Doctrinal? Wayward Children Restored In The Celestial Kingdom

[jana at jade house]

Often, a conversation between me and LDS leadership turns into a conversation about the stiffnecked folks in my family circle (to whom I wish people would talk directly) and how I should... because.... This time it was a kind stake rep who was arranging my release from the stake calling of teacher in Seminary. Apparently, he hasn't been paying attention because he did not know about son David's withdrawal from all things Godly almost a year ago) and he ran through all the same gamut of which I am growing quite weary of...but I remain polite: after all they have a duty.

Then this lovely man decided to give me comfort in his way. And that included the theory posited by I forget who that if a parent is faithful, the child will be restored to the family in the Celestial

kingdom.

Now, I have heard it before, and, I don't know where to find the specific text people use when they make this claim. I have a fundamental problem with the theory and as I blundered away in front of the Stake prep, I realized I had better pull up my socks and prepare better for the next time someone runs this across my bow. Because it sounds like wishful thinking to me.

Even the text we studied in Alma recently teaches that because the people Alma was teaching in chapters 9-12 were once in full possession of the truth and turned away, they were in greater jeopardy and would be judged far differently than the Lamanites, a people who had been raised with false traditions.

I also have a firm conviction based on any one of many scripture texts that teach, mercy and grace notwithstanding, who your parents are matters not one whit if you are unrepentant : see one third of our Perfect Parents' offspring.

But this brother was just as convinced that MY faithfulness will restore my children to a state of grace qualified for the Celestial Kingdom. Frankly, I don't want the burden. I have enough to do just perfecting myself, you know?

My faithfulness might keep them from Outer Darkness, and like the Prodigal Son's father, I will welcome them whole heartedly if they repent but once they have frittered away their inheritance, they don't get "all that the Father hath" times two.

Am I way out in left field yet again?

[Tacenda]

I believe it's the individuals responsiblity, and should not fall on the parent. I believe the parent can encourage a belief and even show where in the bible if they don't accept Christ and take on his name, that in the bible it says they may go to outer darkness, to put it nicely. This is the non lds christian view. The lds view is so much nicer and that they'll get the chance in the next life too. But in the bible it's not the parents who'll get their children there. Jesus is the only way, according to the bible. Actually being born again, is the only way, yeah I listen to alot of non lds christian sermons now. Sue me, lol.

[thesometimesaint]

Be at peace the Lord knows the intents of the heart, and will take Everything into account.

[Somebodyz]

If it were true, it would be like having a free pass. That doesn't sound right.

A loving parent in time (eternal time?) could touch a wayward childs heart and bring about change. Didn't Joseph Smith say he'd go to hell to bring Emma out, if need be? Perhaps those who make it, will do the same for those they love. We each get our own reward for our works, so can't see this being a pass go ..straight to the Celestral Kingdom ticket.

We have distant family member who is counting on her fathers works to make it. She's convinced his (he's dead) past calling, gives her a ticket to ride, straight to the top.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Somebodyz

[Calm]

Adam and Eve were faithful, loving parents who were sealed. One of their sons has been called perdition, etc. It really doesn't sound like he is going to end up in the CK.

I can see how a connection may still be in place with a sealing (JS said something like this to Helen Mar Kimball about what she could do for her family by being sealed to him but I don't know if the understanding of what he was teaching is completely known to us), but I don't see how it makes sense that means guarantee to the CK with what we teach of personal accountability and choice. Plus logically where would this end. One set of faithful parents ensure their kids get to the CK, upon which those children are able to bring up their own wayward kids and the next as well? Adam and Eve would guarantee the entire human race being passed into the CK. There would at the least be some limitations to make sense.

[Buzzard]

This is actually a profound doctrine, not understood well, but makes great HP group fodder. We are all responsible for our own sins, bottom line. but from spritual experiences in my family, as well as statements-none official-I have heard from leaders, parents who are righteous and sealed to their children will have claim on those children, and will be able to in some way improve those childrens standing in the eternities. To what exent, no one seems to know. And it's probably best that way, since I doubt God wants us to coast on our parents coattails.

I thing that thesometimesaint has it right. In the end, each of us will be happy with our reward, and the reward of our family members. For the present, just try to do your home teaching.

