Joseph'S Use Of Seership And The Seer Stone Before The Bom

[DBMormon]

Before the Book of Mormon was revealed to young Joseph, he had already been given a seer stone and was known throughout the area as a scryer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying.

I am curious of what others think of the connection between this activity and the proceeding visits by an angel and reception of the plates.

1.) Was The Lord using this scrying to train a prophet? Are they interchangeably connected? Does Joseph see this as the case?

2.) If they are connected then are there other examples of prophets and apostles who have dabbled in this type of stuff? references and sources? Also why did a time come when church leaders changed direction and saw seer stones moving forward as a bad thing? I can see people thinking they're revelations are trumping those of the leadership but that reflects back to the individual.

3.) If not of God, do we see the God ok with this type of activity? Did he simply ask Joseph to stop or did he call him to repent of this?

4.) Joseph said every person has a right to a seer stone. Dec. 27, 1841: I met with the Twelve at Brother Joseph's. He conversed with us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make an evil use of it; he showed us his seer stone. (Brigham Young, Mill. Star 26:118)

Knowing that why do we not actively encourage this today? Do each of us and should we be actively searching for one? Would this be frowned upon if members begin using them? Is the wickedness referred to about the church as a whole or individuals?

6.) What are your general thoughts about things like this (Divining rods, seer stones, tarrot cards, ouija boards, crystal balls, hypnosis) Please deal with each of these separately as I am aware the church frowns very heavily on ouija boards and also hypnosis when used as entertainment!

Edited June 19, 2012 by reelmormon

[CA Steve]

I'd also be interested in opinions on whether the stone(s) had specific power(s) or was it just a focal point. If anyone believes the former then a second question would be did those powers 'change' when Joseph started using the stone for religious purposes?

[Log]

This thread cannot help but draw forth our modern hostility towards anything inconsistent with scientific naturalism. Our enemies have made issues of these things because presentism does the work for them in driving a wedge between Joseph and us.

Does any good come from this?

[Brant Gardner]

Since I have published on this topic, I obviously have opinions. However, I am really interested in the nature of the questions and responses and so I am holding off presenting my opinions so I can see how the thread develops. Please see my lack of posting (for a while) as interest, not disinterest (odd as that might seem).

[Blah]

I don't know if this offers much insight, but I've always found it a striking parallel to the seer stone...

A number of years ago I was in charge of the AV setup for church broadcasts in our stake center. One night there was a broadcast for (if memory serves) Institute and Seminary teachers. Our satellite dish had always been notoriously temperamental, and that night we had audio, but no video. I had set up a TV in the RS room, with the sound piped in through the speakers in the ceiling. Halfway through the meeting, I turned off the TV (which was only displaying a blank blue screen anyway) and removed it from the room. 5 minutes later, one person asked if I could set the TV back up. Without the TV, it seemed, the folks in the room were having trouble focusing. The information was still there (via audio), but without a visual focal point, no one seemed to be getting much out of it.

I suspect the seer stone may have served the same function. The same revelatory information may have been available either way, but the stone provided Joseph with a focal point. Later he received revelation without the stone or the Urim & Thumim.

[rameumptom]

Was there a reason that God would use an Israelite, raised as an Egyptian, to lead Israel out of Egypt? Perhaps it is because there were some skills required (like leadership skills) that a slave could not learn, but a prince of Egypt would learn.

Is there a reason that God chose to place Jesus in a manger, and not as Herod's offspring to rule Israel? Or to have him from Nazareth, when everyone back then knew nothing good could come from Nazareth?

The Firstborn was important to God and Israel, yet Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Jacob were technically not Firstborn children.

How about using an anti-Christian like Paul as a missionary to the Gentiles?

Doesn't it seem that God often uses individuals in controversial situations to accomplish his work?

[robuchan]

The peepstone and related issues are a top five issue for me in my strikes against Mormonism list. ie found using another peepstone borrowed from friend Sally Chase, the whole treasure hunting thing, the reports about how the treasure was found but sunk further in the ground, the very nature of using a peepstone to translate, the gold plates not being present during translation, the treasure seeking/Captain Kidd/Moroni connection, Oliver being encouraged to use his diving rod to translate, etc. All of it just comes across extremely sketchy.

