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When Mormons Intrude On Jewish Practices: We Can Apologize For Our Actions, But Not Our Beliefs.


Bill “Papa” Lee

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I found this article and was disappointed when reading it. Our teachings are not meant to target any one group.

Some of the quotes from the article (see link below)

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/when-mormons-intrude-on-jewish-practices-1.414573

“In Utah, our group of Jewish teenagers was led into a “special room” with a talking Jesus statue intended to inspire us to convert, as we were told free copies of the Book of Mormon in almost every language including Hebrew were available on the way out”.
“…during our New York City visit our speaker presented us with a book from under the lectern entitled, “So How Come a Nice Jewish Boy Became a Mormon,” and encouraged our group of future rabbis to read the book”.

That one is somewhat is disappointing.

Our practice of “Baptism for the Dead” does not “intrude on Jewish practices”.

I do not mind the bright light of criticism being shined upon us…but the dim light of misunderstanding hurts my eyes.

Do any of you ever feel like we ought to just throw up our hands and times and just let Temple work be done only by family members (or someone who is designated by the Family) to do work in Temple and leave the rest of the Temple work to the Millennium?

Feeling frustrated…

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There was a fireside that provided an opportunity for LDS to hear from a diverse group of spiritual leaders from everything from Islam to Judaism and a few in between. It was a very well done because it focused on the commonalities between the groups. Of course, a brother in his mid to late twenties gave the closing prayer in which he condemned all their religions and prayed that God would lead them each to the Church. First I wanted to smack the dimwit and then I felt like it would have been better for the Church to call a person that would not alienate and yet be wise in his words. All are seeking truth; not just LDS; and no groups has all truth.

We all make such boneheaded mistakes. God loves us in spite of ourselves.

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I want to ask a sincere question:

How would you feel if another religion, according to it's doctrine, determined that some type of ordinance or ritual was necessary for your dead parents or grandparents to gain a place in an afterlife that neither you nor your dead relatives agreed with? What if that ritual was carried out without your permission?

Would you allow the ritual to take place? How would you feel about the use of your family's genealogy for such purposes?

Would it matter if the group was a Christian sect? Non-Christian sect? Would it matter if the group was more aligned with occultism and mysticism than it was with Abrahamic-based beliefs?

H.

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How would you feel if another religion, according to it's doctrine, determined that some type of ordinance or ritual was necessary for your dead parents or grandparents to gain a place in an afterlife that neither you nor your dead relatives agreed with? What if that ritual was carried out without your permission?

Would you allow the ritual to take place? How would you feel about the use of your family's genealogy for such purposes?

Would it matter if the group was a Christian sect? Non-Christian sect? Would it matter if the group was more aligned with occultism and mysticism than it was with Abrahamic-based beliefs?

Since none of us believed it to be useful (i.e., they're wasting their time and other resources to no effect whatsoever) why should I care in the least?

It doesn't matter which (combination) of your alternatives is the case: they're doing nothing that actually has any redemptive power, and, since that's the case, what they claim it to be doing doesn't occur. My grandparents (for example) are not thereby made anything different from what had been the case.

To feel any other way: to be offended, to be outraged, to be concerned at all or to any degree; means that I'd fear they really did have some power. That would mean that my own faith is both weak and useless, neither of which is the case.

So, I say, "Let 'em have at it!" "Do your best (or worst)."

Lehi

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Since none of us believed it to be useful (i.e., they're wasting their time and other resources to no effect whatsoever) why should I care in the least?

It doesn't matter which (combination) of you alternatives is the case: they're doing nothing that actually has any redemptive power, and, since that's the case, what they claim it to be doing doesn't occur. My grandparents (for example) are not thereby made anything different from what had been the case.

To feel any other way, to be offended, to be outraged, to be concerned at all or to any degree, means that I'd fear they really did have some power. That would mean that my own faith is both weak and useless, neither of which is the case.

So, I say, "Let 'em have at it!" "Do your best (or worst)."

Lehi

Would you then say that those of the Jewish faith who have asked the Church not to baptise their ancestors have a weak and useless faith?

H.

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I was speaking of myself in regards to your inane "parallel".

