Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou

[mercyngrace]

I missed a previous statement of yours, about separate standards. Though I believe that LDS people should and are duty to live a higher standard, and conduct themselves according to the rule of "Do unto others", I do not advocate that two standards of conduct for this board.

I believe President Hinckley made the comment about "lifting up" others, it seems in regard to the issue of conduct LDS people have lowered themselves to conduct of others.

Treehugger,

The issue isn't whether LDS should live their standards. The issue is whether the board should compel LDS to live by a higher standard and whether it will tolerate unofficial policing of the board based on religious affiliation (i.e. board nannying).

The former approach would turn the board into a police state and moderators would be working 24-7. The latter approach doesn't work and only breeds the same contention you are trying to avoid.

Just be your best self and let others reap and sow as they will.

[David T]

I dont' think DavidT was calling for a different standard for either critics or LDS, but rather a higher standard of civility for both....not necessarily imposed from without by a mod, but more likely motivated from within from desire for quality discussion. He can correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation.

You are very much correct in your interpretation. Dead on.

[Bob Oliverio]

No details have been released yet. And the only poster who informed us he has read part of it so is banned from the thread, I believe. You will just have to be patient like the rest of us, I guess.

And I suspect it will be waited for with baited breath for several inside the Provo/BYU circle.  But I will bet it won't travel far beyond that.  I would give 100 to 1 odds it ever reaches any of the wards in Atlanta.  We're still trying to attract new members who don't come from Utah.  

Anyway, small ponds with big fish sounds like the place to be out west.

[volgadon]

We're still trying to attract new members who don't come from Utah.

It is not like this was supposed to be some sort of advertising campaign to attract new members. Besides, half your posts are pretty parochial when looked at from a worldwide perspective, but so what?

[David T]

It is not like this was supposed to be some sort of advertising campaign to attract new members. Besides, half your posts are pretty parochial when looked at from a worldwide perspective, but so what?

FWIW, I serve in a Stake just north of Atlanta. We're very pleased with our number of strong and committed covert baptisms this year. None of which, I'm aware, have come from Utah.

[rodheadlee]

And I suspect it will be waited for with baited breath for several inside the Provo/BYU circle. But I will bet it won't travel far beyond that. I would give 100 to 1 odds it ever reaches any of the wards in Atlanta. We're still trying to attract new members who don't come from Utah.

Anyway, small ponds with big fish sounds like the place to be out west.

Do you have a temple there in Atlanta Bob? We might be in the Savanah ward this summer, if we can quit smoking, we'll be getting sealed.

[ebeddoulos]

So what did I miss? It's ok to criticize the Church, it's ok to criticize it's members but it's not ok to criticize the critics of the Church?

Pretty much square on the head. The only things you missed is 1) that if you do criticize the critics, it just goes to proves that you are not a good Latter-day Saint and especially not a good Christian; 2) It is OK if a critic misconstrues what a Latter-day Saint says but no Latter-day Saint and especial Daniel Peterson can inadvertently do so, 3) No matter what a critic says and how badly he says it, the critic is supposed to get a pass.

[volgadon]

FWIW, I serve in a Stake just north of Atlanta. We're very pleased with our number of strong and committed covert baptisms this year. None of which, I'm aware, have come from Utah.

Wonderful. My wife is a convert, first in her family.

[volgadon]

Pretty much square on the head. The only things you missed is 1) that if you do criticize the critics, it just goes to proves that you are not a good Latter-day Saint and especially not a good Christian; 2) It is OK if a critic misconstrues what a Latter-day Saint says but no Latter-day Saint and especial Daniel Peterson can inadvertently do so, 3) No matter what a critic says and how badly he says it, the critic is supposed to get a pass.

The other way of looking at this is that we can't control others, but why not take the higher road?

[David T]

Wonderful. My wife is a convert, first in her family.

I'm a convert, first (and currently only) in my side of the family. I joined the Church in Savannah. Came from the Northeast ... not from Utah.

Edited May 12, 2012 by David T

[ebeddoulos]

The other way of looking at this is that we can't control others, but why not take the higher road?

I see no disagreement in what you said and what I said. Latter-day Saints, by our very nature, take the high road.

[volgadon]

I'm a convert, first (and currently only) in my side of the family. I joined the Church in Savannah. Came from the Northeast ... not from Utah.

I have some Utah roots on my mom's side, but my wife and I aren't originally from Utah, nor is it permanently home for us. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with Utah, but, let's say amid the alien corn.