[Jaybear]

This thread cannot help but draw forth our modern hostility towards anything inconsistent with scientific naturalism. Our enemies have made issues of these things because presentism does the work for them in driving a wedge between Joseph and us.

Does any good come from this?

Presentism? Modern hostility? I am curious what leads you to think that society today is more hostile than in Smith's time, to those who make money from their ability to tap into the supernatural. Glass looking got Smith into trouble with the law. Today its easy to locate and use the services of psychics, palm readers, tarot cards readers, astrologists, and water witches.

No, I don't think you can blame presentism for the discomfort you feel when discussing Smith's use of his seer stones to locate buried treasure.

[mapman]

Mark Ashurst-McGee's thesis A Pathway to Prophethood is very interesting and deals with some of your questions. You can read it online if you have access to Proquest. He argues that the seer stones and rods were part of his preparation for becoming a prophet.

[DBMormon]

The peepstone and related issues are a top five issue for me in my strikes against Mormonism list. ie found using another peepstone borrowed from friend Sally Chase, the whole treasure hunting thing, the reports about how the treasure was found but sunk further in the ground, the very nature of using a peepstone to translate, the gold plates not being present during translation, the treasure seeking/Captain Kidd/Moroni connection, Oliver being encouraged to use his diving rod to translate, etc. All of it just comes across extremely sketchy.

And yet the Divining Rod similar in concept to a seer stone is still used today. There are numerous people, honest hardworking normal people who use them today. I just spoke to a missionary in our area who used on his farm and swore by them. We don't know why but somethings work without any current explanation.

[DBMormon]

It certainly seems weird to us, but i agree that there is truth around us that we are completely unawre of it being there and how it works

[Brant Gardner]

the treasure seeking/Captain Kidd/Moroni connection,

This reference tells me that you have been very selective in your reading. I would recommend Ashurst-McGee, Mark. “Moroni as Angel and as Treasure Guardian.” FARMS Review 18, no. 1 (2006): 34-100 (written prior to the Ronald Huggins article you are referencing).

After the Huggins article Larry Morris responded: Morris, Larry E. “‘I Should Have an Eye Single to the Glory of God’: Joseph Smith’s Account of the Angel and the Plates.” FARMS Review 17, no. 1 (2005): 11-81.

Both Ashurst-McGee and Morris are excellent historians. As with many historical issues, the best advice is to keep reading history.

[JAHS]

I don't think each person really needs a seer stone in this life but the Doctrine and Covenants mentions that all who come in to the Celestial kingdom will receive a "white stone", perhaps similar in purpose to the seer stone Joseph Smith had.

D&C 130:10-11

10. Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11. And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

In the mean time I think we can get what we need in this life through prayer and personal revelation through the Holy Ghost.

[DBMormon]

Brant Gardner and any others who wish to chime in,

I don't want to derail my own thread but Brant, What do you make of the accounts of Joseph dealing with Moroni and receiving the plates that come from a third party source. Ex: Joseph Capron, Joseph Knight, Howe testimonies, Leman Copley, Willard Chase, ect....?

Do you in your mind simply strike this up to an effort to either ruin Jospeh's charachter or a bunch of heresay or do you think there are a lot of odd details and information that do not make it into any of the first hand accounts from Joseph's own words?

there are common odd threads woven into the multiple stories even given by two unrelated people or groups of people years apart.

- Toad like creatures riminding us where Hoffman got the idea

- the angel being covered in blood with his throat cut ear to ear

-

Edited June 19, 2012 by reelmormon

[Nathair/|\]

Before the Book of Mormon was revealed to young Joseph, he had already been given a seer stone and was known throughout the area as a scryer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying.

I am curious of what others think of the connection between this activity and the proceeding visits by an angel and reception of the plates.

1.) Was The Lord using this scrying to train a prophet? Are they interchangeably connected? Does Joseph see this as the case?

