Nephi, Alma, Mormon, The American 12... Really? Where?

[DarthTooToo]

Teaching out of the manual, like a good ol' mormon, I stumbled upon this statement in the #5 Primary manual about D&C and church history, this is what I found but am questioning the resourse and need further light & knowlage. Here ie the pasted referance: "What happened each year on 22 September? How was the angel Moroni preparing Joseph for the work he had been called to do? Explain that during these four years, Joseph also met with many other Nephite prophets, such as Nephi, Alma, Mormon, and the twelve disciples chosen by the Savior in America (see Church History in the Fulness of Times, p. 41)."

So in order to better "explain" I've been of a bit of a wild goose chase examining the referance and it almost reminds me of the crazy scripture chases that we use to laugh about on my mission that came from some of those anti mormon chick tracts we use to find @ ATM & bus stops.

My question is, where do I find a good resourse on what they taught Joseph? You'd think that these big time Mormon Prophets from the Gold Plates might have some interesting things to say. I would think if it's in the manual with a referance it's got to have some history or was this just a mention from Lucy from her history of the Prophet and that's all...

Hoping someone smarter than I can hook a broth'a up!

Thanks!

[altersteve]

There's probably not much, just references to Joseph's meetings with these prophets in other people's journals, etc.

Edited February 5, 2013 by altersteve

[Tacenda]

I was called as an aide for a special needs boy in Primary, we are learning this also, but the teacher didn't go in depth either. Good question and would be curious to know, the teacher had each of the children go home and ask their parents how long it took Joseph before he was allowed to receive the gold plates. Really interesting stuff.

[EllenMaksoud]

Teaching out of the manual, like a good ol' mormon, I stumbled upon this statement in the #5 Primary manual about D&C and church history, this is what I found but am questioning the resourse and need further light & knowlage. Here ie the pasted referance: "What happened each year on 22 September? How was the angel Moroni preparing Joseph for the work he had been called to do? Explain that during these four years, Joseph also met with many other Nephite prophets, such as Nephi, Alma, Mormon, and the twelve disciples chosen by the Savior in America (see Church History in the Fulness of Times, p. 41)."

So in order to better "explain" I've been of a bit of a wild goose chase examining the referance and it almost reminds me of the crazy scripture chases that we use to laugh about on my mission that came from some of those anti mormon chick tracts we use to find @ ATM & bus stops.

My question is, where do I find a good resourse on what they taught Joseph? You'd think that these big time Mormon Prophets from the Gold Plates might have some interesting things to say. I would think if it's in the manual with a referance it's got to have some history or was this just a mention from Lucy from her history of the Prophet and that's all...

Hoping someone smarter than I can hook a broth'a up!

Thanks!

September 22 was the date that Joseph Smith recieved the plates from the Angel Moroni. Google is very good, and more LDS stuff is populating the internet.

[DarthTooToo]

So it's hear say? How is one expected to explain that this happened? Sounds like fluff to me. Moroni's visit to Joseph was documented, well in 1838 anyways, but man we get a whole Sunday School Lesson out the scriptures he threw @ the Prophet... Now we have Nephi (the Man), Alma (the Super Missionary), Mormon (the Historian) & the 12 chosen deciples hand picked by Christ Himself on the Americas pop up in a Primary lesson and we don't even get the whiteness of their robes? Poop!

Memo to the correlation committee: "if you don't have a valid sourse DON'T PUT IT IN THE MANUAL BECAUSE IT SOUNDS COOL!!! And don't ask me (as a teacher) to "explain" it to my class..."

Don't mean to be bitter. Well maybe a little bitter... Thought I stumbled onto some delicious Gosple MEAT and yet it was just a gravy covered ordurve... say la vie *sigh*

[DarthTooToo]

How funny Tacenda I gave my class the homework assignment to ask their parents to explain the Urim & Thummim to them. I'm looking forward to their replys on Sunday!

[ksfisher]

The manual, at least the online version, gives the following as references:

9.

