When Does God Allow People To Be Deceived?

[SamIam]

So Balaam and Laban were sons of perdition?

And the prophet pictured in Ezekiel 14 would be an sop too?

A son of perdition is a very specific judgment for a very specific sin or sins. I do not know if any of these men qualify because that is not revealed in these verses or others like them that one might extrapolate from. All I can tell you is that they received a judgement predicated upon their own judgements which is a pattern that is stated and observed multiple places in scripture. Beyond that I do not know.

[inquiringmind]

A son of perdition is a very specific judgment for a very specific sin or sins. I do not know if any of these men qualify because that is not revealed in these verses or others like them that one might extrapolate from. All I can tell you is that they received a judgement predicated upon their own judgements which is a pattern that is stated and observed multiple places in scripture. Beyond that I do not know.

Thank you.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Someone earlier asked concerning Ether 3:12 . The verse before it is the question that Christ asks all who would enter his presence. “Believest thou the words I shall speak” If you answer that question according to the pattern you outline above you fail. The Brother of Jared answers in the affirmative Yea Lord, for thou are a God of Truth and canst not lie”. The brother of Jared has just affirmed that I know you, I have studied I have prayed until the point came that I have had conversations with you. After many conversations and continued study in the spirit the point comes that he can say I know of your character, attributes and perfections and they are such that you my Lord could never lie to me and I know it. I don’t know how you are going to get around the simplicity of these observations but I am sure it will become painfully obvious at some point…

I don't have to nor desire to get around anything......they are someone else's third hand account interpreted according to what they thought occurred. Just because God spoke to Mahonri doesn't mean he will say the same thing to everyone else. God tells someone YOU...... hey you there pal, DO NOT.....I repeat do NOT KILL. No explanation, no whimsy, no excuse, just a very simple directive......and then God turns right around and says kill em all, and don't be satisfied with just the men, women, children, and the unborn fetuses......salt the earth and kill all plants, animals, and every living thing.......The Holy Ghost is NOT a unifier of thought.....man look around! Do you see all of mankind, let alone all of Mormons in a unification of thought, belief, practice, etc.? You'd think after 200 years perhaps there could be some sort of progress on that front wouldn't you? I am simply observing is all...... no need to get anxious........ I have learned to simply observe and "see" what reality here and now presents.........

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Samlam noted:

You have just tossed out stricture 4 of Lecture 3 of the Lectures on Faith.

Kerry says:

So what? The brethren tossed it out of the scriptures long before I just did........ it is just Joseph Smith's explanation (interpretation) of faith and events and things as he supposed........ it isn't scripture, it's pure interpretation......... every man is allowed to observe, think, and interpret for himself........ I am not beholden to what Joseph Smith thought anymore than I am my ex wife......... It's great reading and causes me to ponder many things.......but I am in no wise forced to accept his interpretation as infallible truth.

[SamIam]

I don't have to nor desire to get around anything......they are someone else's third hand account interpreted according to what they thought occurred. Just because God spoke to Mahonri doesn't mean he will say the same thing to everyone else. God tells someone YOU...... hey you there pal, DO NOT.....I repeat do NOT KILL. No explanation, no whimsy, no excuse, just a very simple directive......and then God turns right around and says kill em all, and don't be satisfied with just the men, women, children, and the unborn fetuses......salt the earth and kill all plants, animals, and every living thing.......The Holy Ghost is NOT a unifier of thought.....man look around! Do you see all of mankind, let alone all of Mormons in a unification of thought, belief, practice, etc.? You'd think after 200 years perhaps there could be some sort of progress on that front wouldn't you? I am simply observing is all...... no need to get anxious........ I have learned to simply observe and "see" what reality here and now presents.........

You just make me sad. Somehow I just figured you were potentially more reasoned than this and here you reveal the core of your perspective is precisely that - your perspective.

I have never in my life thought to quote a Styx song in a religious conversation but my expectations of you as a man grounded in the faith, albeit with some extreme interests, has been shattered.

Every night I say a prayer in the hope that there's a heaven

And every day I'm more confused as the saints turn into sinners

All the heroes and legends I knew as a child have fallen to idols of clay

And I feel this empty place inside so afraid that I've lost my faith

(Show me the Way - Styx)

Fortunately it is only my faith in your commitment. Alas some dreams die hard.