2.) If they are connected then are there other examples of prophets and apostles who have dabbled in this type of stuff? references and sources? Also why did a time come when church leaders changed direction and saw seer stones moving forward as a bad thing? I can see people thinking they're revelations are trumping those of the leadership but that reflects back to the individual.

3.) If not of God, do we see the God ok with this type of activity? Did he simply ask Joseph to stop or did he call him to repent of this?

4.) Joseph said every person has a right to a seer stone. Dec. 27, 1841: I met with the Twelve at Brother Joseph's. He conversed with us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make an evil use of it; he showed us his seer stone. (Brigham Young, Mill. Star 26:118)

Knowing that why do we not actively encourage this today? Do each of us and should we be actively searching for one? Would this be frowned upon if members begin using them? Is the wickedness referred to about the church as a whole or individuals?

6.) What are your general thoughts about things like this (Divining rods, seer stones, tarrot cards, ouija boards, crystal balls, hypnosis) Please deal with each of these separately as I am aware the church frowns very heavily on ouija boards and also hypnosis when used as entertainment!

I don't see the issue with most of these things. Joseph in Egypt divined using a cup (most likely scrying.) I don't recommend untrained individuals using Ouija boards. Most likely nothing will happen, but they can tap into your "shadow side" which can be dangerous for the unprepared. Tarot, I Ching, Rune stones and my preferred Ogham sticks simply facilitate access to ones intuition.

Yours under the divine oaks,

Nathair /|\

[robuchan]

This reference tells me that you have been very selective in your reading. I would recommend Ashurst-McGee, Mark. “Moroni as Angel and as Treasure Guardian.” FARMS Review 18, no. 1 (2006): 34-100 (written prior to the Ronald Huggins article you are referencing).

After the Huggins article Larry Morris responded: Morris, Larry E. “‘I Should Have an Eye Single to the Glory of God’: Joseph Smith’s Account of the Angel and the Plates.” FARMS Review 17, no. 1 (2005): 11-81.

Both Ashurst-McGee and Morris are excellent historians. As with many historical issues, the best advice is to keep reading history.

Yes, I've read the Ashurst-McGee article. It does not sway me from my perspective that the whole thing is extremely sketchy.

[Ron Beron]

Having studied ancient and modern shamanism to some degree it is evident from all resources that the shaman used items to focus his "powers" on his pronouncements. Joseph, not unlike his ancient counterparts, used the stone as means of drawing in the spirit. Why a stone? Culturally it was something he was used to again not unlike Joseph's divining cup in Genesis. Later, when he felt comfortable and more sophisticated in his abilities realized that his stone wasn't the source, but God Himself.

[cinepro]

We don't know why but somethings work without any current explanation.

Somethings don't work without any current explanation too.

[cinepro]

Our enemies have made issues of these things because presentism does the work for them in driving a wedge between Joseph and us.

It is not our enemies who have done this. The Church itself has moved away from many of the gifts given to our early leaders and members, such as the use of seer stones and speaking in tongues. It is not our enemies who are preventing President Monson from using a seer stone to receive revelation or new scriptures and publicly acknowledging his method.

The only "wedge" driven between Joseph and us is the gap created by our moving away from the parts of his history we are embarrassed by.

[cinepro]

I suspect the seer stone may have served the same function. The same revelatory information may have been available either way, but the stone provided Joseph with a focal point. Later he received revelation without the stone or the Urim & Thumim.

The difference between "scientific naturalism" and "scientific unnaturalism" is that if someone bought a TV that worked like a seer stone, they would ask for their money back.

[Jaybear]

Having studied ancient and modern shamanism to some degree it is evident from all resources that the shaman used items to focus his "powers" on his pronouncements. Joseph, not unlike his ancient counterparts, used the stone as means of drawing in the spirit. Why a stone? Culturally it was something he was used to again not unlike Joseph's divining cup in Genesis. Later, when he felt comfortable and more sophisticated in his abilities realized that his stone wasn't the source, but God Himself.

So what your are saying is that seer stone, which Smith thought he was using to find buried treasure and translate ancient writing, had as much magical powers as Dumbo's feather.