[Calm]

Jesus is the only way, according to the bible.

According to LDS thought as well. Even this concept requires the full repentance and acceptance of Christ that is required of all who want to see God. What it says is that they have a guaranteed seat in class as long as it takes for them to complete it with the belief that they will eventually make it through no matter how long it takes for them to 'get it', not that they get to skip the class altogether and get the certificate of achievement without doing anything.

The Bible is LDS scriptures, in case you had forgotten.

Edited June 26, 2012 by calmoriah

[John Ping Pong]

_{The bottom line is that this particular teaching is doctrinal, if by doctrinal you mean has it been mentioned over the pulpit in General Conference. Reference has been made to this concept a number of times in the past several years alone, quoting statements from earlier general authorities.}

_{To my knowledge, no attempt has been made to reason out why this should be the case, but it does occur to me that sealing families together in temples must serve some purpose. In other words, let's say that everything does boil down to what the individual does, and that there are four members of a family who individually manage to qualify for the celestial kingdom.}

_{In such a scenario, they all end up in the celestial kingdom. There is no sealing necessary in such a case.}

_{Which brings us back to the question of what purpose does temple sealing serve if not to keep people together who otherwise might not remain so.}

Edited June 26, 2012 by John Ping Pong

[BCSpace]

Wayward Children Born under the Covenant

The Prophet Joseph Smith

“When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother” (in History of the Church, 5:530).

President Brigham Young

“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang” (in Discourses of Brigham Young, 208).

First Presidency—Spencer W. Kimball, N. Eldon Tanner, Marion G. Romney

“In a day when the sanctity of the home is being invaded and where the care of children has been regarded lightly, we, by means of the family home evening manual, have endeavored to impress upon the parents the importance of developing a love in the home so that in the future, should those children thus taught stray away, they would eventually return again, lest they lose their place in the eternal family circle” ( Family Home Evening: Love Makes Our House a Home, 2).

Elder Boyd K. Packer

“It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons or daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should.

“It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled.

“‘The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. . . . Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God’ (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, p. 110).

“We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1992, 94–95; or Ensign, May 1992, 68 ).

Elder James E. Faust

“There are some great spiritual promises which may help faithful parents in this church. Children of eternal sealings may have visited upon them the divine promises made to their valiant forebears who nobly kept their covenants. Covenants remembered by parents will be remembered by God. The children may thus become the beneficiaries and inheritors of these great covenants and promises. This is because they are the children of the covenant” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1990, 43; or Ensign, Nov. 1990, 35 ).

http://institute.lds...ovenants-1c.asp

Hope this helps. I recommend further study though. For example:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared-and he never taught a more comforting doctrine-that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God” (Orson F. Whitney, Conference Report, April 1929, p. 110).

See also D&C 132:26. While specifically directed at the sealed couple, the children nevertheless are also sealed. I don't believe a wayward child in this scenario, who is eventually saved in whatever kingdom, gets off scott free.

There is also this to consider:

When the Church historians amalgamated the entries from the Joseph Smith Diary and the William Clayton Diary to create the version of this discourse that was published, the passage that the blessings conferred by the ordinance of sealing parents and children was unconditional. The wording of the published version suggests that the children of parents who receive the fulness of the priesthood can never fall. This previously unpublished, more complete account of the Prophet’s idea does contain a conditional. Clearly this a more reasonable and consistent doctrine: if it were not for such a conditional, the concept would contradict significant doctrines taught by Joseph Smith, not the least of which would be a contradiction of his article of faith that “men will be punished for their own sins.”The Words of Joseph Smith, p.241, 300

Edited June 26, 2012 by BCSpace

[jana at jade house]

When I say it feels like a burden to me, I mean that literally. I am not sealed to any of my children nor my fine devoted but confirmed athiest spouse...so that adds to my disconnect about a theory ( GA's say lots of things, not all of them are doctrine) MY good works assuring a wayward child entry into the CK. Of course, I really want them all with me. Even today packing his room for the University, I found my son's unopened oil vial- all ready to use. <sigh>

The leader that was speaking to me possibly didn't th8ink through that there is no promise from sealing covenant here...but even then, faith without works is dead...and no faith qualifies one for nothing.