I must go and rest and try to recover - I think I hear Craig Paxton laughing in the back ground.

[inquiringmind]

Kerry says:

So what? The brethren tossed it out of the scriptures long before I just did........ it is just Joseph Smith's explanation (interpretation) of faith and events and things as he supposed........ it isn't scripture, it's pure interpretation......... every man is allowed to observe, think, and interpret for himself........ I am not beholden to what Joseph Smith thought anymore than I am my ex wife......... It's great reading and causes me to ponder many things.......but I am in no wise forced to accept his interpretation as infallible truth.

I can see how you might say that about "Lectures on Faith," but it seems to me (from what you've said on this thread) that you feel exactly the same way about the New Testament, the BOM, and the Doctrine and Covenants.

I take it you don't believe any of those sections of D&C that are headed "a revelation received by the prophet Joseph Smith," wherein Christ is quoted speaking in the first person, really are recordings of Christ's words (as they were spoken by Christ, and heard by Joseph Smith less than 200 years ago)?

If you believe they are, how can you believe the words written are just Joseph's interpretation?

Are English words, spoken to someone for whom English is his native tongue, all that hard to understand?

Do you doubt Joseph's comprehension of the English language, or God's communication skills?

Do you even believe in God?

[Kerry A. Shirts]

You just make me sad. Somehow I just figured you were potentially more reasoned than this and here you reveal the core of your perspective is precisely that - your perspective.

I have never in my life thought to quote a Styx song in a religious conversation but my expectations of you as a man grounded in the faith, albeit with some extreme interests, has been shattered.

Every night I say a prayer in the hope that there's a heaven

And every day I'm more confused as the saints turn into sinners

All the heroes and legends I knew as a child have fallen to idols of clay

And I feel this empty place inside so afraid that I've lost my faith

(Show me the Way - Styx)

Fortunately it is only my faith in your commitment. Alas some dreams die hard.

I must go and rest and try to recover - I think I hear Craig Paxton laughing in the back ground.

I used to be "more reasoned" in simply accepting what to believe in......and then it hit me like a ton of bricks........they ain't teaching me HOW to think and observe. You want the startling naked truth? Read Grant Hardy's book "Understanding the Book of Mormon," a very seriously important look into the truly human nature and interpretation of scripture...... if it saddens you that I have discovered this obvious fact, perhaps you can pray to God to hide that truth in that book from you and never allow you to fall into the temptation of reading another Mormon's interpretation of Nephi's interpretation of Lehi's interpretation of the vision of the Tree of Life from God........

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I can see how you might say that about "Lectures on Faith," but it seems to me (from what you've said on this thread) that you feel exactly the same way about the New Testament, the BOM, and the Doctrine and Covenants.

I take it you don't believe any of those sections of D&C that are headed "a revelation received by the prophet Joseph Smith," wherein Christ is quoted speaking in the first person, really are recordings of Christ's words (as they were spoken by Christ, and heard by Joseph Smith less than 200 years ago)?

If you believe they are, how can you believe the words written are just Joseph's interpretation?

Are English words, spoken to someone for whom English is his native tongue, all that hard to understand?

Do you doubt Joseph's comprehension of the English language, or God's communication skills?

Do you even believe in God?

They all certainly are revelations from God to Joseph Smith which as a human mind, HAS to interpret it and put them into the faulty English language to then convey to us as an interpretation of what God said. You really believe that God meant the same thing anciently in the Hebrew tongue to Israel that he means now in our completely changed day of America?! You don't think it's interpreted? I am merely stating the facts. Everything is interpreted, from Nephi's different interpretation from Lehi about things, to the Mulekites, Jaredites, Nephites, Lamanites, Josephites, Mormons, Catholics, etc. ALL scripture was written by human peoples describing their interactions and its meaning (interpretation) of God in their lives as they could comprehend....... God did not write one single word in any book of scripture. It has always come through human minds to pen and paper, and to this very single day and night as I type all Mormons do NOT agree to the meaning, interpretation of those scriptures in any single facet.......... I am simply observing, I have not declared anything about what I believe yet.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Samlam:

and here you reveal the core of your perspective is precisely that - your perspective.

Kerry:

Hey...... there might be hope for you yet.......now just expand that to every other human who has ever lived, breathed, prayed, and written, and you finally get it. It is ALWAYS in human interpretative perspective...... your own perspective from your limited intelligence is that it makes you sad about what I observe. That is YOUR perspective. Mine, from my limited intelligence is that it isn't sad, it simply is........ it exists for all to see.

