Research Questions

[Not A Convert]

A few months back I posted about my baptism being delayed due to my husband calling our bishop and saying that he didn't consent. That is a long story, and after being rescheduled for Feb 11th it was delayed again. Needless to say I am heart broken. I can confidently say that my husbands concerns have nothing to do with the church. I am so grateful for my ward and relief society and the amazing people Heavenly Father is putting in my life through this painful process!

My husband sent me a list of questions/topics concerning the church and doctrinal beliefs and what he believes are conflicts between the Bible and Book Of Mormon. I thought I would post them here one by one and we could process them together if that is OK. I have also enrolled in two of the free BYU classes OT 071 — Genesis & FAMLF 071Proclamation Principals. Please remember these questions come from my husband, a Christian but not supportive or believing in the BOM. These are his words and scripture quotes that he included with his emphasis added and likely not King James Version.

Husband's topic: The Bible plainly states that the gospel, with its inclusion of Gentiles, was not fully revealed until after Christ's death.

1. Eph. 3:3-7 Paul writes "by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: whereof I was made a minister ...... (See also Col. 1:26; 1 Peter 1: 1-12; Romans 16:25-26)
   

However, the Book of Mormon maintains that this knowledge was had in 545 B.C.

2 Nephi 25:19 "For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh... his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God. ... (v.23) For we labor... to persuade... our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

2 Nephi 26:12 "And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus in the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;"

2 Nephi 30:2 "For behold, I say unto you that as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord; and as many of the Jews as will not repent shall be cast off,"

2 Nephi 31:17 "For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and the Holy Ghost."

[Not A Convert]

I love to use the concordance and Vine's Dictionary.

I realized that my husband cut and pasted much or all of his questions out of stuff by Jerald & Sandra Tanner. I found this info on FAIR LDS stating: "Mystery" denotes a knowledge available only through revelation. There is clear Biblical evidence that some before Christ knew of Jesus.

What the FAIR article does not clarify is the Tanner's specific to the inclusion of the Gentiles in the plan of salvation. But the meaning of the word 'mystery' is the significant part.

I used the concordance to look up 'mystery': Concordance: Greek word mystērion From a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth). Mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals. A hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding. The secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly. In rabbinic writings: of an image or form seen in a vision or dream. In the NT it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit.

​I'll also note that in 1:26 the word 'from' means seperation of part or a whole. Seperation of 1 thing (from fellowship). As in 2 parts that are to be 1 that are separated. Interesting huh?

Then 'saints': its moral and spiritual significance, separated from sin and therefore consecrated to God, sacred.

The sense I got when reading this was that prior to Christ the Israelite 'world' and the 'Gentile' world had no 'common' knowledge of each other in Christ. They were separated spiritually. But that ultimately now after the resurrection that the separation is not to be from each other because we are all being 'gathered in'. The separation is to be from sin and fleshly behaviors that separate us from God.

[Calm]

A great resource for questions is the FAIR organization (I may have recommended this to you already, can't remember...am trying to go to sleep shortly so will join the actual conversation tomorrow). add-on: I see you mentioned FAIR in your second post I hadn't gotten to yet.

They are happy to deal with any informational questions about the Church you may have (I should say 'we' rather then 'they'...I am a member but tend to read submitted questions late so don't answer many plus I am not the scholar many others are).

See this page to submit questions: http://www.fairlds.org/contact-fair

Edited February 21, 2012 by calmoriah

[Buzzard]

I'm sure the folks at FAIR can do a better job than myself, but the obvious answer is that the BOM was revealed to, and written by, Israelites. Other than perhaps natives that they may have intermingled with and converted to the gospel(thus bringing them into the gospel as proselytes, as Jews in Palestine did as well) there were not gentile nations hanging about for the gospel to be revealed to. You note that in 30:2, speaking of the Gentiles, the future tense is used. It would seem to signify that bringing the gospel to gentile nations would happen at a future date. That's probably too simple of an explanation, but it seemed to make sense to me.

[Kevin Christensen]

Concerning the pre-Christian knowledge of a Messiah, you might find the work of Margaret Barker to be useful in comparison to the Book of Mormon.

Her recent talk at the Orthodox Seminary in Yonkers is a good introduction, linked at the top of the list here.

http://www.margaretb...ers/default.htm

She spoke about the Book of Mormon in 2005. Her paper on that topic is linked at www.thinlyveiled.com, as are my papers discussing how her work and sources fit with the LDS scriptures.

Best,

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Edited February 25, 2012 by Kevin Christensen

[Not A Convert]

Wow Kevin, I'm excited to lookat what you just pstec here Thanks a ton.

[Not A Convert]

Kevin, which specific papers listed here would you recommend? Thanks again.

[Kevin Christensen]

Kevin, which specific papers listed here would you recommend? Thanks again.

For starters, as an introduction to her approach, from Margaret, linked on the Thinly Veiled site, try The Second Person,

http://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf

and What King Josiah Reformed.

http://www.thinlyveiled.com/barker/josiahsreform.htm

From my stuff, pointing out how nicely her approach fits with the Book of Mormon, linked on the Thinly veiled site, "The Deuteronomist De-Christianizing of the Old Testament. On her own site, try any title that sounds interesting from the papers, and look at the sections explaining Temple Theology.

Best,

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Edited February 22, 2012 by Kevin Christensen

[volgadon]

To be honest, the New Testament maintains that prophets knew of Christ.

[altersteve]

I think the gospel not being fully revealed until after Christ's death and resurrection is referring to just that: the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In the Old Testament and most of the Book of Mormon, these events had not yet occurred. This does not mean, however, that they were not known to these people.

I could be wrong, though. That's just how I've always understood it.