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Interesting Article About The Proposed Mtc Building


sjdawg

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Is the building design of 9 story MTC a result of prophetic revelation? If not, the leadership of the LDS Church shouldn't be using their influence as leaders of the Church to try and get their way. When did it change from a secular matter to a religious matter?

http://www.heraldext...c523e1ff84.html

Ward members in attendance at the meeting said that Randall, in a tearful delivery, said the church's Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and First Presidency had carefully and prayerfully considered the issue of growth and development at the MTC and had decided that the 9-story building should be built.

According to church members in attendance, Randall then delivered what he said was an "invitation" to the congregation to "sustain" the leaders in their decision.

The shift to an ecclesiastical appeal in a formal church meeting -- including the invitation -- is in sharp contrast to Randall's earlier statements to numerous residents. Earlier, he said repeatedly that building height on the MTC campus was purely a secular matter and that people were free to act according to individual conscience without fear of repercussions on their church standing.

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Gotta love the "scare" quotes throughout both the article and the OP.

Nothing like letting us know where your biases lie in advance.

Also, as an avowed apostate and open-critic of the Church, you have zero credibility with which to lecture us on how Church leaders "should" weild their authority.

In answer to the question, however: when the civic planning and logistical studies were conducted and initial negotiations with the neighbors were carried out, it was a purely secular and administrative matter.

Once the leaders of the Church laid the matter at the Lord's feet (through prayer and supplication) it became a religious matter.

The difference isn't hard to grasp.

When the decision is made by men or committees, it is secular.

When the Lord's answer is petitioned, it is a religious one.

You are out of the thread.

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I would not be surprised if after the neighbourhood expressed its dissatisfaction with the plans, that additional inspiration was sought to see if this was still the proper course to take.

While it is unfortunate that the neighbourhood can't stay the same as they would like, BYU was there first and the reason why that neighbourhood is desirable is because of its nearness to BYU. Yes, BYU has grown bigger over time, but again, people generally moved there to be near BYU so they have to balance that with the fact that BYU and the associated MTC (which makes use of local talent for teaching languages, etc.) has chosen to continue to grow by growing up rather than moving the campus out to less occupied areas or even buying up neighbourhood land and kicking people out as I've seen happen with other universities. It is unfortunate that estimates of needed space were wrong when it was first built. I wonder if the neighbourhood would prefer the option of building lower which would require buying more land which would mean some people would have to move out? I don't remember seeing any discussion of that in the articles I have read on the subject.

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9 stories is tall? Heh.

I am disturbed at how the article presumes to talk for the people who decided to support the LDS Church in the matter after first opposing it. The implication is undue pressure was applied. It seems more like they were asked to reconsider and they decided it was right to do so.

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When did it change from a secular matter to a religious matter?

The two are inseparable just as religion and politics are inseparable. D&C 29:34-35 for example. To try and separate any of them skews one's vision of reality.

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The two are inseparable just as religion and politics are inseparable. D&C 29:34-35 for example. To try and separate any of them skews one's vision of reality.

Somewhere along the line it was represented that the two were seperate but that thought process has now been changed. Personally, I don't think a 9 Story building is that large but it isn't being build in my neighborhood. I'm not sure building construction is an appropriate topic for sacrament meeting.

he said repeatedly that building height on the MTC campus was purely a secular matter and that people were free to act according to individual conscience without fear of repercussions on their church standing.

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Is the building design of 9 story MTC a result of prophetic revelation? If not, the leadership of the LDS Church shouldn't be using their influence as leaders of the Church to try and get their way. When did it change from a secular matter to a religious matter?

http://www.heraldext...c523e1ff84.html

Ward members in attendance at the meeting said that Randall, in a tearful delivery, said the church's Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and First Presidency had carefully and prayerfully considered the issue of growth and development at the MTC and had decided that the 9-story building should be built.

According to church members in attendance, Randall then delivered what he said was an "invitation" to the congregation to "sustain" the leaders in their decision.

The shift to an ecclesiastical appeal in a formal church meeting -- including the invitation -- is in sharp contrast to Randall's earlier statements to numerous residents. Earlier, he said repeatedly that building height on the MTC campus was purely a secular matter and that people were free to act according to individual conscience without fear of repercussions on their church standing.

Lest we run out of things to find fault with.