[Aliwe]

ALL scripture was written by human peoples describing their interactions and its meaning (interpretation) of God in their lives as they could comprehend....... God did not write one single word in any book of scripture.

On the contrary, it is written (Exodus 31:18) And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

[3DOP]

Kerry Shirts!

Hi. I trust you are well.

You may remember an exchange we had about eight years ago on ZLMB. The subject matter that prompted our discussion was only peripheral. It was about the role of women in the church. You had just seen some program on TV that caused you to say that Mary Magdalene was an apostle. But to get where we really differed in our opinions is when you suggested a principle which I suspect you still hold. For a "blast from the past", maybe you remember saying this:

I have come to realize that Orthodoxy never gets it correct. Orthodoxy becomes the enemy so-to-speak, of truth, which comes via INDIVIDUALS, not organizations. I have no idea why this is, but the patterns of history are manifest for any who wish to see them. That's truly bizarre, since I belong to an organization I very much enjoy and believe in. But it is *always* to individuals, who receive the revelations, that overthrow an orthodoxy

---http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/reply/194433/CNN-The-Two-Mary-s#reply-194433

I said some things then that I would withdraw now myself elsewhere in the thread. I am sure you might as well, but I retain a strong difference of opinion against the notion that truth is more readily discovered in individuals than in communities. In keeping with our thread topic, on why God allows souls to be deceived, I suggested to you in 2004 that by accepting the need to reconcile new possible discoveries with prior established beliefs, one is less likely to be led astray. I was suggesting that if God sometimes raises up prophets who speak new truths, "individuality" has its dangers too:

Kerry, I wouldn't for the world squelch anyone's joy of discovery, and wonder, and mystery. I trust you will not be very much phased by what I have said above. Indeed, I wouldn't want you to be terribly phased. But I would have you pause to rethink what you say you have realized about organizations. Just on a natural plane, It is a lot easier to deceive isolated individuals than organizations. On the next level, the supernatural, how long will it be before you grow so wary of "orthodox organizations" as to deny the Catholic and LDS traditions which say that Christ established a "Church"?

Like Catholics, many LDS seem to perceive an important need to reconcile our minds to beliefs that have been preserved by our respective faith communities. I don't think those of us who are troubled by your speculations have a problem with discovery at all. My own Church tradition teaches explicitly that the Church will advance and progress doctrinally, but that if the "advancement" seems irreconcilable with what has been previously received, that we as individuals are required to reconsider and ultimately renounce private beliefs. Individual solutions to the mysteries of faith are not precluded by such submission. The benefit is that by accepting a doctrinal inheritance, we are rooted safely in fundamental agreement with one's spiritual fathers in the faith. Advancement remains possible while self-deception is avoided, and our often undependably wild imaginations are held in check. Of course, we may still be wrong because we have chosen the wrong faith community, but at least we will not betray the faith of our fathers.

One answer then to why God might necessarily allow certain individuals to be deceived, would be if they couldn't see a need to conform their beliefs to those of any organized faith community, especially the one to which they profess adherence.

Good to see again you, Kerry. There seems to be nothing new for either of us!

Regards,

3DOP (aka Rory)

Edited June 23, 2012 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

Good morning Kerry.

I have slept on your further remarks made yesterday about your current views of God's inability to effectively communicate to man because of the inherent flaws in human nature and language.

The Holy Ghost is NOT a unifier of thought.....man look around! Do you see all of mankind, let alone all of Mormons in a unification of thought, belief, practice, etc.? You'd think after 200 years perhaps there could be some sort of progress on that front wouldn't you? <snip> You want the startling naked truth? Read Grant Hardy's book "Understanding the Book of Mormon," a very seriously important look into the truly human nature and interpretation of scripture......

If I interpret you correctly you are a skeptic about whether we can understand anything that God reveals contemporarily because of the limitations of language and our natures. In regards to more distant revelations, they are even further impossible to understand. Assuredly, I do not suggest that you are implying that God is at fault here. But your philosophy seems to me to preclude the very notion of communicable revelation to be shared with a community at all! You seem to express assurance that mankind is a confused and irrational being who for no apparent reason dwells in an intellectual darkness so thick as to be incapable of having communications from God that can be understood and maintained. Of course you do not call it total depravity, but even the Calvinist believes that God can effectively and accurately overcome spiritual blindness if and when He chooses. At minimum all faith traditions affirm that God chooses to make Himself known, and that God successfully transcends any human limitations.

