication given by general practice doctors. When my daughter was suggested to get psychiatric help due to her unique set of issues, there was only one psychiatrist who would accept children as patients in all of Utah Valley. Recently we looked into getting her into a psychologist as an adult, it would take over three months to see one and the ones that we wanted weren't accepting new patients at all.

Utah Valley has too many lawyers ;) and too little mental health specialists I suspect. I can only imagine that every where else in Utah save for SL area has the same issue, if not worse. SL may be better as it likely has more access to specialists with the medical school and major hospitals, but it is also more crowded so who knows. Maybe if BYU ever gets a medical school just like they have a law school that will change.

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All that trying is exhausting. Some people are overachievers in everything they do. Some people are achievers in a few areas. Some people are reasonably good at one thing. Many people just try to get up each day and not kill somebody.

Occasionally ,I think a lot of us are just 'cannon fodder ' in the war between overachievers.

goals-asshole-demotivational-poster.jpg

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Maybe depressed states could be attributed to the higher elevations. http://www.my719moms...use-depression/

Quote from the article...

"A study from the University of Utah's School of Medicine says living at a high altitude, like Colorado, could trigger depression, possibly even leading to a higher rate of suicides.

"It's a constant, but sometimes it gets much worse," Lundgren explains. He says the risk when it does is high."

There is also for Utah and the more 'Mormon' areas a possible contributing factor of genetics as apparently Scandinavians have higher rates of depression (I have heard this reported, not looked into the studies myself) and there is a significant portion of Mormons with Scandinavian ancestry.

There is significant research that the Mountain States including those that do not have high LDS population have higher depression rates, it will be interested to find out if the altitude has an effect and then what that effect might be (lower oxygen available perhaps? could one treat depression with oxygen then?

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