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In March, several residents sent a letter to LDS Church President Thomas S. Monson advising him of promises made when the MTC was built. They were promised that no buildings would be taller than five stories, they said. In response to that, leaders advised Randall -- and he then conveyed to members -- that such concerns are of a secular nature, and the issues are for Provo city to discuss.

So, when they originally built the MTC, the Church promised the residents of the neighborhood that no buildings would be over five stories tall. Now they've changed their minds and want a nine-story building, and it's okay to break promises even though the neighborhood residents have made it clear they still don't want buildings over five stories.

If the Church doesn't keep its promises, how are people supposed to take seriously all the lessons and the temple recommend question about being honest in all your dealings? You're supposed to lead by example.

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And what do you say to Calmoriah's point that "building out" rather than "building up" might actually lead to more, rather than less, dissatisfaction among residents because it might displace more of them? Maybe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is "danged if it does, and danged if it don't" in this case.

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And what do you say to Calmoriah's point that "building out" rather than "building up" might actually lead to more, rather than less, dissatisfaction among residents because it might displace more of them? Maybe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is "danged if it does, and danged if it don't" in this case.

Because it's absolutely impossible for them to build in a different location, right? If the missionary program continues growing, they're going to have to build at another location eventually, anyway. They don't have much room left on the current property, so why not go forward and find another location now? They could build a five-storey building at the current location to tide them over.

Besides, how could the MTC displace current residents? As a private entity, can the Church claim eminent domain? Maybe it could offer local residents so much money to buy their homes that they could hardly refuse, but wouldn't it be cheaper to just build somewhere else?

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One of the great things about the MTC is that there are a number of teachers from the student community. Locating it where it is some distance from the campus would make it more difficult to accommodate the needs for the variety of teachers. Being across the street from the temple is another plus for transportation issues.

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So, when they originally built the MTC, the Church promised the residents of the neighborhood that no buildings would be over five stories tall. Now they've changed their minds and want a nine-story building, and it's okay to break promises even though the neighborhood residents have made it clear they still don't want buildings over five stories.

If the Church doesn't keep its promises, how are people supposed to take seriously all the lessons and the temple recommend question about being honest in all your dealings? You're supposed to lead by example.

If promises were made then they should be kept or an alternative mutually agreed solution should be negotiated.

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I agree. I would also like to know what evidence there are of those promises, being aware of too many times where one party to an arrangement hears something completely different than the other party.

My motto...everything in writing, preferably triplicate and notarized and definitely signed by both parties after reading at least twice through....

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If promises were made then they should be kept or an alternative mutually agreed solution should be negotiated.

+1

Exactly. Discuss the issue like adults, rather than merely expecting others to "fall in line" after you change your mind.

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Yes, whenever there's a question as to what actually happened, automatically assume the powerful wealthy institution is telling the truth and everybody else is not.

That is not what I said. It is possible there was a misunderstanding if it was a verbal agreement and the misunderstanding in my view is as likely to have occurred on the Church's side as the neighbourhood's....most likely both. That is why it is good to get this stuff in writing so that everyone is on the same page and not just thinks they are.
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Is the building design of 9 story MTC a result of prophetic revelation? If not, the leadership of the LDS Church shouldn't be using their influence as leaders of the Church to try and get their way. When did it change from a secular matter to a religious matter?

http://www.heraldext...c523e1ff84.html

Ward members in attendance at the meeting said that Randall, in a tearful delivery, said the church's Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and First Presidency had carefully and prayerfully considered the issue of growth and development at the MTC and had decided that the 9-story building should be built.

According to church members in attendance, Randall then delivered what he said was an "invitation" to the congregation to "sustain" the leaders in their decision.

The shift to an ecclesiastical appeal in a formal church meeting -- including the invitation -- is in sharp contrast to Randall's earlier statements to numerous residents. Earlier, he said repeatedly that building height on the MTC campus was purely a secular matter and that people were free to act according to individual conscience without fear of repercussions on their church standing.

As one who understands building permit issues more than most living...38 years in this business. Everyone is free to vote their conscience in zoning matters. In that case it is totally a "secular matter". Otherwise being the MTC it needs the support of members.
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Haven't read all the comments, ehading to dinner. here's what I posted on Facebook about it on Kerry Shirts post:

In the temple, I covenanted to live the law of sacrifice and the law of consecration. While I will still make reasonable attempts to encourage a change in decor or style, ultimately I should not become a stumbling block to the work of the Lord or his kingdom.