Never thought about it like that, but yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[zerinus]

Before the Book of Mormon was revealed to young Joseph, he had already been given a seer stone and was known throughout the area as a scryer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying.

I am curious of what others think of the connection between this activity and the proceeding visits by an angel and reception of the plates.

"Given" or "found," I am not sure. But there is no doubt that Joseph had a highly developed spirit, and from the pre-existence had enhanced spiritual powers which may have manifested itself in his being able to use certain gifts or ability to "see" spiritually which others might not have possessed. That neither means that he was acting as God's agent in doing so (on the one hand), or that he was doing something "wrong" by so acting (on the other).

1.) Was The Lord using this scrying to train a prophet? Are they interchangeably connected? Does Joseph see this as the case?

That may have been the case; or on the other hand, Joseph simply found an outlet for his spiritual gifts which was not in of itself anything seriously harmful (especially given his age and immaturity at that time).

2.) If they are connected then are there other examples of prophets and apostles who have dabbled in this type of stuff? references and sources?

Joseph's divining cup, Moses's miraculous rod, and the use of drawing lots (in the OT as well as in the NT) for obtaining or revealing the mind of God on some issues (especially when the choice is narrowed down to two options).

Also why did a time come when church leaders changed direction and saw seer stones moving forward as a bad thing? I can see people thinking they're revelations are trumping those of the leadership but that reflects back to the individual.

I am not aware that Church leaders have ever recommended church members to use seer stones.

3.) If not of God, do we see the God ok with this type of activity? Did he simply ask Joseph to stop or did he call him to repent of this?

We have not established that Joseph did anything seriously wrong that he needed to repent of (except for what he mentions in JS-H 1:28).

4.) Joseph said every person has a right to a seer stone. Dec. 27, 1841: I met with the Twelve at Brother Joseph's. He conversed with us in a familiar manner on a variety of subjects, and explained to us the Urim and Thummim which he found with the plates, called in the Book of Mormon the Interpreters. He said that every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make an evil use of it; he showed us his seer stone. (Brigham Young, Mill. Star 26:118)

Knowing that why do we not actively encourage this today? Do each of us and should we be actively searching for one? Would this be frowned upon if members begin using them? Is the wickedness referred to about the church as a whole or individuals?

You are relying on anecdotes. I am not aware of Church leaders ever recommending Church members to use seer stones.

6.) What are your general thoughts about things like this (Divining rods, seer stones, tarrot cards, ouija boards, crystal balls, hypnosis) Please deal with each of these separately as I am aware the church frowns very heavily on ouija boards and also hypnosis when used as entertainment!

For everything that is good and comes of God, Satan has invented a false and evil counterpart. Whereas the Bible tell us that God was okay with Joseph's divining cup, with Moses's miraculous rod, or with casting lots to determine the mind of God in certain situations; the same Bible also tells us that He is not okay with witchcraft, necromancy, soothsaying, and magic. Why do you think it is that some people can't distinguish between the two, and prefer to lump them together as though they were one and the same thing?

[Brant Gardner]

1.) Was The Lord using this scrying to train a prophet? Are they interchangeably connected? Does Joseph see this as the case?

I am convinced that there is an economy of effort in the way that the Lord typically works. There are certainly major miracles that we look to, but most of the time, the Lord simply influences in much more subtle ways. Personally, I think this is one of them. Scrying seems to be virtually universal among humans, with the object used varying. The folk tradition that Joseph was part of traced its roots to England, and that is where the stone as scrying object comes from. Others have used other objects, such as blood, a polished thumbnail, egg white suspended in a glass and the blade of a sword among others. In all cases, it was something that some people could do and others could not (if everyone could do it, it would be unremarkable and therefore not useful for "special" events).

As with most things in the past, the contemporary explanations for unusual phenomena are very different than the way we explain things today. I believe that scryers tapped into a way that the brain functions that some people access and others do not. The medium that trigger the vision was culturally dictated, but the experience was in the brain.

The Lord used what Joseph understood. I'm sure that the Lord understood things very differently, but simply used the available understanding.

2.) If they are connected then are there other examples of prophets and apostles who have dabbled in this type of stuff? references and sources?