See History of the Church, 4:537; George Q. Cannon, in Journal of Discourses, 13:47; John Taylor, in Journal of Discourses, 17:374; 21:94

[DarthTooToo]

Yeah that's part of the wild goose chase... Here is the 1st John Taylor referance:

"and when joseph smith was raised up as a prophet of god mormon moroni

nephi and others of the ancient prophets who formerly lived on this

continent and peter and john and others who lived on the asiatic continent came to

him and communicated to him certain principles pertaining

to the gospel of the son of god why because they held

the keys of the variious dispensations."

Moroni, Mormon, Nephi? If they were dispensation heads that's news to me...

The second leaves me scratching my head and saying "what dose that have to do with other prophets visiting Joseph?"

2nd:

We are now gathered together to Zion. For what? To build up Zion, and to accomplish the purposes of the

Lord pertaining to the human family upon the earth. And being gathered together we are organized with

apostles and prophets, with presidents and their counselors, with bishops and their counselors, with elders,

priests teachers and deacons. We are organized according to the order of God, and these very principles that

look small to us emanate from God. We have seventies and high priests, and all these men hold certain

positions which it is expected of them that they will fulfill and magnify, here in the flesh, in the interests of

truth and righteousness; in the interests of the kingdom of God and in the establishment of correct principles

among the Saints of the Most High. We are here to co−operate with God in the salvation of the living, in the

redemption of the dead, in the blessings of our ancestors, in the pouring out blessings upon our children; we

are here for the purpose of redeeming and regenerating the earth on which we live, and God has placed his

authority and his counsels here upon the earth for that purpose, that men may learn to do the will of God on

the earth as it is done in heaven. This is the object of our existence; and it is for us to comprehend the position.

JD 21:94 − p.95, John Taylor, April 13th, 1879

George Q. Cannon:

The Lord here made express provisions as to who should hold the keys of the kingdom, and how those keys

should be held, and the manner in which the authority should be exercised. Men have pretended that angels

have visited them, and that, in consequence they must have authority. This was the pretence made by James J.

Strang. But he did not understand that the oracles had been given through Joseph, according to the revelation

given in March, 1833, to the Church. Others had also had the keys given unto them to enable them to exercise

the power and authority which Joseph held. Now we may come to this conclusion; that God, having once

bestowed the keys of the holy Priesthood on man here on the earth for the up−building of His Church, will

never taken them from the man or men who hold them and authorize others to bestow them. If you will read

the history of the Church from the beginning, you will find that Joseph was visited by various angelic beings,

but not one of them professed to give him the keys until John the Baptist came to him. Moroni, who held the

keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim, visited Joseph; he had doubtless, also, visits from Nephi and it may

be from Alma and others, but though they came and had authority, holding the authority of the Priesthood, we

have no account of their ordaining him, neither did Joseph ever profess, because of the ministration of these

angels, to have authority to administer in any of the ordinances of the Kingdom of God. He never baptized

anybody, nor attempted to lay on hands for the reception of the Holy Ghost; and, in fact, he never attempted,

that we have any account of, to exercise any of the functions of the holy Priesthood. He was a prophet, it is

true, but a man may be a prophet and yet not have authority to administer in the Priesthood. The prophetic

gift, to some extent, is distinct from the Priesthood. Joseph had received the prophetic gift and he exercised it

and he acted as such prior to his ordination. But when the time came for him to be baptized, then a man who

held the keys of that Priesthood came to him and laid his hands upon Joseph's head, and upon Oliver

Cowdery, and set them apart, and gave them authority to officiate in the Aaronic Priesthood, which Priesthood

held the keys of baptism and so forth.

JD 13:47 − p.48, George Q. Cannon, December 5, 1869

If you have the patience to read all that you may understand my inquery? What did they say, teach, expound on to the Prophet? George Q. Cannon is assuming...

Oh the tangled web we weave

-Sir Walter Scott

[Nevo]

Explain that during these four years, Joseph also met with many other Nephite prophets, such as Nephi, Alma, Mormon, and the twelve disciples chosen by the Savior in America (see Church History in the Fulness of Times, p. 41)."

The manual Church History in the Fulness of Times is available online in its entirety (website, PDF).

