Church History And Faith Crisis Part Iv <----- Serious Conclusion

[DBMormon]

Well let's come full circle and then veer off to the left.

The other day I had a private conversation with someone. This person was very insightful and laid out for me the exact answer my mind needed to be settled with these issues. This person helped me to understand where I had erred. They helped me see why what I was doing was a problem and helped me draw some conclusions on what the Lord was looking for in me. For many of you this will likely not be your answer but it was mine. I share this person's words as a way to lead into my final Church History and Faith Crisis thread IV

] There are not problems as you characterize them and the elephants in the room are not the baby elephants you keep hoping are going to trumpet an answer. In the very back corner is a humongous, Massive bull elephant who is sitting on his side, resting from all of the bellowing he has been doing hoping to get the attention over the mass of baby elephants making all the racket. He is obscured from your view because all you keep seeing are the baby elephants covering him from view.

There is a work underfoot that you do not grasp yet. It seems to you to be a work to hide and protect the church. Completely, incorrect. We can flush these thoughts out further if we need to but when you think of Bruce R. McConkie's take on the 10 virgins and that they represent the members and that half will fall away, what do you think is going to separate the saints from one another. We do love each other and as a group are very tolerant when appropriate, but what is going to drive a wedge between the members to push them a part.

Faith is the big Elephant lying on its side resting. The 50 % that fall away are those who do not realize that theology is built upon a requirement of faith. Without it none can please God. One can never overcome the theological demands of faith by an appeal to empirical proof. They are at odds. The one destroy the other. Proof will only leave you weak and unable to stand when stand you must. The one leads to life eternal the other leaves one unable to call upon God when the time is ripe for destruction. The work that is underfoot is the sifting of the wheat from the dross.

In the coming days, I have no clue how long, but soon enough I am sure, the truths of the history of the church will save no lives. The only thing that will is in those, that live, breath, feel in their hearts and souls the faith that can stand this moment - the beginning onslaught against the church. It is the same ideological battle that pulled the third of heaven to follow Satan. It will escalate form here to becoming a physical battle and the world will be arrayed against us – It will take powerful faith, perhaps Enochian faith to turn the tides against those that would destroy the members of the church. You are only in the beginning stages of the battle of the war of words and ideals and you are already falling prey to the efforts. What will you do when destruction is between you and the powers of heaven to forestall.

Faith – so few understand it is a genuine power. Sometimes I think that members are hell-bent on avoiding, denying, and fleeing away from the opportunities to exercise faith – the power that holds worlds in their orbits and enables the creative efforts. We lip service it and then ignore it constantly. This day is a blessing to you. You are being tossed and torn and beaten and abused in the crucible of faith. The anxiety you feel is because you are slowly feeling the heat of the flames that will prepare some and destroy others.

You acknowledge the need for faith but it has not impressed upon your soul the power of what faith really is. Again I ask, what did you think it would look like when we were in the middle of the sifting. IT LOOKS LIKE WHAT YOU ARE SEEING. It is painful, until the faith provides the healing and there is no faith in questioning the motives of the church. They know exactly what is happening and they are stemming it as best they can within the boundaries of agency, and teaching correct principle.

As I read the person's comments the spirit touched me in a direct way. My mind became clear and understanding was given. In a answer I had never got before .... I got it. I didn't need answers to each issue, but rather I knew what the Lord expected of me in how I handle challenges.

Today at work I read a FARMS article Shattered Glass: The Traditions of Mormon Same-Sex Marriage Advocates Encounter Boyd K. Packer by: Gregory L. Smith

http://maxwellinstit...23&num=1&id=820

In it are the following quotes

] It is understandable—and even praiseworthy—that a group that purports to speak for believing members of the church, and wishes to persuade other members, would establish such a rule. But as I read what Compton and her fellow contributors wrote, I found it increasingly hard to regard this "rule" as anything more than a fig leaf to draw in the unwary, or as a sop to any conscience that might be unnerved by an attack on the church or its leaders. M4M "tolerates" such statements as Compton's insistence that "the Church definitely has a long, LONG way to go." 33 This strikes me as criticism. It certainly isn't praise, nor is her claim that the church is "trying to impose LDS moral standards on the rest of the community." 34 These are not isolated slips; the church's error, evil, or corruption is a recurrent theme that goes unmoderated or uncontested by Compton, who is praised for "standing up against the Church of LDS' lies about our GLBT friends, fellow citizens and fellow believers." 

