When Does God Allow People To Be Deceived?

[Kerry A. Shirts]

So how do you personally reconcile that with passages (like Titus 1:2, and Hebrews 6:18) that say that God cannot lie?

Are you going to ask that of everyone who has a conversation with you? I'm not trying to be rude, but once again, why do you think there needs to be a reconciliation?

[Aliwe]

So how do you personally reconcile that with passages (like Titus 1:2, and Hebrews 6:18) that say that God cannot lie?

Earlier in this same thread I posted a verse from Ezekiel where God claims to deceive prophets. The prophet Jeremiah also complains, in Jer. 20:7, "O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me." In the Titus and Hebrews passages you mention, Paul is saying that God cannot go back on his promises pertaining to eternal life.

[bu11fr0g]

Some of these appear to be evil entities that are able to be in the presence of God?

[3DOP]

It appears to me that you ultimately put organizations above humans. I don't. Good to see you again after all this time too Rory.

Kerrrrrrry...God love you and keep you.

HUMAN organizations...

Let's put this on a very natural, understandable level that removes the mystical, the spiritual, and faith. In order to avoid deception, humans have learned that by organizing into groups that it is less difficult to be deceived regarding questions of criminal justice. Am I anti-human or pro-organization because I believe that although fallible, an accurate result is more likely when one is judged by a jury of twelve organized humans than by one human, brilliant though he or she may be?

I can't see any necessary antagonism between organizations and humans. We are social beings by nature, and it would seem odd to me if God revealed and maintained His greatest truths to us apart from that context. My problem with your philopsophy is that you seem to be proposing an antagonism between humans and organizations of humans. In keeping with your post from 2004, which I asked you to reevaluate at that time, you seem to continue to favor isolated humans with dismissal of humans in company with one another, at least in the spritual realm.

I freely and happily admit that I submit my judgment in religious matters to a "jury" of beloved and trusted peers, the Catholic Church of all time, who I believe has been ordained by God to help keep an active and racing mind from becoming unreasonable. I truly don't think you and I are terribly different in our speculative tendencies. The difference is that I distrust my imagination. My own ideas to which I become greatly attached, sometimes run beyond my ability for dispassionate and impartial judgment. I don't mind if you don't trust as I do, the "organization" to which you are affiliated. But I hate to see anyone have much confidence in themselves individually in isolation from any respected pluralistic authority (an organization of fellow humans).

Respectfully Yours,

3DOP

Edited June 25, 2012 by 3DOP

[Calm]

I've always gotten the impression that Kerry doesn't trust himself all that much either...at least not as some final product, that is why he is constantly studying, trying to find out if he is right about stuff or not, always intent on upgrading his knowledge.

He has been in my experience probably close to being the man most comfortable with saying that he could be or is wrong....but that may be a commentary on the men in my life, lol.

Edited June 25, 2012 by calmoriah

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I've always gotten the impression that Kerry doesn't trust himself all that much either...at least not as some final product, that is why he is constantly studying, trying to find out if he is right about stuff or not, always intent on upgrading his knowledge.

He has been in my experience probably close to being the man most comfortable with saying that he could be or is wrong....but that may be a commentary on the men in my life, lol.

Ohmigosh Cal! You understand me better than I do!

[Questing]

Scripture contradicts itself all over the loving place.......what's such a surprise about that? It's written by men with fallible minds. When God speaks to them, it is STILL written by men and women with fallible minds and a limited perception of reality. EVERYTHING is interpretation from a limited cultural view, therefore, scripture does contradict itself.........

I've been told by evangelicals that scripture (the Bible) is more than 99% correct as written and translated, has no contradictions, and was divinely inspired, and therefore is the objective basis by which all else must be judged.

Why not allow that god may have revealed, after much prayer and fasting, that a family should leave to the lds church and go to another church. perhaps that's just what he wanted them to do.

Most Christians would say this was the true Holy Spirit speaking to them, and bringing them back into the fold. I've been told that because the Bible is correct and LDS scripture contradicts it, testimonies leading people to the LDS church are definitely from evil spirits.

John 4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Why do you think all the scriptural contradictions have to be worked out in order for them to be true or accurate?

I thought scripture was divinely inspired. How is one to make sense of anything if there are contradictions and no scripture can be taken as accurate?

[Calm]

I thought scripture was divinely inspired. How is one to make sense of anything if there are contradictions and no scripture can be taken as accurate?

Through the Spirit talking directly to you just as it talked to those who first wrote the scriptures but who couldn't convey perfectly what the Spirit communicated to them simply through words (language being a less than precise instrument).

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I've been told by evangelicals that scripture (the Bible) is more than 99% correct as written and translated, has no contradictions, and was divinely inspired, and therefore is the objective basis by which all else must be judged.

Most Christians would say this was the true Holy Spirit speaking to them, and bringing them back into the fold. I've been told that because the Bible is correct and LDS scripture contradicts it, testimonies leading people to the LDS church are definitely from evil spirits.