[Calm]

_{In such a scenario, they all end up in the celestial kingdom. There is no sealing necessary in such a case.}

Unless a sealing is something besides reserving seats in the Kingdom.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I believe it's the individuals responsiblity, and should not fall on the parent. I believe the parent can encourage a belief and even show where in the bible if they don't accept Christ and take on his name, that in the bible it says they may go to outer darkness, to put it nicely. This is the non lds christian view. The lds view is so much nicer and that they'll get the chance in the next life too. But in the bible it's not the parents who'll get their children there. Jesus is the only way, according to the bible. Actually being born again, is the only way, yeah I listen to alot of non lds christian sermons now. Sue me, lol.

It is still Christ who will get them there...but they will still pay for their sins. But it is not a second chance, they are sealed to us, but they still have to chose. Also nothing wrong will listening to others sermons. Good is good, no matter the source.

[SamIam]

When I say it feels like a burden to me, I mean that literally. I am not sealed to any of my children nor my fine devoted but confirmed athiest spouse...so that adds to my disconnect about a theory ( GA's say lots of things, not all of them are doctrine) MY good works assuring a wayward child entry into the CK. Of course, I really want them all with me. Even today packing his room for the University, I found my son's unopened oil vial- all ready to use. <sigh>

The leader that was speaking to me possibly didn't th8ink through that there is no promise from sealing covenant here...but even then, faith without works is dead...and no faith qualifies one for nothing.

BCSPACE sent the same list as I would have as I made the same default perceptions that you were talking about a sealing situation. I think your specific case, while under the same big umbrella, that your stake leaders were intimating, looking at it from the exact place where you are might be profitable. Bottom line we do work out our own salvation, and while the debate over faith and works is a semantical one, both are required. As one without a covenant promise as you have noted, that is your obvious concern. Do all that you can to move forward in that process. Part of saving our children, so to speak, happens transparently as they observe us pursuing the goals that we find worthy of sacrificing our time, money, resources, tears and so on in persuit of attainment.

Over time, as you set an example, they will naturally feel those natural bonds of interest that are unique to familial relationships as they observe your efforts. If you live according to the principles of Christ as you grow more and more convinced of the sacred nature of your efforts, the changes in you and or the magnification of your more positive traits will be observed and in this way you wield the influence that is best capable of moving them in the correct way. Not by forceful mandate, or of paranoid obsession with failure, but with the peaceful trust in God that all that can be done will be done according to the constraints of agency - but your example is a powerful influence that works within the constraints of agency and teaches why it is valuable for them to consider your path for the light they see it brings to you.

So bottom line, for the moment, don't focus on saving them, save you by accepting Christ's direction and guidance, and without an unreal perception of the burden , you will find the best opportunity to move them forward, in their time, as well. They will freely make choices that are best made in that fashion. Watching my children...a child on the way to university is not near as thoughtful upon the things of eternity as one that has just become a new father or a new mother and so it is that as life proceeds you will be assisted by the very process of living. When they seek peace from the turmoil of living they may inquire of you how you found yours - and thus a meaningful doorway opens.

Edited June 26, 2012 by SamIam

[Garden Girl]

Hello JaJH...

I want to be encouraging to you... my situation is somewhat different than your children's in the fact that I was sealed to my parents/sister when I was 14... then went inactive about 20, and did not reactivate again until I was 55...

However, during that time I kept close to my faithful LDS parents as they went through their lives, living the gospel by example... always loving me though not codoning some of my choices. I saw their faith, in fact drew on that faith from time to time... and this kept me open to the Church (I also never lost my testimony though it waned).

So, I encourage you to continue to be the example to your family... it may take your son years before he has a change of heart and view... but he stands very little chance of ever having such a return if you are not there as his steadying example of love and faith, the way my parents were there for me as they lived the goapel. I think of how you must be feeling now and remember my dear mom and how broken hearted she was for me... but we did becme so very close again through the years. But I know the pain never really was gone completely. How I wished she would have lived to see me active again, in fact the proverbial TBM... so do not become weary... you don't know what the future holds. I know my mom must have worn out her knees in prayers on my behalf... and here I am today...