Compton cautions new members that "we do not call into question the righteousness or membership standing of other posters."54 But even this protection is denied to apostles, as the above citations (and many others) demonstrate—including a long satire in which President Packer's "To Young Men Only" talk about masturbation was lampooned.55

One poster went so far as to associate President Packer with Matthew 18:6/Mark 9:42/Luke 17:2: "Bro Packer caused me considera[bl]e pain and self loathing because of [t]he philosophies mingle[d] with scripture. . . . Bro Packer . . . may just have a millstone waiting for him." The author concluded magnanimously, "But that will be God's decision." 56 More often than not, however, the posters at M4M do not feel the need to defer judgment to a later day or higher court, while the moderators apparently do not enforce their stated policy of avoiding personal attacks and refraining from criticism of the church or its leaders.

I too am a convert. Ever since joining the church in 2005, the one thing that has plagued my conscience and caused me to question my testimony is the church's stance on homosexuality and gay marriage. . . . I cannot imagine how painful it would feel to have my church tell me that my love for my husband was sinful. How could love ever be a sin? I am so glad to have found this site and to be able to read the thoughts of others who are also supportive of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. My sincerest hope is that one day, we can open the minds and hearts of those who are not, so that we may all be allowed to love without fear of persecution.59

If the above poster's husband fell in love with her next-door neighbor, she might understand how "love could ever be a sin"—or more accurately, how feelings of love could lead to a sinful act. We note too how quickly teaching that homosexual conduct is sinful becomes "persecution." And at least one member has not missed the implications of M4M's stance and arguments:

I honestly felt like I could never return to church, that I would strip off my garments and never wear them again. But I realize now, that without people like us, things will never change. We must continue to attend, continue to be strong and faithful members, so that one day, our opinions will be heard. . . . So that one day, one of us, or one of our family members, will be called as a prophet or an apostle, and one day, we can make things right.60

I wonder what M4M thinks the appropriate action for blacks in the pre-1978 church should have been. Should they have been encouraged by "progressive members" to ignore the ban and exercise the priesthood functions they had been denied? Should church members have published public denunciations of the prophets? Should the apostles of the 1970s have gotten the President Packer Treatment and been castigated as unchristian, immoral, worthy of damnation, guilty of causing suicides, and all the rest? Even if we grant the extraordinarily dubious contention that the church will one day receive a revelation permitting same-gender marriages and sexual acts, ought those so inclined to take matters into their own hands in the meantime, confident that God will one day justify them? If so, why have prophets at all? If not, then the moral standard—about which every apostle and prophet has been and remains in complete agreement—must be upheld and urged by all members.

God made us sexual, so if we act sexually guilt is useless—this is not a robust conclusion. It is so thin that one is tempted to wonder if this is really the best Affirmation could do. God also gave us mouths and speech, but "even so the tongue is a little member . . . [and] a fire, a world of iniquity . . . that . . . defileth the whole body" if it is unbridled (James 3:2, 5–6). It is hard to believe that even Affirmation truly believes that shame and guilt are useless "regardless of the reason"—surely those who, say, beat homosexuals ought to feel shame or guilt. (Not incidentally, those who feel no remorse or guilt are diagnosed as sociopaths. Would Affirmation also affirm that disorder?)