John 4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I thought scripture was divinely inspired. How is one to make sense of anything if there are contradictions and no scripture can be taken as accurate?

And the reason the Evangelicals teach such silliness is because they have a vested interest in maintaining their incomes from gullible people who do not study the history, the manuscript evidence nor the Biblical scholarship which fundamentally is opposite of the Evangelical stance.

[mfbukowski]

And the reason the Evangelicals teach such silliness is because they have a vested interest in maintaining their incomes from gullible people who do not study the history, the manuscript evidence nor the Biblical scholarship which fundamentally is opposite of the Evangelical stance.

Now that you are back, I would like to see you discuss such things with Rob Bowman, our new favorite Evangelical poster.

Just as long as I get the popcorn concession.

[Questing]

And the reason the Evangelicals teach such silliness is because they have a vested interest in maintaining their incomes from gullible people who do not study the history, the manuscript evidence nor the Biblical scholarship which fundamentally is opposite of the Evangelical stance.

I don't believe they are all in positions where their income depends church monies, nor does it seem reasonable to assume none are well educated. In fact, those I refer to were obviously very well versed in scripture and history.

I've noticed the cavalier attitude to the scripture in this thread. One would almost think it had no value. Troubling statements here from LDS people. Their writings were as disturbing for their certainty to the point of arrogance and rudeness.

[HiJolly]

I don't believe they are all in positions where their income depends church monies,

Right. Kerry was generalizing. Would you think 50% or more of them depend on money from their churches? Or?

nor does it seem reasonable to assume none are well educated. In fact, those I refer to were obviously very well versed in scripture and history.

Sure. I don't take Bart Ehrman as any kind of hero, but I do respect him for his ability to communicate clearly and to be honest about his experiences in attending fundamentalist(ie, literalistic) evangelical seminary. Training to be a preacher/minister.

He said (roughly) that many students deliberately *ignored* what the teachers were saying about the Bible (Moses didn't literally write the first five books of the OT, for ex.) not because the teachers didn't have good evidence, but because they simply didn't want to hear it.

Another big chunk of students listened and lost their faith in the Bible and some left the seminary, and others continued though they didn't really believe Christianity any more. A much smaller portion listened and experienced a faith transition from a literalistic viewpoint to a more contextualized, nuanced faith that allowed for understanding the Bible in a more metaphorical or symbolic way.

I've noticed the cavalier attitude to the scripture in this thread. One would almost think it had no value. Troubling statements here from LDS people. Their writings were as disturbing for their certainty to the point of arrogance and rudeness.

It may seem 'cavalier'. I think it's safe to say that probably 80% of the people on this board have done their research, and have had to transition their faith in the Bible from one of blind faith, to one of informed, faithful even hopeful ambiguity.

We love the Holy Spirit that comes to us (or is amplified in us) as we read the Bible. But we know the "big picture" is very different than what our simple faith used to be, before we really studied it. God is still real, He still works through prophets, He (as Jesus) taught in parables, and so can His prophets.

BTW, a huge majority of Mormons also read the Bible very literally, FWIW. We're a bit odd, on this site.

HiJolly

Edited June 26, 2012 by HiJolly

[HiJolly]

BTW, in regard to the OP -- God allows us all to be deceived, anytime, anyplace. His prophets, too. It's our right.

HiJolly

[Calm]

HJ,

[Questing]

Right. Kerry was generalizing. Would you think 50% or more of them depend on money from their churches? Or?

I don't really know.

Another big chunk of students listened and lost their faith in the Bible and some left the seminary' date=' and others continued though they didn't really believe Christianity any more. A much smaller portion listened and experienced a faith transition from a literalistic viewpoint to a more contextualized, nuanced faith that allowed for understanding the Bible in a more metaphorical or symbolic way.[/quote']That's ironic because some of the evangelical ex-Mormons in the bunch I've had exchanges with say they moved away from Mormonism to Christianity because they had finally been able to read the Bible "contextually", whereas Mormons just take it in bits and filter it through the lens of Mormon belief.

BTW, in regard to the OP -- God allows us all to be deceived, anytime, anyplace. His prophets, too. It's our right.

Allows definitely sounds right to me. That God would deceive doesn't.

BTW, It was an oversight on my part that I made it sound as if I meant people here are arrogant. I wouldn't know. I just got here. When I said "their" I meant the Christians write as if the Bible is the end all and be all, and all the puzzle pieces fit perfectly to make one clear picture.

[boblloyd91]

My problem with this is what about people who are sincerely praying for truth and deliverance from their sins and shortly thereafter have the missionaries knock on their door? (I have seen this happen several times). Would God then be giving peoplem asking for bread a stone? Or a fish a serpent?

[boblloyd91]

Dang it, I've forgotten how to post! Anyway Questing mentioned that some evangelicals believe people who receive a testimony about the church and the BoM are deceived by Satan, and I was arguing that often time people seem to be prepared well before the missionaries show up. Does God give Satan an unfair advantage?