[volgadon]

I see no disagreement in what you said and what I said. Latter-day Saints, by our very nature, take the high road.

Not always. Unfortunately, I can't say I've always been the exception.

[Skylla]

Nomad has been banned from the board.

Skylla

[Teancum]

Rufus, I am genuinely sorry about the faith crisis you experienced and that FAIR was unable to assist you in navigating that. In an effort to improve for the future, I would be interested to learn which of our materials you perceived as being harsh or negative. It is certainly never our intent to frame responses in that fashion, and we genuinely endeavor to improve wherever we might have fallen down. If you would rather write to me directly, my e-mail is klbarney at yahoo dot com.

I will say that FAIR simply seeks to make Mormon scholarship available in a fashion that is more readily digestible by most non-scholars. If you found Richard Bushman a threat to your faith, I can well understand why we couldn't help much, since it is unlikely that we are going to be able to improve much upon Bushman, who represents the state of the art in contemporary Joseph Smith scholarship.

Blessings and peace,

Kevin Barney

I hold this out as exhibit A 1 for how to respond to those who have questions, concerns and/or issues that are causing a testimony to be in turmoil. Well done Mr. Barney.

[Teancum]

For John Dehlin.

Greg Smith says thanks for all the extra material for his lengthy appendix he is now writing for his paper.

Guess 104 pages was just not enough for this fascinating topic.

It is fascinating to note that if Dehlin had not attempted to suppress the article it might have garnered a few hundred readers when published. Since he has created a scandal about it by trying to suppress it, it will now no doubt reach thousands.

Are you saying it will be published and you support such publication regardless of the apparent request of a high ranking leader of the Church not to publish it? I thought you supported decisions of the LDS hierarchy and yet here we see much glee about the publication of this article., I assume in some other venue, by you and others here.

What and amazing thing. I will wait with anticipation to see how this plays out.

For the record, as much as I am personally a friend and supporter of John Dehlin, and I also consider Dan Peterson a friend and I am a supporter of Dan and often think he gets and unfair rap, I will note that I am saddened by the turn of this situation for all involved.

I think John may have made a mistake by trying to have the article not published. John is out in a very pubic venue and as such is not above fair criticism. If the article is really bad then those who write it and publish it will suffer for it. And yes the Church that is defended by that group may suffer as well. If it is an honest critical piece then it can be responded to properly and with measure. I do think this may hurt some here.

All that said I am still amazed at the vitriol I see spewed by some here. Honestly I think a few here are very evil in what they say and post. If IRL they are like they are here then they are evil persons. Sorry but I think that has to be said. There are some here who really hurt the faith that they seem to want to support and defend.

[Teancum]

As for the Smith article concerning John Dehlin, it is not, by any means, anything that could be reasonably characterized as an "ad hominem attack piece", considering the fact that virtually all of the damaging material is drawn directly from Dehlin's own words!

I don't trust your judgement. If it ever is published I will read it myself and decide whether it is a personal attack or not. You don't have to keep repeating your now overused point.

So ........... back to the inimitable Dehlin.

As I mentioned somewhere else earlier today, a couple Saturdays back I had a long phone conversation with the venerable Lou Midgley--who, ironically enough, has been made the target of several ad hominem attacks at the hands of John Dehlin. In that conversation, I predicted that, sooner or later, Dehlin would self-destruct; that his apostasy would lead him into a lapse of judgment that would permanently cripple his influence among the Saints, just like Korihor of old.

I see you are back to your favorite pass time of predicting persons imminent apostasy and fall.

I am pleased to have so soon seen the fulfillment of that casual prediction.

And that you continue to pat yourself on the back about it and be happy about someone's apostasy. This I think is evil. Someone's fall and apostasy should sadden you not please you. You know, that lost sheep thing Jesus talked about.

The irony at this stage of the game is that Dehlin is so completely blinded by narcissistic delusions, that he can actually state, in a public setting, bizarre things such as this:

I guess you would know and recognize narcissism well since you are intimately familiar with it. Your posting above is in fact, narcissistic.

I am a great fan of dramatic and profound ironies, and this one is almost Shakespearean in its scope and depth. I'm loving every minute of it as it unfolds …

If indeed you think a man is falling and headed for hell why would you love it. This is indeed evil.

[Bob Crockett]

Now I can no longer divine who are the bad guys and who are the good guys. After those tough posts.

Just as well. John D I look forward to quality podcasts. MI and FAIR you have my undying gratitude and support.