Compton has told the media, "It's not easy when you find yourself on the opposite side of the fence from the men you believe are prophets, seers and revelators. But I don't have to agree with somebody 100 percent in order to sustain them, to recognize their wisdom, to acknowledge them as leaders and assume their good intentions."82 It is difficult to see much recognition of wisdom or any assumption that President Packer meant well in M4M's posts. (Those who mean well are not usually damned with a millstone around their necks, for example.) There is also little attempt to acknowledge, much less promote, the leadership of the apostles on sexual matters. Materials hostile to the church's teachings on sexual morality are recommended, while church materials are not even mentioned. I wonder how sustained President Packer would feel were he to read what M4M produces under Compton's supervision.

Compton goes on to argue that "scriptures and church history are jam-packed [sic] with humans who make mistakes, disagree, debate and understand the gospel differently," which is presumably how she rationalizes her activities online and in the media. Yet, I think she will search in vain for any scriptural license to undermine the prophets' teachings on sexual morality or to criticize and malign God's representatives as she and those who follow her have done. But, as we will now see, careful attention to scriptural texts is not one of M4M's strengths.

Compton explains that "some of the things [President Packer] said, and the way he said them, were hurtful to GLBT Mormons and their friends and family." 93 Let us cheerfully grant that all ought to avoid every offense as best they can.94 Yet I wonder if Compton has considered that the attacks, ridicule, and caricature that M4M serves up (and enables) are at least as hurtful to her fellow citizens of the body of Christ, whose apostles are maligned and whose church is relentlessly criticized.

"If we're just going to keep fighting . . . how is that pleasing to God?" she asks in the press.95 Are we then to conclude that she thinks the behavior on M4M's website is "pleasing to God"? Or that it isn't fighting? We cannot control what others do, but Compton could do her part if she wants fighting to stop—she can simply cease her public disagreement with the prophets and stop lecturing those who choose to agree with them. I, for one, see no reason for prophets to be silent simply because their counsel makes Compton and a few others uncomfortable. Her plea requires that the prophets change their stance and cease to advise—or that she do so. One could be forgiven for mistakenly concluding that she had nothing to do with the fighting at all since she addresses the press as an aggrieved party and voice of conciliation: If only the fighting could stop! God doesn't like fighting! As innumerable mothers have pointed out to their own children, it takes two to quarrel.

How are unity and God's purposes achieved by telling the press that she "see a lot of people [in LDS congregations] really sitting back and thinking maybe we do need to have some open hearts and open minds"—with the clear implication that those who disagree with Compton or her agenda (including, but not limited to, the prophets) have closed minds and hearts?96 The Proposition 8 rhetoric caused "huge rifts in California congregations,"97 according to her. Should she consider attacks upon and misrepresentation of an apostle as somehow conducive to bridging such rifts?

Therefore—M4M's founders ought to either apologize and clean up their conduct online and in the media or be honest enough to concede that their behavior is not consistent with their purported aim to publicly oppose the church's political activities while refraining from criticism of the church and its leaders. It is not clear to me that such a goal is feasible; it is, however, abundantly clear that M4M has failed to achieve it. If they intend to continue as at present, they ought at least to have the decency to admit that they are criticizing the church and its leaders. The issue is simply one of integrity.

You'll have to read the paper to get the full gist but suffice it to say I saw the same methods I was using and justifying that the M4M group was using and justifying it the same way. And yet there I was disagreeing with M4M's methods. Why this article at this time? Obvious to me. IT woke me up further. I discovered one can feel so justified in their cause that they are oblivious to the way in which they go about it. I had crossed a line here. I knew it and so did someone way above my paygrade. I have pondered on this all night last night and all day today.

First I want to apologize to those who I have offended. I am sorry, truly sorry. I hope over the last 24-36 hours you already see a difference in the way I post.

Second – It has been made clear to me in a divine way why things are the way they are and that there is a purpose in that. For those who rallied next to me and felt they had someone in the same cause I must apologize to you too. I authored these threads in hope of helping you and me to find faith in the midst of what we see as problems in Church History or other issues. While I know how you feel I can no longer see things that way. If you might read the first quote above.... but slower and taking only love from it. You will find that while it would be nice if all church related things were smooth sailing.... what kind of faith would that require? If the Lord truly is proving us here... how hard would that be? Whether it is the ten virgins, the wheat and tares, the ten lepers, the prodigal son, what is the lesson? What is the underlying motive or thought?