Be of good heart... GG

[JDave]

The only way this makes sense to me is with the understanding that all that are born on this earth at one time chose to follow Heavenly Father and His plan. We may change our mind completely while in this world, but we did see the wisdom of that path once. A parent's love may help a child see that wisdom, and the teaching of this doctrine seems to be that a couple who are sealed by the Holy Spirit will have that influence and the child will eventually yield to that loving influence.

[daz2]

Ultimately, the choice will be that of your spouse and children. They are children of God. I believe that, as His children, of divine heritage, they will one day likely embrace fully the gospel. God is a more patient and more loving God than many of us give Him credit for. Perhaps your husband and children are like the laborers who do not accept employment (or reemployment) in God's vineyard until the last hour, but all the blessings can be theirs. When Wilford Woodruff changed the law of adoption, so that people were no longer sealed to leaders of the church, but sealed to their own families and ancestors, some people were concerned because they suspected those family members would never accept the gospel.

Woodruff…spoke on the practice of temple marriage and indicated the change in policy regarding those being sealed as spouse to those who died without joining the Church. In doing so, Woodruff invoked a principle which may have catalyzed his change in perspective regarding adoptions. Reminiscent of Joseph Smith’s penchant for sacramentalized universalism and contemporary trends in liberal Protestantism, [n154] Woodruff stated plainly, “There will be very few, if any, who will not accept the Gospel.” Woodruff described those that suffered in Hell, and how they would “doubtless gladly embrace the Gospel, and in doing so be saved in the kingdom of God.” [n155] Woodruff thus broke with decades of logic which reasoned that one’s ancestors could not be relied upon to function as links in the chain of divine inheritance.

http://bycommonconsent.com/2012/03/29/mormon-temple-sealings/

While I do not believe everyone will be exalted, whether they want to be or not (which seems more like Satan's plan), I believe with Woodruff that essentially everyone has sufficient spark of divinity within that with patience and time and love and other help they will choose to embrace fully the gospel and receive all of its blessings. A universalism as a practical matter, but as a matter of agency. I may be wrong about that. But that is the way I choose to view everyone I know, inside and outside of our faith community.

[Calm]

The only way this makes sense to me is with the understanding that all that are born on this earth at one time chose to follow Heavenly Father and His plan. We may change our mind completely while in this world, but we did see the wisdom of that path once. A parent's love may help a child see that wisdom, and the teaching of this doctrine seems to be that a couple who are sealed by the Holy Spirit will have that influence and the child will eventually yield to that loving influence.

So what do we do with a story like Cain's?

[SamIam]

So what do we do with a story like Cain's?

I guess that's why he didn't die...gives us time to figure something out.

[Calm]

I guess that's why he didn't die...gives us time to figure something out.

I am chuckling, I am suppose to, right?

[CV75]

Am I way out in left field yet again?

No, but I resolve it by taking it a step further: If parents are faithful, they will have their children under their wing in the eternities, no matter what kingdom the wayward children choose to enter. They will be able to commune and associate with them and love them just as they do now, but there are some places some people just won't be able to enter.

Edited June 26, 2012 by CV75

[Calm]

Okay, that makes sense to me and is equivalent to God's relationship to all of his children in my belief.

Edited June 26, 2012 by calmoriah

[SamIam]

I am chuckling, I am suppose to, right?

As long as there is no snorting ... chuckling is good.

[theplains]

If parents are faithful, they will have their children under their wing in the eternities, no matter what kingdom the wayward children choose to enter. They will be able to commune and associate with them and love them just as they do now, but there are some places some people just won't be able to enter.

According to Doctrines of Salvation, "Little children who die, whose parents are not worthy of an exaltation, will be adopted in the

families of those who are worthy" (volume 2, page 56).

Regards,

Jim

[Calm]

But that is the opposite of what was being asked and so off topic....

[JDave]

So what do we do with a story like Cain's?

I don't know. I like CV75's resolution, though it doesn't quite go as far as allowing Cain to "tread a thorny path and return to his Father's house". The one thing I am sure of is that the agency of the child will not be abrogated. The whole issue is not well understood or well explained anywhere. So I will take what understanding I have now, and enjoy listening to others' ideas (like CV75's).