[Libs]

I just want to say, if there is still to be a piece published on John Dehlin, I hope to goodness that it is fair and not just a "hit piece", (as it has been described). Frankly, if it were to be a "hit piece", I would be very shocked, because I just have not seen that or had that opinion of FAIR or Maxwell Institute. I used to read articles on both sites, fairly often, even before I was struggling with some issues, and I don't recall ever reading anything I could call a "hit piece". I'm not sure why that would change (unless I am being very naive...always a possibility, I guess).

On John's behalf, he has done some wonderful work and I think it would be an absolute travesty, if all of this, in any way, made him want to stop. There should be room in the church for John and people like him, IMO, questions and all..mistakes and all. We all make them.

All of this contention over an article that most of us have not even seen, is very unfortunate, IMO.

[Teancum]

The frenzy over at my Malevolent Stalker's board about The Affair of the Essay that None of the Critics Have Seen is apparently beginning to die down. Which is not surprising, since even a place like that can't keep going forever on absolutely nothing; a true perpetual motion machine hasn't yet been invented. And, with the weekend coming on, the participants there will be on their own time, away from their workplace computers, so they'll have less leisure to post.

.

Dr Peterson, may I make a correction? That other board is not your Stalker's board. He/she is simply another poster there. He/she does not own the board nor control it though he/she can be very prolific in his/her spins, innuendo's and malevolence. It is not something I agree with or can abide.

I wanted to make that point.

Also, perhaps here is not the best place to state this but I do express to you my condolences on the loss of your brother. I have lost a number of people very close to me this past year. Losing a loved one is among the most painful of life's experiences that we are called to endure and even more so if the death is untimely. You are in my prayers.

[Teancum]

Now I can no longer divine who are the bad guys and who are the good guys. After those tough posts.

Just as well. John D I look forward to quality podcasts. MI and FAIR you have my undying gratitude and support.

Do you laugh to yourself while you type meaningless posts that only you think are funny and witty?

[Scott Lloyd]

The frenzy over at my Malevolent Stalker's board about The Affair of the Essay that None of the Critics Have Seen is apparently beginning to die down. ...

.

Daniel,

I just now read your March 23 blog post, the one written just after you learned of your brother's death. Very beautifully expressed and edifying to read.

You are a gifted writer, and I think that ability must be something of a comfort to you at a time like this when the ability to articulate one's most sublime thoughts is so needed.

As for Scratch, at long last has he no decency?

[why me]

I think you have missed his point completely. I see James comment as a lament that of what has happened on this thread. Several posters on this thread has advocated lower themselves to the level of conduct of their critics. I believe is referring to how can people who claim Christ promote such behavior.

Nonsense. We are just people. Did not Christ overturn the tables of the money changers? Was he not outraged by their behavior? I am sure that this was not the only time that christ lost his temper. We just don't know about it. Also Joseph Smith was known for his own loss of temper at times and people left the church because of this behavior that they witnessed. People are human beings. It is only in a cult where people are taught to suppress all emotional outbursts and fellow the leader.

[mfbukowski]

On another board where this alleged article was first discussed, it was disclosed that I am also about to be the target of Maxwell Institute hit piece. I have less first hand knowledge of this than John claims for the article he believes is about him. I have not made any attempt to stop its publication (if it exists). I have no GA friends to whom I might appeal, but I do have a couple of men inside the Maxwell Institute whom I call friends. I haven't even asked if it is true.

Echoing John, I don't mind being criticized. Standing on what I have written, I would want such an article published.

I am late to the thread.

Just in case anyone wants to write a hit piece on me (who would bother in the first place?) they would be in serious trouble.

Forget the General Authorities- they are light weights.

I would call my Mommy, and man, there would be he** to pay.

Edited May 12, 2012 by mfbukowski

[why me]

I feel confident that salvation is found in charity and not in "rhetoric about ad hominems and hit pieces" or in "angry, clever, passive-aggressive rebuttals".

I feel confident that salvation is found in love and in the ability to stand up for one's beliefs when those beliefs are belittled and attacked. Joseph did it. Brigham did it. And many other members in the early history of the saints did it. Sidney did it. Here is a good homework assignment: go to the exmormon site, address the attacks with love and charity and watch what happens. You will be banned within two posts. And the attacks will continue. It is not easy defending the lds church and it never was. But playing the I am more loving than thou card does not do it. If a person loves something they defend it with passion and not with suppressed human emotion.