The Places You Will Go... Heaven And Hell And Their Impact On Crime

[Doctor Steuss]

I'm sure most are familiar with the image on COPS or some similar show where someone professes their salvation after being arrested for a suspected crime. It turns out there may be a correlation between one’s belief in forgiveness for transgressions and the likelihood to commit said transgressions.

The researchers found that the degree to which each country’s citizens believed more strongly in heaven than in hell predicted higher national crime rates. It seems that believing more strongly in the forgiveness of sins than in punishment in the after-life may help pave the way for further transgressions.

http://www.economist.../09/daily-chart

It appears that hellfire and damnation might be an effective tool at taking a bite out of crime. So, as part of my civic duty, I would just like to let you all know there's a lake of fire awaiting you if you change lanes without signaling.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm sure most are familiar with the image on COPS or some similar show where someone professes their salvation after being arrested for a suspected crime. It turns out there may be a correlation between one’s belief in forgiveness for transgressions and the likelihood to commit said transgressions.

http://www.economist.../09/daily-chart

It appears that hellfire and damnation might be an effective tool at taking a bite out of crime. So, as part of my civic duty, I would just like to let you all know there's a lake of fire awaiting you if you change lanes without signaling.

Just an Abiss...

[KevinG]

Well there is very little crime in secular countries like North Korea and Religious Governments like Saudi Arabia. I wonder what they have in common?

Hmmm...

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Well there is very little crime in secular countries like North Korea and Religious Governments like Saudi Arabia. I wonder what they have in common?

Hmmm...

I fear when dead we are just dead...hope I am wrong. I believe that if there is a true Church we are they, but more and more I think there is no God. Or he is a cruel being. If there is a lake of fire whom people suffer in forever...God is evil.

[KevinG]

I fear when dead we are just dead...hope I am wrong. I believe that if there is a true Church we are they, but more and more I think there is no God. Or he is a cruel being. If there is a lake of fire whom people suffer in forever...God is evil.

Don't lose hope Papa. Anyone who created a land of Georgia BBQ and peach preserves surely knows how to throw a good afterlife party!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Don't lose hope Papa. Anyone who created a land of Georgia BBQ and peach preserves surely knows how to throw a good afterlife party!

True...but I realized I am agnostic. I hope it is true and will defend the Church as they are a great people, but suffering is meaningless. If there is a God he is missing in action.

[KevinG]

True...but I realized I am agnostic. I hope it is true and will defend the Church as they are a great people, but suffering is meaningless. If there is a God he is missing in action.

I feel that way sometimes... but you have to remember our experience is mortal and full of flaws. God does not remove other's agency or weakness (physical illness included) even if the righteous suffer. Know He loves you and is aware of you. Some wounds we will have to wait for to be healed but in the interim faith helps us progress in the face of adversity.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I feel that way sometimes... but you have to remember our experience is mortal and full of flaws. God does not remove other's agency or weakness (physical illness included) even if the righteous suffer. Know He loves you and is aware of you. Some wounds we will have to wait for to be healed but in the interim faith helps us progress in the face of adversity.

I hope so...but for now I am resigning my calling to teach. I am also not going to my new Ward...I think doing so would be dishonest. If I am wrong I guess God will send me to hell...to stay on topic. But if he cannot understand, he is not God or worthy of worship.

[TAO]

Oh noes... I must say it though! Correlation is not causation! =D. Sorry, couldn't resist =p.

[cinepro]

There's a book coming out next year that tells the story of hundreds of murders committed in Austria in the 1700's.

Turns out, suicide was considered worse than murder by the church, so instead of committing suicide, people would murder someone else (usually a child), and then confess to the murder (thereby recieving forgiveness) and be put to death (thereby acheiving the intended result).

It's called "Suicide by Proxy". You can hear about it here:

http://www.thisameri...oles?act=0#play

So there are some really interesting ways in which religious belief can influence the actions (and crimes) of others.

[Tacenda]

I hope so...but for now I am resigning my calling to teach. I am also not going to my new Ward...I think doing so would be dishonest. If I am wrong I guess God will send me to hell...to stay on topic. But if he cannot understand, he is not God or worthy of worship.

Don't give up on God yet, Pa Pa. Wish you lived closer I'd love to help ya. I think having a ward family could be a great help to you and your family. Also, isn't your missionary soon going to be home? Just hold on through the night things will look better tomorrow.

[Tacenda]

True...but I realized I am agnostic. I hope it is true and will defend the Church as they are a great people, but suffering is meaningless. If there is a God he is missing in action.

See God through your family then. You are suffering but it's not meaningless to try to see it to the end for yourself and them.