In practical application, your skepticism about the limitations of language seems to me to reduce the revelation of our being "made in the image and likeness of God" to be of very little advantage. What advantage does a man have over a neighing horse, barking dog, or growling bear if human speech is such a confusing and ineffective tool of communication as you seem to be saying?

3DOP

[Deborah]

All scripture must be looked at in context and too many times people remove the context in using a passage to support their opinion. Context not only includes time and place and audience in which a certain scripture was given but the whole body of scripture and how it fits with the gospel.

I believe that when people interpret events or scripture differently it is because they are looking at it from a different contexts. Some people may have been searching for the truth for a long time and when they hear the gospel message it fits in with their previous studying and thinking and so accepting the gospel becomes very easy. Others may have just happened upon the missionaries and so not really been searching but are intrigued by the message. Yet because their context is not the same as the person who had already searched the scriptures and prayed diligently they may not be prepared for the additional enlightenment which could be theirs but which simply doesn't fit into their current paradigm.

In any case I don't believe God leads anyone away from his message but because of agency we can choose not to hear the message, and by that I mean spiritually, and so they will go another way. But the seed has been planted and I've seen such people find their way back and fully embrace the message of the gospel and the church.

[bcuzbcuz]

When does God allow people to be deceived?

The answer must be: All day, every day. 24/7

If you do not ask a question in the way prescribed and with the proper spirit you will not receive guidance. And the exact prescription is known only by God and you may have to ask for 30 years or more. Even then, he answers only in his "own time".

[Kerry A. Shirts]

On the contrary, it is written (Exodus 31:18) And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

God did not write THAT sentence, someone else did. There is no single existing scripture on the planet where God personally has taken pen in hand and written on parchment, vellum, metal, paper, or whatever substance and given it to us. Absolutely every word of God has come through human minds....... this is not to disparage the wonderful revelations of God, it is to note the fact that it is we humans who are recording the information through our limited ability of the human mind...

[Kerry A. Shirts]

All scripture must be looked at in context and too many times people remove the context in using a passage to support their opinion. Context not only includes time and place and audience in which a certain scripture was given but the whole body of scripture and how it fits with the gospel.

I believe that when people interpret events or scripture differently it is because they are looking at it from a different contexts. Some people may have been searching for the truth for a long time and when they hear the gospel message it fits in with their previous studying and thinking and so accepting the gospel becomes very easy. Others may have just happened upon the missionaries and so not really been searching but are intrigued by the message. Yet because their context is not the same as the person who had already searched the scriptures and prayed diligently they may not be prepared for the additional enlightenment which could be theirs but which simply doesn't fit into their current paradigm.

In any case I don't believe God leads anyone away from his message but because of agency we can choose not to hear the message, and by that I mean spiritually, and so they will go another way. But the seed has been planted and I've seen such people find their way back and fully embrace the message of the gospel and the church.

Nicely said........ this is quite similar to my understanding and interpretation.....

[Aliwe]

God did not write THAT sentence, someone else did.

Yes indeed, but that sentence tells us that the Ten Commandments, which we do find in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, were written on stone by the finger of God. So the Pentateuch contains two parchment copies of what God wrote himself. You can choose to disbelieve that, but if you do, I have one word for you. Well, four words: MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN!

[inquiringmind]

This is from the Joseph Smith Translation (and it agrees with all other translations I've seen.)

Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt; And I have said I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey. And they shall hearken to thy voice; and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us; and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God. (Ex. 3:16-18.)

My question is, why were they told to ask for three days leave, when it took them three months to reach mount Sinai (and would have taken them somewhat longer, even if they hadn't wandered in the wilderness for forty years, to reach the land of Canaan)?

Edited June 23, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Aliwe]

My question is, why were they told to ask for three days leave, when it took them three months to reach mount Sinai (and would have taken them somewhat longer, even if they hadn't wandered in the wilderness for forty years, to reach the land of Canaan)?

It started small enough. Moses was only asking for three days of religious leave. No one was ready to actually leave Egypt. But Pharaoh wouldn't do even that small favor, so it escalated from there, and killing the firstborn of all Egypt was really burning their bridges.