Who's on the Lord's side who? I know many of you will say something to undermine what I am saying but know I get it and I hope you do as well. This isn't a matter of me giving in or giving up, it is about complete understanding was given and in that gift there is no room for anything else.

I have always had a spiritual testimony that continually fought against my reasoning. Not that I had reasoned the church untrue, and I think most of you could see that through most of my threads. But that I saw stretches needed on both sides of the argument to make it work. My mind could never be at ease. It was tension many a days. That is gone. I get it.

To each of you Choose faith........

Again my apologies to all here on both sides of this discussion as I have likely caused many on both sides to doubt me and I likely have made it harder for some to find faith....

Your friend in Christ

Edited June 21, 2012 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

by the way I have changed my screen name. It is an effort to begin anew. In case you doubt it is me you may look at past threads and notice the name change as well

Edited June 20, 2012 by DBMormon

[CV75]

I wish you every happiness in your new-found freedom!

[DBMormon]

_{Thank you.}

[Hamba Tuhan]

I wish you every happiness in your new-found freedom!

Ditto. John 8:32.

[Log]

I have been praying for this; I am glad you found what you needed. One more to go!

[DBMormon]

LOG - your stellar!!!! and yes Everyone loves LOG

[why me]

Glad to hear that you have found your answers to many of the questions that were troubling you.

[DBMormon]

Why me- & Everyone else

I didn't find answers to the questions and would still enjoy exploring those what I found was the peace not to make the questions the end all be all to my faith. There are questions about Jesus, Questions about creation, Questions about morality, Once you start down that slippery slope .... there's the old saying, If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything.

I see that now, not in a making excuses to find reason to believe, but instead tofind that thing that fits, that feels right, that is accompanied by the spirit and then not sweat the small stuff.

For those who say that is ignoring truth I will say this.

1.) If one picks apart the details of mormonism and decides they must leave, then that same critical eye will challenge them in other faiths where scripturally things are missing or not as they should be, One will pick apart the Savior until he no longer is, one will struggle to find his place in a world without having skepticism with every spiritual facet.

2.) Just as there are details that are frustrating to the minds eye, there are miracles and wonderful things that took place to allow for the restoration. Logically it has never been a shoe in. It is just as difficult to be convinced on evidence that the church is not true as it is to say it is a fraud. That is why the so many of those who are on the fence are on the fence and why so many that have left can't leave the church alone. Many of them are hoping and waiting for extra proof to come along to convince them it is true. Some are keeping contact just in case.

Let's say I was baptist. If I found enough problems in their history or theology to find cause to leave, I personally couldn't find value in hanging around baptist web sites ect....

The issue for almost 95% of us here is Mormonism intrigues us. We see the 100 possible reasons why some say it is not what it says it is. And then there are a 100 reasons why it is exactly what it says it is. Without it being clear cut, and nothing is, We have to understand that when we use reason and weigh the evidence, nothing in religion is clear cut (with the exception maybe of scientology and heaven's gate and even they find followers who believe). Without it being clear cut one has to lean on God for the answers. I had done that at multiple times in my life and I was always given bigger spiritual experiences then my faith deserved.

Spiritually I had been given answers at every turn pointing to the truthfulness of the church. I have not had that in question from my first thread here. And Now I simply see that with his divine answers on one side, the ability to find what the mind sees at incongruities in every faith, and the fact that there is more then enough reason and evidence to sustain faith; I choose to lean on the Lord and his answers to me up to this moment and stop nitpicking the details.

Faith is messy, it it wasn't it would be too easy to find the right path, to see God so clearly without having to ever do anything on one's own. One would be left knowing truth without ever growing faith...... that is not a recipe for becoming and inheriting all that God has.