[TAO]

I fear when dead we are just dead...hope I am wrong.

Papa, if we die and are just dead, where is there joy in life? If everything is temporary, and ultimately subject to decay, why is life delicious?

No, life must go on. Things must not decay. We must rise after death, to give life purpose. That I know with all my heart.

You must realize; you have a choice. You can believe everything ends at death. Or you can believe things continue. Which choice is worth it?

I believe that if there is a true Church we are they, but more and more I think there is no God.

Why so? Is it because you cannot prove him? But you can feel him. And that, to me, is the key thing that really matters; we can communicate with him.

Do you remember that? Do you remember talking with God, and feeling the Holy Spirit. Do you remember the soft peace of the Holy Ghost and the gentle flow of knowledge that it brings to your head. Do you remember your experiences with God, and his servants, but Heavenly, and Earthly.

Or he is a cruel being. If there is a lake of fire whom people suffer in forever...God is evil.

The Lake of Fire is rhetorical... look at the story of Alma the Younger, who suffered for persecuting the Church and leading many astray. That was the lake of fire. Mental Anguish... not because God is causing you pain... but because of what you did wrong... and your soul recognizes it and torments itself. You know how guilty you are. That is the lake of fire... mental anguish. Whether God punishes more, I know not, but the anguish is from the soul, not from a physical pain necessarily.

You must remember also though; yes, God allows punishment, but he also allows grace, and forgiveness, and mercy, and all of those wonderful thing which we value so much. That is truly a great thing.

Try and remember why you believe in God; and don't forget it, because that is what we all hold onto, when it gets down to it; our experiences.

Good luck,

-TAO

[TAO]

but suffering is meaningless

How do you know suffering is meaningless.

If gravity didn't exist, would we truly try to reach for the sky?

Trials and suffering teach us things we don't learn through other means. Even trials and suffering after death, too.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Don't give up on God yet, Pa Pa. Wish you lived closer I'd love to help ya. I think having a ward family could be a great help to you and your family. Also, isn't your missionary soon going to be home? Just hold on through the night things will look better tomorrow.

He will be home soon and I hope his beliefs sustain him...but mine no longer do. Again if this makes me worthy of hell, the so be it. I do not believe in a lake of fire! But if there is one and God would place us there for losing heart in this horrible world, then it is he who should be in it.

[Tacenda]

He will be home soon and I hope his beliefs sustain him...but mine no longer do. Again if this makes me worthy of hell, the so be it. I do not believe in a lake of fire! But if there is one and God would place us there for losing heart in this horrible world, then it is he who should be in it.

Do you mind me asking what has happened to you recently that you have this view now? I feel as if I'm speaking to someone else, say like to Kerry Shirts? You definitely at one time (I was there) had a testimony of the church. What could have changed so quickly? Besides having your dear mother be in her condition and you with your back problems?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Do you mind me asking what has happened to you recently that you have this view now? I feel as if I'm speaking to someone else, say like to Kerry Shirts? You definitely at one time (I was there) had a testimony of the church. What could have changed so quickly? Besides having your dear mother be in her condition and you with your back problems?

I still believe that if there is a Church this one is it...I will still defend it (or it's people) The things that are happening to my myself and especially my mother make me believe if there is a God, and that he cares nothing for anyone. If my children were suffering I would do all within my power to stop it...if he has all power he does nothing. It is sad that I have more compassion than him. Which by extension means there probably is no God.

[Doctor Steuss]

I fear when dead we are just dead...hope I am wrong. I believe that if there is a true Church we are they, but more and more I think there is no God. Or he is a cruel being. If there is a lake of fire whom people suffer in forever...God is evil.

Look for the diety within yourself my brother. It's in there, and it is good.

[Doctor Steuss]

There's a book coming out next year that tells the story of hundreds of murders committed in Austria in the 1700's.

Turns out, suicide was considered worse than murder by the church, so instead of committing suicide, people would murder someone else (usually a child), and then confess to the murder (thereby recieving forgiveness) and be put to death (thereby acheiving the intended result).

It's called "Suicide by Proxy". You can hear about it here:

http://www.thisameri...oles?act=0#play

So there are some really interesting ways in which religious belief can influence the actions (and crimes) of others.

Argh, another book to add to the wish-list.

BTW, I just finished When Prophecy Fails. Thank you very much for bringing it to my attention (many moons ago... I'm a slow reader these days).

[Calm]

If my children were suffering I would do all within my power to stop it...if he has all power he does nothing.

What if to prevent long term suffering, you had to allow for short term suffering? Would you refuse to allow your child to go through cancer treatment or surgery to repair injury.