We don't know how many of the Jews (not the strap-hangers using this ploy to club the Church) really have any belief at all in post mortality: not all do. For those who do not, they have no faith whatsoever, and their indignation has nothing to do with faith.

Whether they do or not, however, if they believe that what we do in the Temples has any effect, then they cannot maintain that what they believe has any power, because what we believe must be more powerful. If they do not believe our actions have any validity, then it remains to be asked: what is their beef?

Lehi

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I want to ask a sincere question:

How would you feel if another religion, according to it's doctrine, determined that some type of ordinance or ritual was necessary for your dead parents or grandparents to gain a place in an afterlife that neither you nor your dead relatives agreed with? What if that ritual was carried out without your permission?

Would you allow the ritual to take place? How would you feel about the use of your family's genealogy for such purposes?

Would it matter if the group was a Christian sect? Non-Christian sect? Would it matter if the group was more aligned with occultism and mysticism than it was with Abrahamic-based beliefs?

H.

I have already stated that I understand their objections, this thread is about how doing this "Intrudes On Jewish Practices". Could we keep it there fro just a little while.

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I was speaking of myself in regards to your inane "parallel".

We don't know how many of the Jews (not the strap-hangers using this ploy to club the Church) really have any belief at all in post mortality: not all do. For those who do not, they have no faith whatsoever, and their indignation has nothing to do with faith.

Whether they do or not, however, if they believe that what we do in the Temples has any effect, then they cannot maintain that what they believe has any power, because what we believe must be more powerful. If they do not believe our actions have any validity, then it remains to be asked: what is their beef?

Lehi

Is it possible that their beef has something to do with the notion that, once a dead soul has received ordinances in the temple, there is now a claim that the dead soul has somehow become "Mormon"? They are no longer Jewish because they have accepted Jesus Christ and his ordinances. I wonder if that would irritate any of my Jewish friends, knowing that their ancestors died in the Holocaust, or suffered for who they were, only to have that identity stripped away by a Christian church.

H.

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I have already stated that I understand their objections, this thread is about how doing this "Intrudes On Jewish Practices". Could we keep it there fro just a little while.

Sure - doesn't the author explain it here:

" Jews must stand together firmly and publicly in condemning these actions as deeply offensive to the Holocaust victims who died for kiddush hashem, for the sanctification of God’s name. “For the sake of Zion, we must not be silent” (Isaiah 62:1) about this deep insensitivity.

Yet, on the other hand, I also believe that this Mormon intrusion on Jewish religious practice (Jews believe that we are only judged by the deeds we do while we are still alive) is sad—perhaps, even tragic—given the potential alliance that Jews and Mormons could have with each other."

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Is it possible that their beef has something to do with the notion that, once a dead soul has received ordinances in the temple, there is now a claim that the dead soul has somehow become "Mormon"?

The notion may exist, but it's not an LDS notion. People can be offended for any reason they choose, but they ought to know that what they take offense at is their own idea, not ours.

They are no longer Jewish because they have accepted Jesus Christ and his ordinances.

Once again, this is not an LDS idea. Far from it. We, with regard to the twelve tribes of Israel, recognize that Judah (the Jews as a whole people) are and remain God's chosen people.

I wonder if that would irritate any of my Jewish friends, knowing that their ancestors died in the Holocaust, or suffered for who they were, only to have that identity stripped away by a Christian church.

Which may be what they imagine happens, but it has no bearing on what we believe, and any logical understanding and reaction to our beliefs and practices must reject this concept in toto.

Jews will be Jews in the Celestial kingdom (Terrestrial and telestial, as well). They will worship their God, Jehovah, and be redeemed just as they (under the Law of Moses) believed would happen. Their Messiah will be Jewish (as ours is), and we will worship with them, just as they will with us. At least, it will be so if they accept the ordinance done on their behalf, but only if.

Lehi

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Sure - doesn't the author explain it here:

" Jews must stand together firmly and publicly in condemning these actions as deeply offensive to the Holocaust victims who died for kiddush hashem, for the sanctification of God’s name. “For the sake of Zion, we must not be silent” (Isaiah 62:1) about this deep insensitivity.