If you look up page 41, you will see that it states: "During that time Joseph met annually with Moroni at the Hill Cumorah to receive instructions in preparation for receiving the plates. Other Nephite prophets who had a vital interest in the coming forth of the Book of Mormon also played a significant role in Joseph’s preparation. Nephi, Alma, the twelve Apostles chosen by the Savior in America, and Mormon all instructed Joseph.⁹"

Footnote 9 reads: "See History of the Church, 4:537; George Q. Cannon, in Journal of Discourses, 13:47; John Taylor, in Journal of Discourses, 17:374; 21:94." These are the sources for the statement on page 41. They can be found online too. I've added hypertext links to aid your search.

Another online source that may be of interest is Brian L. Smith, “‘Taught From On High’: The Ministry Of Angelic Messengers To The Prophet Joseph Smith,” in Joseph Smith and the Doctrinal Restoration (Provo: Brigham Young University, Religious Studies Center, 2005), 332–45.

[ksfisher]

I think that what George Q Cannon is teaching is that, even though Joseph had angelic visitors, he didn't assume he had authority because of those visitations. Cannon is not trying to teach about the visitors, but about priesthood keys.

The other quotes don't really and much. And to be fair, Joseph may have related that he was visited, but not the content of the visit. But, that's an assumption.

There seems to be enough content in the lesson that, if you were to skip over this part, it would be fine. I believe that the point the lesson is trying to make is that prior to taking on the mantle of a prophet that Joseph received lots of preparation for that calling.

[DarthTooToo]

History of the Church, 4:537 : does not mention Nephi, Amla Mormon or the 12.

George Q. Cannon, in Journal of Discourses, 13:47: George Q. Cannon is assuming in his statement.

John Taylor, in Journal of Discourses, 17:374; 21:94: 17:374 mentions Mormon, Moroni, Nephi & other unnamed american prophets but only mentions that they that they instructed him in "certain principles pertaining

to the gospel of the son of God." 21:94 says about as much as the History of the Church referance.

What I was looking for were specifics of what they taught but I don't think I'm going to find it because it's been lost thru the generations of time.

I will look into the Brian L Smith book and thanks for the heads up!

[DarthTooToo]

Once again just looking for some Gosple Meat... Thanks for all your input!!!

[Tacenda]

How funny Tacenda I gave my class the homework assignment to ask their parents to explain the Urim & Thummim to them. I'm looking forward to their replys on Sunday!

Is this in the manual because she also told them to ask about the Urim & Thummin too!

[DarthTooToo]

I don't remember seeing it in the manual (the Urim & Thummim question) but perhaps it was just inspired LOL! I have to smile when we talk about the Urim & Thummim because if we say magic rocks everyone cringes and rolls their eyes... There is some great stuff in Rough Stone Rolling about the different uses of the Urim & Thummim. It's worth a look!

[DarthTooToo]

Just for the record “‘Taught From On High’: The Ministry Of Angelic Messengers To The Prophet Joseph Smith,” paper pretty much just combinds the 4 other references word for word, not mentioning anything about these other visitors specific messages. the time line even shows the same Journal of Discourse referenced in the Primary lesson. Well @ least we have D&C references for a bunch of other cool gosple guys which said and did some pretty sweet things, so I'm good, I'm good!

[ksfisher]

I don't remember seeing it in the manual (the Urim & Thummim question) but perhaps it was just inspired LOL! I have to smile when we talk about the Urim & Thummim because if we say magic rocks everyone cringes and rolls their eyes... There is some great stuff in Rough Stone Rolling about the different uses of the Urim & Thummim. It's worth a look!

Magic rocks may not work best in a teaching situation, but I think seer stones sounds fine.

[DarthTooToo]

Yeah but "magic rocks" sure get every adults attention in the room, along with peep stones, crystal gazing & scrying... Want to raise some eyebrows and get a free trip to the Bishop's office give them a try!

[Tacenda]

I don't remember seeing it in the manual (the Urim & Thummim question) but perhaps it was just inspired LOL! I have to smile when we talk about the Urim & Thummim because if we say magic rocks everyone cringes and rolls their eyes... There is some great stuff in Rough Stone Rolling about the different uses of the Urim & Thummim. It's worth a look!