Edited June 21, 2012 by DBMormon

[Verum]

Glad to see that even among the difficulty of reconciling the mind with heart, faith can fill the void for you. Hope it continues.

[ERayR]

Why me- & Everyone else

I didn't find answers to the questions and would still enjoy exploring those what I found was the peace not to make the questions the end all be all to my faith. There are questions about Jesus, Questions about creation, Questions about morality, Once you start down that slippery slope .... there's the old saying, If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything.

I see that now, not in a making excuses to find reason to believe, but instead tofind that thing that fits, that feels right, that is accompanied by the spirit and then not sweat the small stuff.

For those who say that is ignoring truth I will say this.

1.) If one picks apart the details of mormonism and decides they must leave, then that same critical eye will challenge them in other faiths where scripturally things are missing or not as they should be, One will pick apart the Savior until he no longer is, one will struggle to find his place in a world without having skepticism with every spiritual facet.

2.) Just as there are details that are frustrating to the minds eye, there are miracles and wonderful things that took place to allow for the restoration. Logically it has never been a shoe in. It is just as difficult to be convinced on evidence that the church is not true as it is to say it is a fraud. That is why the so many of those who are on the fence are on the fence and why so many that have left can't leave the church alone. Many of them are hoping and waiting for extra proof to come along to convince them it is true. Some are keeping contact just in case.

Let's say I was baptist. If I found enough problems in their history or theology to find cause to leave, I personally couldn't find value in hanging around baptist web sites ect....

The issue for almost 95% of us here is Mormonism intrigues us. We see the 100 possible reasons why some say it is not what it says it is. And then there are a 100 reasons why it is exactly what it says it is. Without it being clear cut, and nothing is, We have to understand that when we use reason and weigh the evidence, nothing in religion is clear cut (with the exception maybe of scientology and heaven's gate and even they find followers who believe). Without it being clear cut one has to lean on God for the answers. I had done that at multiple times in my life and I was always given bigger spiritual experiences then my faith deserved.

Spiritually I had been given answers at every turn pointing to the truthfulness of the church. I have not had that in question from my first thread here. And Now I simply see that with his divine answers on one side, the ability to find what the mind sees at incongruities in every faith, and the fact that there is more then enough reason and evidence to sustain faith; I choose to lean on the Lord and his answers to me up to this moment and stop nitpicking the details.

Faith is messy, it it wasn't it would be too easy to find the right path, to see God so clearly without having to ever do anything on one's own. One would be left knowing truth without ever growing faith...... that is not a recipe for becoming and inheriting all that God has.

Well said.

[MitoticSlime]

DBMormon, I'm glad you have found peace through faith. However, I have a few issues with some of your reasoning in your last post.

1.) If one picks apart the details of mormonism and decides they must leave, then that same critical eye will challenge them in other faiths where scripturally things are missing or not as they should be, One will pick apart the Savior until he no longer is, one will struggle to find his place in a world without having skepticism with every spiritual facet.

This is quite often true. Those who look critically at the mormon church often do apply the same reasoning to other forms of religion. To do otherwise would be to apply a double standard. And many of them do conclude that all religion suffers from the same problems and does not hold up to their standard of truth. However, it is not a given that all those who reject religion will never again find peace in their lives. Many atheists report being more fulfilled and having more joy without religion than they had with it. Some may say they are lying, or that they don't know what true happiness is, but in the end, we all have to live our own lives, and nobody can completely know the mind of another. At least nobody among us regular mortals.

2.) Just as there are details that are frustrating to the minds eye, there are miracles and wonderful things that took place to allow for the restoration. Logically it has never been a shoe in. It is just as difficult to be convinced on evidence that the church is not true as it is to say it is a fraud. That is why the so many of those who are on the fence are on the fence and why so many that have left can't leave the church alone. Many of them are hoping and waiting for extra proof to come along to convince them it is true. Some are keeping contact just in case.

Let's say I was baptist. If I found enough problems in their history or theology to find cause to leave, I personally couldn't find value in hanging around baptist web sites ect....