Further, being bound to a now economically and structurally obsolescent promise from 40 years ago is, in my view, unreasonable.

Finally, there is a little known revelatory vision that several BYU presidents and church leaders had decades ago that showed that BYU would one day extend in a triangle from it's current location to the mouth of the canyon. You will see the neighborhoods in between eventually be purchased, deeded over, and in a few cases perhaps obtained via eminent domain once a tipping point has been reached.

Let us, by the way, take into consideration the two reasons, closely tied, for opposing it.

1) Change/loss of clear view of a portion of mountain view.

2) Concern over loss of property value created by loss of said view.

We read stories about Esau losing his birthright over a bowl of stew, or of an apostle leaving the church vainly defending his wife who stole cream from a cow. Let's drop all this "mafia" crap from the comments in the article. Let's get to the heart of it. The leaders of the church prayerfully made a decision. You can bet they have gone back and asked again. These decisions in the twelve and first presidency have to be unanimous. And then you have members affected screaming about their rights, "It's my Mammon, it's MINE! You EVIL controlling corporation! You are just bullies!". For a view and a theoretical and unlikely loss in property value and minor change in view, they are tossing out their temple covenants.

There is a vast difference between taking reasonable steps to have your voice be heard, versus standing in outright opposition. If you want to view the church as a soulless entity or tool of Satan, sure, it's strong arming. If you actually live your covenants to the Lord for consecration and sacrifice, and believe them, then it is the only reasonable conclusion. I respect the gentleman who realized that and made the decision that he had done as much as he felt was reasonable up to the point where the leaders of the church said "We appreciate your opinion, but don't cross further." There is a man who lives what he believes.

And for the record, I speak also from experience of sorts. I had a Stake President, when I was 19 (just before my mission) who put his foot down on a rather large event I was in charge of (and created). He let the back and forth get to a certain point, then called me up and invited me to cease. He was firm, but not a jerk. He did remind me of my covenants. And he was right to do so. Looking back, I see how I was blessed in following his inspired counsel. I realize now I was indeed blinded by the thrill of the fight and faux feelings of righteous anger.

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Once again,another building will overshadow the temple. That said, once a large building is 5 stories tall, another 4 stories is not going to be much of a change.Once a big lump of a building is grown in an area,it might as well be a really big lump. Hey,make it in the form of a Ziggurat,with all those languages being taught inside there is already some semblance of Babel :diablo: .OK ,now I am just being MEAN!

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Once again,another building will overshadow the temple. That said, once a large building is 5 stories tall, another 4 stories is not going to be much of a change.Once a big lump of a building is grown in an area,it might as well be a really big lump. Hey,make it in the form of a Ziggurat,with all those languages being taught inside there is already some semblance of Babel :diablo: .OK ,now I am just being MEAN!

Odd we have 60 Story high rises in Atlanta. Utah has very small cites and buildings by comparrsion. By contrast the size seems like nothing.
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Yes, whenever there's a question as to what actually happened, automatically assume the powerful wealthy institution is telling the truth and everybody else is not.

Back off hoss nobody said that calmoriah was just stating the possibility and it is a distinct possibility. Just drag out the documents and see what was promised. There now you can pull in your claws.

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Odd we have 60 Story high rises in Atlanta. Utah has very small cites and buildings by comparrsion. By contrast the size seems like nothing.

Ah but we have mountains to view and that other four stories will cut off the bottom third of our view. Better to have a full view than that missionary work should be aided.

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Ah but we have mountains to view and that other four stories will cut off the bottom third of our view. Better to have a full view than that missionary work should be aided.

I have had two children there...those are big mountains. Unless you are standing on the ground right behind it trying "not" to see the mountains, they are hard not to see.
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I have had two children there...those are big mountains. Unless you are standing on the ground right behind it trying "not" to see the mountains, they are hard not to see.

That they are my friend but we wouldn't want to miss any of it now would we.

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That they are my friend but we wouldn't want to miss any of it now would we.

Good we can walk then. Since my son and his family are now here, I miss my trips to Utah.. One of the most beautiful places I have seen. And I have been a lot of places...reminds me of the Swiss Alps. My wife and I were sealed in Swiss Temple, I also spent two monthis in Southern Germany, near Eagles Nest.
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