I let her know that the rocks were seerstones. And told her about Emma writing down everything Joseph said while he looked in a hat at the seerstone. I only felt comfortable doing this because recently her sister's ward and my sister's (same ward) did a YW/YM's or fireside about it. So the church wants correct teachings about history out there.

[DarthTooToo]

Wow that's a breath of fresh air!

[Calm]

So the church wants correct teachings about history out there.

Speaking of...you might want to talk to your bulletin person if they announce SS lessons on it about the new church website Revelations in Context. We post the next week's lesson so people can study at home and it makes perfect sense to add that website as a study aid this year.

[Tacenda]

Speaking of...you might want to talk to your bulletin person if they announce SS lessons on it about the new church website Revelations in Context. We post the next week's lesson so people can study at home and it makes perfect sense to add that website as a study aid this year.

I will, it didn't dawn on me to do that when I'd read that you were going to have it put in your ward bulletin.

[Calm]

I will, it didn't dawn on me to do that when I'd read that you were going to have it put in your ward bulletin.

I wouldn't have suggested it except that you said your ward/stake is attempting to teach more about history. I know some wards are pretty set in stone on the way things are 'done'...mine is a relatively new one, combined out of two wards one of which has been here forever and the other relatively newer development plus we have a pretty relaxed and practical bishop that is great with people doing what they feel is appropriate for their calling so I can pretty much put anything in the bulletin that I like, like using colouring pictures off of lds.org for the front page to give kids something to do and using more obscure scriptures rather than the same ones over and over and throwing in a quote from a rabbi every now and then.

[Tacenda]

I wouldn't have suggested it except that you said your ward/stake is attempting to teach more about history. I know some wards are pretty set in stone on the way things are 'done'...mine is a relatively new one, combined out of two wards one of which has been here forever and the other relatively newer development plus we have a pretty relaxed and practical bishop that is great with people doing what they feel is appropriate for their calling so I can pretty much put anything in the bulletin that I like, like using colouring pictures off of lds.org for the front page to give kids something to do and using more obscure scriptures rather than the same ones over and over and throwing in a quote from a rabbi every now and then.

It was my sister's ward that had the meeting about the seerstone in a hat. I was quite impressed that this info was reaching the youth. I think Marlin Jensen might be behind it. My ward is very cool and I think would put it in the bulletin. The only problem is they don't list the SS lessons in the ward bulletin.

[canard78]

Alma, Nephi and the Nephite 12 visited Joseph Smith?

That's certainly new on me. Joseph doesn't appear to have made any reference anywhere about this. I would imagine Messers Cannon and Taylors memory has been a little fuddled.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Teaching out of the manual, like a good ol' mormon, I stumbled upon this statement in the #5 Primary manual about D&C and church history, this is what I found but am questioning the resourse and need further light & knowlage. Here ie the pasted referance: "What happened each year on 22 September? How was the angel Moroni preparing Joseph for the work he had been called to do? Explain that during these four years, Joseph also met with many other Nephite prophets, such as Nephi, Alma, Mormon, and the twelve disciples chosen by the Savior in America (see Church History in the Fulness of Times, p. 41)."

So in order to better "explain" I've been of a bit of a wild goose chase examining the referance and it almost reminds me of the crazy scripture chases that we use to laugh about on my mission that came from some of those anti mormon chick tracts we use to find @ ATM & bus stops.

My question is, where do I find a good resourse on what they taught Joseph? You'd think that these big time Mormon Prophets from the Gold Plates might have some interesting things to say. I would think if it's in the manual with a referance it's got to have some history or was this just a mention from Lucy from her history of the Prophet and that's all...

Hoping someone smarter than I can hook a broth'a up!

Thanks!

Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman and Church History. I know what you mean with the Chick pamphlets...Mike Chick with who I have written letters (pre-Internet) is filled hate for anyone who do not use KJV 1611 addition of the Bible. Odd that we do, but he hates Mormons, most than both. Joseph used to describe the Apostle Paul appearance and even the sound of his voice. I would imagine Joseph met with ever Prophet who witnessed the risen Christ, especially all those who had keys to bestow. Edited April 2, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee