Names Of The Degrees Of Glory

[swfarnsworth]

Ever since I finally memorized that the Terrestrial is the moon glory and the Telestial is the star glory (I got them mixed up a lot as a kid), I've thought that the two names should be switched. Here's why:

• "Telestial" is an invented word to describe the unnamed degree in 1 Cor. 15 created from a combination of the names of the other two degrees, so it would make sense to have it be the name of the degree in between the Celestial and Terrestrial. In the JST, Joseph could have simply inserted the word "Telestial" in between references to the other two (making the stars correspond to Terrestrial and the moon to Telestial) rather than adding it as an appendage.
  
• Though the earth will become a Terrestrial sphere during the millennium, it is presently a Telestial sphere. The word Terrestrial comes from the Latin word for earth, so it would make sense for the earth to be called a Telestial sphere when it is in between its present earthly state and the Celestial state it will be in after the Millennium.
  

I'm not suggesting that the names should actually be switched; rather, I'm asking if there is a particular reason (or reasons) I haven't thought of yet that the degrees have the names that they do.

As a side note, I remember being in primary sharing time lesson with a Plan of Salvation flow-chart. Though I did often get the names mixed up, I could still remember that the order was sun, moon, stars. The primary presidency member teaching the lesson had the degrees stacked in this descending order: sun, stars, moon. At the end of the lesson, another member of the presidency quietly pointed out her mistake, which had been bothering me for the duration of the lesson. When she switched the star and the moon pictures (I can't remember if the names were in the right places or not), she said "I guess you learn something every day!". This boosted my "I'm a smart little kid" ego.

[Kenngo1969]

Terrestrial is a good name for the middle degree, I think, because it will be most like this earth. Tierra (in Spanish) and Terra (in Latin) means "earth." Celestial is the degree above the earth in glory, and telestial is the degree below the earth in glory. My 1.7635820 cents.

[MormonMason]

Telestial is the habitation of those who will be saved but still cut off from the presence of God the Father and his Son. They are raised in the last resurrection, the resurrection of judgment.

Telos is Greek for last or end.

Looks like a fine fit to me where it is.

[swfarnsworth]

Telos is Greek for last or end.

Did Joseph Smith know this? If so, whoever told me that he made Telestial up out of Celestial and Terrestrial was mistaken.

[volgadon]

Did Joseph Smith know this?

I think that isn't a question which could be answered.

If so, whoever told me that he made Telestial up out of Celestial and Terrestrial was mistaken.

Indeed.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

It is obvious from the context of D&C 76 that he was given the name, by the LORD, of the Telestial Kingdom. He didn't just invent it.

[Nevo]

Did Joseph Smith know this? If so, whoever told me that he made Telestial up out of Celestial and Terrestrial was mistaken.

"Telestial" did not exist as a word until Joseph Smith introduced it. True, "telos" means "end" in Greek, but it means "end" in the sense of "fulfillment or completion of anything,...its consummation, issue, result, end" (Liddell-Scott). This would seem to better describe the highest level of the celestial kingdom rather than the telestial kingdom—those who inherit the telestial kingdom are fundamentally incomplete.

Also, I am not sure why we would expect to find a Greek basis for "telestial" when both "celestial" and "terrestrial" derive from Latin. I think it is quite possible that "telestial" was formed by combining "celestial" and "terrestrial."

[urroner]

Tele is a Greek root word and means "distant" or "far." For example, telephone means "sound from a distance." Television means "vision from a distance." Teletubbies means "entertaining television program meant to educate children in entertaining ways that promote insanity among adults, instantiating them from all reality and inducing a state of extreme catatonic stupor." See below for results of watching Teletubbies.

I would have posted a picture of Bill Hamblin, but his buddy Sandy would have inserted me into a video game and would have had me as the archenemy of all honest people and also Evangelists. and they would all seek to destroy me. My own children would have turned on me and my life would have become a true hell....well, a more truer hell. I would have been forced to move to Texas and root for the Dallas Cowboys.

[Flyonthewall]

I had always understood, and I cannot remember where I got it from, that the -el prefix was a superlative of sorts. Celestial was the highest, Telestial was the lowest.

I don't know what language it is from, or perhaps it is simply the way I used to keep the Terrestial and Telestial straight.

[MormonMason]

Did Joseph Smith know this? If so, whoever told me that he made Telestial up out of Celestial and Terrestrial was mistaken.

I do not know whether or not Joseph Smith knew this in 1832. It is possible. There were Greek-English lexicons available in many places. That said, Joseph Smith did not begin to study Greek until a later time. So, I do not know. Nonetheless, the term is fitting and derivative from the meaning inherent since the people who inherit the Telestial kingdom are the last to be redeemed at the time of the end, which is the completion of the redemptive work of Christ.

[MormonMason]

True, "telos" means "end" in Greek, but it means "end" in the sense of "fulfillment or completion of anything,...its consummation, issue, result, end" (Liddell-Scott). This would seem to better describe the highest level of the celestial kingdom rather than the telestial kingdom...

Watch out when using Liddell-Scott. It is outdated. If you must use it for meanings used in the New Testament, it is best to supplement with a newer reference that focuses on Koine, the dialect of the New Testament. That said, however, those who enter the Telestial do so at the consummation of the redemptive work of Christ for us in the resurrection.

As to it applying to the Celestial better than the Telestial, I don't see how considering that those exalted in the Celestial kingdom are not resurrected at the consummation of Christ's redemptive work for the inhabitants of the Earth. In addition, there is no end to their growth and progress, no consummation thereof.

Also, I am not sure why we would expect to find a Greek basis for "telestial" when both "celestial" and "terrestrial" derive from Latin.

It is true that Celestial and Terrestrial derive from Latin. They are, however, English words. On the other hand, many English words derive from Greek rather than Latin. English words involving derivatives from telos/teles derive from Greek rather than from Latin. I just don't see it an insurmountable problem.

Edited October 21, 2012 by MormonMason

[Nevo]

Watch out when using Liddell-Scott. It is outdated. If you must use it for meanings used in the New Testament, it is best to supplement with a newer reference that focuses on Koine, the dialect of the New Testament.

Fair enough. I looked up "telos" in BDAG and it defines the term as

1. a point of time marking the end of a duration, end, termination, cessation...

2. the last part of a process, close, conclusion, esp. of the last things, the final act in the cosmic drama

I concede that this definition seems a better fit for "telestial."

[Nathair/|\]

I don't know if it is at all relevant, but Tellus is an old name for the earth sometimes used in the western esoteric tradition.

[MormonMason]

I don't know if it is at all relevant, but Tellus is an old name for the earth sometimes used in the western esoteric tradition.

Not of the earth but of the Earth Mother Goddess. It also is Latin for land or territory. It also is the name of an Athenian citizen who was said to be among the happiest of men. It is of differing derivation.

Edited October 22, 2012 by MormonMason

[swfarnsworth]

It is obvious from the context of D&C 76 that he was given the name, by the LORD, of the Telestial Kingdom. He didn't just invent it.

It is possible for Joseph Smith to have invented words for the things the Lord was showing him without calling his prophetic calling into question.

Tele is a Greek root word and means "distant" or "far." For example, telephone means "sound from a distance." Television means "vision from a distance." Teletubbies means "entertaining television program meant to educate children in entertaining ways that promote insanity among adults, instantiating them from all reality and inducing a state of extreme catatonic stupor."

That makes the most sense of any suggestions made so far, though it's still strange that it would be a Greek root when the other two derive from Latin.

I had always understood, and I cannot remember where I got it from, that the -el prefix was a superlative of sorts. Celestial was the highest, Telestial was the lowest.

I don't know what language it is from, or perhaps it is simply the way I used to keep the Terrestial and Telestial straight.

I speak Latin and know a miniscule amount of Greek. I can read the Vulgate, but not the Greek NT.

"Terrestrial" derives from the Latin word "terrestrus". Without diagramming the morphemes of that word, it's an adjective meaning "earthly". Likewise, "Celestial" derives from the Latin "celestis" (sometimes spelled "caelestis"), which means "heavenly". "Telestial", however, does not resemble any Latin words I know. Where's MiserereNobis when you need him?

The superlative morpheme in Latin is -issim-. I'm glad that we don't call the highest degree the Celestissimal Kingdom. This would make missionary conversations rather awkward.

[swfarnsworth]

I just checked Wiktionary to verify Urronur's claim, and it gave the etymology as "From tel(o)- +‎ (cel)estial", with "telo-" being defined as a prefix meaning "end". It is not stated what sort of end this is, be it a completion, the endpoint of a line segment (where neither end is a start or a finish), or the end of a rope (where the end of the rope is always the end and never the beginning).

It didn't give a citation saying that this was Joseph's/the Lord's reasoning in picking that name.

Also, "telestial" and "satellite" are anagrams.

[MormonMason]

...That makes the most sense of any suggestions made so far, though it's still strange that it would be a Greek root when the other two derive from Latin.

English is like that. It has smatterings of vocabulary from a number of languages, including Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Arabic, French, and so forth. Telestial is an English word, just as Terrestrial and Celestial also are English words. They have as their roots other languages but they all are English words.

I speak Latin and know a miniscule amount of Greek. I can read the Vulgate, but not the Greek NT.

"Terrestrial" derives from the Latin word "terrestrus". Without diagramming the morphemes of that word, it's an adjective meaning "earthly". Likewise, "Celestial" derives from the Latin "celestis" (sometimes spelled "caelestis"), which means "heavenly". "Telestial", however, does not resemble any Latin words I know. Where's MiserereNobis when you need him?

The superlative morpheme in Latin is -issim-. I'm glad that we don't call the highest degree the Celestissimal Kingdom. This would make missionary conversations rather awkward.

You should learn to read the Greek New Testament. You will get a lot out of it.

The Greek underlying the English Celestial is epouranios. This is not the actual form of the word in the Greek text but the root.

Epouranios itself is a compound deriving from epi ("upon", "concerning", etc.) and ouranos ("heaven"). The Koine ending -ios/-ia/-ion is the rough equivalent to our English -ly in adjectives and adverbs and so forth.

We can see the same kind of construction in the second word. So, literally, we have "heavenly" and "earthly" in modern English of these texts.

You won't find teles/telos in Latin so far as I am aware. The closest in form is Latin tellus but has a different derivation than does Greek telos/teles.

[swfarnsworth]

You should learn to read the Greek New Testament. You will get a lot out of it.

...

You won't find teles/telos in Latin so far as I am aware. The closest in form is Latin tellus but has a different derivation than does Greek telos/teles.

Every two weeks I tell myself that I will have the free time to do that sort of thing (i.e., continue learning Greek) in two weeks, but within those two weeks, the next two weeks are filled. The best laid plans of mice and men...

If only there was an original Greek translation of the JST for us to analyze, but that would be a contradiction.

[MormonMason]

Every two weeks I tell myself that I will have the free time to do that sort of thing (i.e., continue learning Greek) in two weeks, but within those two weeks, the next two weeks are filled. The best laid plans of mice and men...

If only there was an original Greek translation of the JST for us to analyze, but that would be a contradiction.

If you allocate no less and no more than an hour a day, you can accomplish learning to at least read the Greek New Testament in somewhere between 52 days and 52 weeks. If you want to learn the advanced stuff, it will take longer. If you just want basic reading ability, the time I have given above would be sufficient if you use a book by John H. Dobson, entitled Learn New Testament Greek. It is the book I wish I had learned from when I learned. Would have been a helluva lot easier. Unfortunately, it wasn't written yet when I learned.