When my daughter was first diagnosed with diabetes, she got to the point where she was screaming at us that she would rather die than have to have another shot (besides having a phobia of needles at the time, the insulin burns her as it enters her skin if given in a shot). Were we wrong to insist that she suffer so that she could become healthy again or should we have let her die as she sincerely wanted to at the time?

Do you believe that God should use his power to negate people's choices if they harm others either intentionally or unintentionally?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

What if to prevent long term suffering, you had to allow for short term suffering? Would you refuse to allow your child to go through cancer treatment or surgery to repair injury.

When my daughter was first diagnosed with diabetes, she got to the point where she was screaming at us that she would rather die than have to have another shot (besides having a phobia of needles at the time, the insulin burns her as it enters her skin if given in a shot). Were we wrong to insist that she suffer so that she could become healthy again or should we have let her die as she sincerely wanted to at the time?

Do you believe that God should use his power to negate people's choices if they harm others either intentionally or unintentionally?

I am not asking for others to feel as I do...I just have no use for an indifferent God. I surly cannot teach others how good he is right now.

[Tacenda]

I still believe that if there is a Church this one is it...I will still defend it (or it's people) The things that are happening to my myself and especially my mother make me believe if there is a God, and that he cares nothing for anyone. If my children were suffering I would do all within my power to stop it...if he has all power he does nothing. It is sad that I have more compassion than him. Which by extension means there probably is no God.

I actually have felt similar to you with what my mom went through. She couldn't speak at the end or tell us if she was suffering. But we knew she was. My dad would say all the time that they put dogs down when they suffer, why not humans? She had go through this for years. It'd have been better if she'd had something that would have taken her sooner. I thought on occasion that even Christ didn't have to suffer for years like she had done. And then I'd feel awful for even thinking such things. Hopefully this won't be the case with you mother.

Once your son gets here he'll be a big help, just like mine did who actually served in the same area as your sons mission. He helped me with questions about the church, and came up with some good answers.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I am not asking for others to feel as I do...I just have no use for an indifferent God. I surly cannot teach others how good he is right now.

I actually have felt similar to you with what my mom went through. She couldn't speak at the end or tell us if she was suffering. But we knew she was. My dad would say all the time that they put dogs down when they suffer, why not humans? She had go through this for years. It'd have been better if she'd had something that would have taken her sooner. I thought on occasion that even Christ didn't have to suffer for years like she had done. And then I'd feel awful for even thinking such things. Hopefully this won't be the case with you mother.

Once your son gets here he'll be a big help, just like mine did who actually served in the same area as your sons mission. He helped me with questions about the church, and came up with some good answers.

There still remains the question in the OP...will a righteous God burn people forever, or punish themFor eternally? Even we are better than that. It is sad that man can be more compassionate than God.

[Tacenda]

There still remains the question in the OP...will a righteous God burn people forever, or punish them eternally? Even we are better than that. It is sad that man can be more compassionate than God.

That's not the God I try to believe in. After my parents died, within months of the other. I read several books on NDE. One experience will stick with me forever. It was about a woman who had died and went to the other side and she noticed people were of different faiths, happily going on with their lives as they had left it on earth. Same religion, same family and friends etc. Just much better. She said that if you were a certain religion or faith you still had that faith. You were with your family, you didn't go to some unknown place with unknown people. Your faith stayed the same. Sorry I keep repeating that fact. So a very just God in this NDE. I wish I hadn't checked this book out of the library because I've forgotten the name of the book. But it's very convincing that we still move on and it gets better. No lake of fire etc.

Also, you're going to think this is strange. But here goes. I recently went to Sedona Arizona on vacation. They have all kinds of stores that are New Agey. My husband and friends went into a store that had Aura readings, I was tagging along in back at another store. And when I caught up to them they had had their auras read by placing their hands on a machine that reads auras or light. One of our friends aura color was red I believe and showed that he had alot of stress in his life etc. My husbands and the other gals I can't remember but when I did it, it showed pastel colors of greens and light blues. The woman told me, looked into my eyes and said that I had three people from the other side with me. She also said I would help people, alot of people through communicating. I thought well I'm a substitute teacher not a psychologist or counselor. But she told me very seriously these things. She hadn't told anyone else in our group something about people on the other side being with them.

I bought this little crystal angel to hold onto and meditate and feel of my parents. But have yet to do it. I'm a big skeptic and have even been skeptical about God since my faith crisis in the church. But I know I need to break out that angel and make a concerted effort to try and reach my parents and my God and even maybe my guardian angel.

Sorry so long, I just hope you get respite from everything you're going through. And knowing there is a beautiful life ahead for your mother and your family, it may help you get through this.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

That's not the God I try to believe in.

It is the God of every book of scripture.