The issue for almost 95% of us here is Mormonism intrigues us. We see the 100 possible reasons why some say it is not what it says it is. And then there are a 100 reasons why it is exactly what it says it is. Without it being clear cut, and nothing is, We have to understand that when we use reason and weigh the evidence, nothing in religion is clear cut (with the exception maybe of scientology and heaven's gate and even they find followers who believe). Without it being clear cut one has to lean on God for the answers. I had done that at multiple times in my life and I was always given bigger spiritual experiences then my faith deserved.

It would be more accurate to say the evidence on both sides is equal to you. Obviously, some find the evidence they see to be overwhelmingly in favor of the truth claims of the church. And there are others who see the evidence as being overwhelmingly against it. Additionally, a big part of what constitutes most people's evidence one way or the other is their own personal spiritual experiences, which for the most part do not translate as evidence to others. At least not in the same way. They can become testimonies to others, but I don't know of anyone who will argue that the testimony of others is a valid substitute for your own witness of the spirit. On the whole, I think there are relatively few people who would agree that the evidence is equal on both sides.

But even if you're correct about that, I disagree with your assertion that it's the main reason for those who lose belief to stay engaged with the church in some way. Like it or not, Mormonism is much more than just its theology. It's our families, it's our community, it's a large part of our culture, and it gets into us. All that doesn't just go away with a change of beliefs. Those who leave the church have their own individual ways of dealing with its effect on them, but I think it's completely unrealistic to expect that they would be able to just quit whole hog and never think about the church again.

[DBMormon]

Thank you for your comment

This is quite often true. Those who look critically at the mormon church often do apply the same reasoning to other forms of religion. To do otherwise would be to apply a double standard. And many of them do conclude that all religion suffers from the same problems and does not hold up to their standard of truth. However, it is not a given that all those who reject religion will never again find peace in their lives. Many atheists report being more fulfilled and having more joy without religion than they had with it. Some may say they are lying, or that they don't know what true happiness is, but in the end, we all have to live our own lives, and nobody can completely know the mind of another. At least nobody among us regular mortals.

I didn't imply unhappiness, only a spirit of skepticism with everything that is not 100% evident. If one needs a perfect world to live in, an explanation for everything, then one will never settle into anything spiritual. It I believe explains why a large majority of people when they leave the church, they become atheist. They have developed a need for convincing proof and it can not be found in the religious world... hence faith

On the whole, I think there are relatively few people who would agree that the evidence is equal on both sides.

Not equal but completely lopsided either. I think most people on this board or those who can't leave mormonism alone see the posibility that they are wrong and the church is true. I think I for example always have seen the evidence as tipping the scale in favor of this being the Lord's living church. Others may see it the other way, but very few of us see it so clear cut in the negative or else we likely wouldn't be here unless we just flat out hated the church and wanted to fight against it..... and even in that I see Ex-Mormons who fight so hard because there is still an inkling of "It could still be the true church".

But even if you're correct about that, I disagree with your assertion that it's the main reason for those who lose belief to stay engaged with the church in some way. Like it or not, Mormonism is much more than just its theology. It's our families, it's our community, it's a large part of our culture, and it gets into us. All that doesn't just go away with a change of beliefs. Those who leave the church have their own individual ways of dealing with its effect on them, but I think it's completely unrealistic to expect that they would be able to just quit whole hog and never think about the church again

If a scroll was found tomorrow proven authentic that said in Mayan "Jacob, brother of Nephi, son of Lehi... they would be lining up. I could be wrong but the church forces us to split hairs on amounts of evidence on each side.

Please don't take my tone in any way, just speaking from the hip. not out to upset. Please continue to disagree if you see cause, as I love discussion

Good to hear from you Mitotic Slime

[MitoticSlime]

No worries, DB. I'm definitely not upset, just thought I'd give my two cents.