Yet, on the other hand, I also believe that this Mormon intrusion on Jewish religious practice (Jews believe that we are only judged by the deeds we do while we are still alive) is sad—perhaps, even tragic—given the potential alliance that Jews and Mormons could have with each other."

Not to my satisfaction. I am not sure how this intrudes on "their" practices?

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I want to ask a sincere question:

How would you feel if another religion, according to it's doctrine, determined that some type of ordinance or ritual was necessary for your dead parents or grandparents to gain a place in an afterlife that neither you nor your dead relatives agreed with? What if that ritual was carried out without your permission?

Would you allow the ritual to take place? How would you feel about the use of your family's genealogy for such purposes?

Would it matter if the group was a Christian sect? Non-Christian sect? Would it matter if the group was more aligned with occultism and mysticism than it was with Abrahamic-based beliefs?

H.

If the Jews want to posthumously, and by proxy, circumcise all my dead relatives I say have at it! I'll even provide the names! If the church of Satan wants to ritualistically condemn those same ancestors to hell... well I probably won’t help them with that but I could really care less if they try.

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If the Jews want to posthumously, and by proxy, circumcise all my dead relatives I say have at it! I'll even provide the names! If the church of Satan wants to ritualistically condemn those same ancestors to hell... well I probably won’t help them with that but I could really care less if they try.

LDS seem to cling to the notion that they wouldn't care if another group, posthumously or by proxy, does something for them. They would welcome the intentions.

The problem is that no other faith does this so I'm at a lost why LDS members would welcome something that isn't happening. :nea: This only becomes valid once it actually happens and seems to be a bit of an empty welcoming that's purely speculative IMHO.

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LDS seem to cling to the notion that they wouldn't care if another group, posthumously or by proxy, does something for them. They would welcome the intentions.

The problem is that no other faith does this so I'm at a lost why LDS members would welcome something that isn't happening. :nea: This only becomes valid once it actually happens and seems to be a bit of an empty welcoming that's purely speculative IMHO.

That is because so many groups try to tell us we would be offended IF they did a similar act, the bottom line is we wouldn't and STILL don't understand why they are.

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That is because so many groups try to tell us we would be offended IF they did a similar act, the bottom line is we wouldn't and STILL don't understand why they are.

While I truly understand that offense shouldn't be taken, I have asked LDS if they would be offended if an actual satanic group performed these ordinances. The responses were mixed. Many wouldn't take any offense but there were others that would be disturbed.

There is no pleasing everyone so please practice your faith as you seem fit. Just don't let us know about it IMHO. :nea:

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Sure - doesn't the author explain it here:

" Jews must stand together firmly and publicly in condemning these actions as deeply offensive to the Holocaust victims who died for kiddush hashem, for the sanctification of God’s name. “For the sake of Zion, we must not be silent” (Isaiah 62:1) about this deep insensitivity.

I don't know who this author is, but he's wrong on at least one important point. Not all the Jews (and certainly not all of the other victims of the Holocaust) died "for the sanctification of God's name". There were millions of secular Jews in mid-XX Europe, and they were among those persecuted, too. It was their ancestry, not their faith, that took them to the ovens.

And, to make an earlier point more strongly, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is the God Whom they will worship in the Celestial Kingdom, Him and no other. We are not asking them to give up anything of their Jewishness should they determine to accept the baptism done on their behalf. They do not become something different in any voluntary transition. It's a matter of degree, not of type.

Lehi

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While I truly understand that offense shouldn't be taken, I have asked LDS if they would be offended if an actual satanic group performed these ordinances. The responses were mixed. Many wouldn't take any offense but there were others that would be disturbed.

I'd like to talk to any Saint who "would be disturbed".

There is no pleasing everyone so please practice your faith as you seem fit. Just don't let us know about it IMHO.

We're not the ones "let[ting] [you] know about it". That would be rabble-rousers like Radkey. We never publish the names of those for whom we've sacrificed to do their salvific ordinances. We don't even give the exact numbers of specific ordinances done. People, like Radkey, have to go digging through the records to find it so they can make their stink, and they usually cheat to do it.

Lehi

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