Mosiah1 is the only other person who translated with stones (the Book of Mormon calls them interpreters). It is possible that it was also the way that Alma received the Information Captain Moroni requested of him. In modern times, Hyrum Page had carried a seerstone around his neck on a chain for years. It became controversial only when he used it to receive revelations for the church. That occasioned DC 28:11.

To my knowledge, Joseph never repudiated seeing in a seerstone, and eventually used a seerstone as a metaphor for revelation. He himself ceased to use one. In my opinion, it was after he learned that he was the instrument and not the stone (which is how it had been all along).

Also why did a time come when church leaders changed direction and saw seer stones moving forward as a bad thing?

The process of seeing seerstones in the context of a magic that should be avoided began in England and had adherents among the more educated in the early US. Eventually, that worldview has become dominant and we are uncomfortable with such things. Morton Smith actually sees the same process occurring with the way the Gospel writers portrayed some of Jesus's more magical-seeming healing actions (such as mixing spit in dirt and applying it to the eyes to cure blindness).

4.) Joseph said every person has a right to a seer stone.

By this time Joseph used the term as a metaphor for receiving revelation. Of course everyone has the right (responsbility!) to receive revelation for themselves and theirs.

6.) What are your general thoughts about things like this (Divining rods, seer stones, tarrot cards, ouija boards, crystal balls, hypnosis)

Hypnosis is a very different animal, as are tarot cards and ouja boards. Divining rods have some similarities. The difference with divining rods is that there are still some who use them, though they tend not to advertise it because it isn't accepted. Most of the wells in the Ozarks up the the 1940s have been found with divining rods

.

[Brant Gardner]

What do you make of the accounts of Joseph dealing with Moroni and receiving the plates that come from a third party source. Ex: Joseph Capron, Joseph Knight, Howe testimonies, Leman Copley, Willard Chase, ect....?

Using historical statements is more complex than is often assumed. In this case, there is an overarching concern that isn't taken into account, and that is that those who solicited the accounts were both hostile to Joseph and hostile to folk magic. They asked affidavits of people who were participants in the very folk magic that the solicitor clearly didn't approve. Therefore, they give some interesting responses.

In many cases, what happens is that they demonstrate their understanding of the kind of unusual activities that were to discredit Joseph, and applied them to Joseph. They likely knew of such practices first hand, and whether or not Joseph was there or not is the question. In most of the responses, I don't know if we can separate the report's intent from actual history. We see some of this tendency in reports that have nothing to do with Joseph, so the influence of the solicitor had a heavy impact on the nature of the account recorded (which, by the way, is a known process and problem in collecting statements).

there are common odd threads woven into the multiple stories even given by two unrelated people or groups of people years apart.

- Toad like creatures riminding us where Hoffman got the idea

- the angel being covered in blood with his throat cut ear to ear

I would be cautious about assuming that similarities mean that they were attached to Joseph. This was a lore that they knew and that common source is sufficient to supply the details that are applied to Joseph. At that time they took a lot less care for historical accuracy than we hope investigators do now. I have seen some statements made about one of Joseph's seerstones that appears to tell an authentic seerstone story, but attach it to Joseph even though there is no evidence that Joseph ever had a stone with that provenance.

[Scott Lloyd]

Hypnosis is a very different animal, as are tarot cards and ouja boards. Divining rods have some similarities. The difference with divining rods is that there are still some who use them, though they tend not to advertise it because it isn't accepted. Most of the wells in the Ozarks up the the 1940s have been found with divining rods

With a group of LDS scholars who had been speaking at a conference in Des Moines, I visited a portion of the Mormon Trail in Iowa during the Pioneer Sesquicentennial in 1996. We stopped at the home of a non-Mormon farmer who today owns the land on which the Mormon way-station of Mt. Pisgah was located. He was very eager to show us wagon ruts and the foundations of Mormon buildings and to demonstrate to us how he had found them with the aid of bent coat hangers he had shaped as divining rods.

In short, the tradition of divining and water witching is alive and well in the Midwest and, I'm sure, elsewhere in the country.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Scott Lloyd