I didn't imply unhappiness, only a spirit of skepticism with everything that is not 100% evident. If one needs a perfect world to live in, an explanation for everything, then one will never settle into anything spiritual. It I believe explains why a large majority of people when they leave the church, they become atheist. They have developed a need for convincing proof and it can not be found in the religious world... hence faith

That is different from how I originally interpreted your comment, and it does make more sense.

[Craig Paxton]

Congratulations...I'm happy that you've been able to reach a comfortable conclusion with the issues that were plaguing you. Throughout the years I too was able to come to these periods of restful comfort by ignoring the issues that didn’t add up in my mind, placing them on a really large mental shelf and using faith to salve the wounds and bridge the abyss between skepticism and knowledge.

I’m sure that you will get many months, maybe even years, of peace by ignoring these issues or beating down your inherent BS meter…your innate human skepticism.

However…

While you may achieve some peace for a while…ignoring these issues or merely using faith will not resolve these matters nor make them disappear…as Thomas Edison once stated…. “For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." Faith can be used as the drug of choice to deaden the pain these problems create…but it cannot make the problems go away. The relief felt will only be short lived.

If these issues could be resolved they would be. If there was a good manner to explain away these difficulties and built in conflicts the church would do so. But oft times the very explanations used to explain away these difficulties is even more twisted and unbelievable than the very events that the church is attempting to explain away.

As a former Bishopric member (I was never a bishop) and high councilman, I completely sympathize with your plight. You are in a difficult predicament.

I really wish you all the best and do hope that exercising faith as a means to resolve these many issues works for you…it never did…at least not in any meaningful lasting manner…work for me.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Craig Paxton

[KevinG]

Shelving issues is not ignoring issues. The former assumes they will be picked up in the future with more experience and maturity.

Constantly picking at the rough edges of knowledge is a way of avoiding our own shortcomings and need to grow.

The real way to truth is to obey the knowledge we have to come closer to God - the author of truth. (D&C 121)

[DBMormon]

If these issues could be resolved they would be. If there was a good manner to explain away these difficulties and built in conflicts the church would do so. But oft times the very explanations used to explain away these difficulties is even more twisted and unbelievable than the very events that the church is attempting to explain away.

Paxton - a couple of questions for you, first - What do you know to be true?

[Craig Paxton]

Shelving issues is not ignoring issues. The former assumes they will be picked up in the future with more experience and maturity.

Constantly picking at the rough edges of knowledge is a way of avoiding our own shortcomings and need to grow.

The real way to truth is to obey the knowledge we have to come closer to God - the author of truth. (D&C 121)

And sometimes...the real way to truth...is to just accept that when things don't add up....they just don't add up...

[KevinG]

And sometimes...the real way to truth...is to just accept that when things don't add up....they just don't add up...

...and of course there is no shortage of people who will point fingers and mock at those who still believe in silly things like Mormonism.

[Craig Paxton]

Paxton - a couple of questions for you, first - What do you know to be true?

Are we talking about absolute empirical truth? There are many empirical truths I know absolutaly...

[DBMormon]

Within the realm of spirituality or religion - what do you know for sure?

[Craig Paxton]

...and of course there is no shortage of people who will point fingers and mock at those who still believe in silly things like Mormonism.

KevinG...no mocking or pointing fingers...just making a statement

[DBMormon]

For the record... I love the avatar pictures we are each allowed. Cinepro's yoda, paxtons old fashioned china mask, cwald's alien... they are great... makes me picture a face and I know I am likely way way off......

[KevinG]

KevinG...no mocking or pointing fingers...just making a statement

Then why react if it doesn't apply to you?

[Craig Paxton]

Within the realm of spirituality or religion - what do you know for sure?

I know this for sure...but freely acknowledge that I could be wrong...so I guess I'm admitting up front that I don't know anything for sure when it comes to spirituallity or religion...because religion lives in that squishy atmosphere between fact and fiction...but I guess its safe to say that religion (pick one) can't all be what they claim...

Edited June 21, 2012 by Craig Paxton