[inquiringmind]

It started small enough. Moses was only asking for three days of religious leave. No one was ready to actually leave Egypt. But Pharaoh wouldn't do even that small favor, so it escalated from there, and killing the firstborn of all Egypt was really burning their bridges.

I don't think the Israelites went from house to house killing the firstborn of all Egypt, but my question is why God told them to ask for three days of religious leave, if His intention (right from the very beginning) was to deliver them from slavery and give them the land of Canaan?

Was Moses told to mislead Pharaoh here?

Edited June 23, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Aliwe]

Was Moses told to mislead Pharaoh here?

God was quite sure that Pharaoh wouldn't do the three days thing, so he was planning a breakout AND a robbery.

Exodus 3:

[18] And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

[19] And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

[20] And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

[21] And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty:

[22] But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians.

[inquiringmind]

God was quite sure that Pharaoh wouldn't do the three days thing, so he was planning a breakout AND a robbery.

So was that a deception?

[Aliwe]

So was that a deception?

Absolutely. Especially the part about making off with jewelry. Their Egyptian friends and neighbors "lent" them jewels of silver and gold, ostensibly to wear for the "three day feast", and also much clothing for the trip. They all assumed the Immigrants would return within the week and give it all back. But we have seen this sort of thing before. Jacob and Rebecca pulled the wool over Isaac's eyes, made him think he was blessing Esau. Joseph made his brothers dance through all kinds of bureaucratic hoops until he had been avenged for being sold off to the Ishmaelites.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Kerry Shirts!

Hi. I trust you are well.

You may remember an exchange we had about eight years ago on ZLMB. The subject matter that prompted our discussion was only peripheral. It was about the role of women in the church. You had just seen some program on TV that caused you to say that Mary Magdalene was an apostle. But to get where we really differed in our opinions is when you suggested a principle which I suspect you still hold. For a "blast from the past", maybe you remember saying this:

---http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/reply/194433/CNN-The-Two-Mary-s#reply-194433

I said some things then that I would withdraw now myself elsewhere in the thread. I am sure you might as well, but I retain a strong difference of opinion against the notion that truth is more readily discovered in individuals than in communities. In keeping with our thread topic, on why God allows souls to be deceived, I suggested to you in 2004 that by accepting the need to reconcile new possible discoveries with prior established beliefs, one is less likely to be led astray. I was suggesting that if God sometimes raises up prophets who speak new truths, "individuality" has its dangers too:

Like Catholics, many LDS seem to perceive an important need to reconcile our minds to beliefs that have been preserved by our respective faith communities. I don't think those of us who are troubled by your speculations have a problem with discovery at all. My own Church tradition teaches explicitly that the Church will advance and progress doctrinally, but that if the "advancement" seems irreconcilable with what has been previously received, that we as individuals are required to reconsider and ultimately renounce private beliefs. Individual solutions to the mysteries of faith are not precluded by such submission. The benefit is that by accepting a doctrinal inheritance, we are rooted safely in fundamental agreement with one's spiritual fathers in the faith. Advancement remains possible while self-deception is avoided, and our often undependably wild imaginations are held in check. Of course, we may still be wrong because we have chosen the wrong faith community, but at least we will not betray the faith of our fathers.

One answer then to why God might necessarily allow certain individuals to be deceived, would be if they couldn't see a need to conform their beliefs to those of any organized faith community, especially the one to which they profess adherence.

Good to see again you, Kerry. There seems to be nothing new for either of us!

Regards,

3DOP (aka Rory)

It appears to me that you ultimately put organizations above humans. I don't. Good to see you again after all this time too Rory.

[inquiringmind]

Absolutely. Especially the part about making off with jewelry. Their Egyptian friends and neighbors "lent" them jewels of silver and gold, ostensibly to wear for the "three day feast", and also much clothing for the trip. They all assumed the Immigrants would return within the week and give it all back. But we have seen this sort of thing before. Jacob and Rebecca pulled the wool over Isaac's eyes, made him think he was blessing Esau. Joseph made his brothers dance through all kinds of bureaucratic hoops until he had been avenged for being sold off to the Ishmaelites.

So how do you personally reconcile that with passages (like Titus 1:2, and Hebrews 6:18) that say that God cannot lie?