"Evangelicals And Mormons: Can We Talk"

[LeSellers]

For me salvation came through hearing, responding, believing, and living out daily.

Unless "responding" includes, without fail, baptism by proper Priesthood authority (as demonstrated in Acts 18:24~19:7), salvation cannot come at all, according to biblical scripture.

Lehi

[frankenstein]

That is because of the stark contrast in both soteriological views. Mormons like Dan Peterson can adopt a quasi-Universalistic approach to salvation, which essentially allows for the possibility for almost everyone to eventually go to heaven no matter what they do or believe in this life. The Mormon doctrine of multiple kingdoms and progression from within those kingdoms, provides an adequate backdrop for kind of thinking to thrive. So Mormons don't argue that non-Mormons will go to hell in the same way Evangelicals view it. OK, good point.

But this doesn't change the fact that Mormon doctrine calls other Christian Churches apostate. They are marginalized as "Gentiles." Their forms of ministry are mocked regularly and this is given special attention in the Temple ceremony as well. If you get paid as a minister, you're a servant of Satan, period. Only Mormonism is the "one true Church." The rest only draw near to God with their lips. They have no authority. They are all following false teachers because they claim to have authority.

Evanglicals who justify their attacks by claiming Mormons drew first blood, are usually those who have statements from past LDS leaders fresh in their minds. When asked "Will all be damned but Mormons?" Joseph Smith replied, "Yes, and a great portion of them unless they repent and work righteousness." Brigham Young didn't mince words either. He said, "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity." He also said, "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness." He also said, "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" and, "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."

Ouch. Could you imagine the Mormon outrage if an Evangelical leader said these things about Mormonism? Those are the sentiments expressed by Mormonism's first two prophets.

How about thie third prophet? John Taylor said, "We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense," and that "the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century"

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing ." He goes on to say, "Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God"

How about the fourth Prophet? Willford Woodruff said, "...the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called"

Apostle Heber C. Kimball once said, "Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth ..."

George Q. Cannon stated his interpretation of the "Church of the Devil" scriptures by contradicting modern-day apologists: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon"

What about Parley P. Pratt? "The false and corrupt institutions, and still more corrupt practices of `Christendom,' have had a downward tendency in the generations of man for many centuries ...The overthrow of those ancient degenerate races is a type of that which now awaits the nations called `Christian,' or in other words, `the great whore that sitteth upon many waters."

Of course the list goes on and on until we get to McConkie and then the Church wakes up and realizes the need to embrace a more toned down approach if it hopes to thrive in post-civil rights pro-tolerance societies.

Context is very important, so is history and understanding the ground rules of that time. People were, on the whole significantly less diplomatic, especially when it came to discussing churches and their place. I dare say the deep scrutiny that Xander plagarized from other websites to cut and paste would wither the eyes when that same time period asks those other mainstream religions what they felt of Mormons. Boggs extermination order was in many quarters celebrated by these same churches.

Better to understand there was a great deal of accusation and mistrust going around.

Jeff k, what are you suggesting?

Are you suggesting that the persons quoted by Xander did not really mean what they said?

[frankenstein]

Evanglicals who justify their attacks by claiming Mormons drew first blood, are usually those who have statements from past LDS leaders fresh in their minds. When asked "Will all be damned but Mormons?" Joseph Smith replied, "Yes, and a great portion of them unless they repent and work righteousness." Brigham Young didn't mince words either. He said, "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity." He also said, "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness." He also said, "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" and, "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."

Ouch. Could you imagine the Mormon outrage if an Evangelical leader said these things about Mormonism? Those are the sentiments expressed by Mormonism's first two prophets.

How about thie third prophet? John Taylor said, "We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense," and that "the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century"

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing ." He goes on to say, "Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God"

How about the fourth Prophet? Willford Woodruff said, "...the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called"

Apostle Heber C. Kimball once said, "Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth ..."

George Q. Cannon stated his interpretation of the "Church of the Devil" scriptures by contradicting modern-day apologists: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon"

What about Parley P. Pratt? "The false and corrupt institutions, and still more corrupt practices of `Christendom,' have had a downward tendency in the generations of man for many centuries ...The overthrow of those ancient degenerate races is a type of that which now awaits the nations called `Christian,' or in other words, `the great whore that sitteth upon many waters."

Of course the list goes on and on until we get to McConkie and then the Church wakes up and realizes the need to embrace a more toned down approach if it hopes to thrive in post-civil rights pro-tolerance societies.

Context is very important, so is history and understanding the ground rules of that time. People were, on the whole significantly less diplomatic, especially when it came to discussing churches and their place. I dare say the deep scrutiny that Xander plagarized from other websites to cut and paste would wither the eyes when that same time period asks those other mainstream religions what they felt of Mormons. Boggs extermination order was in many quarters celebrated by these same churches.

Better to understand there was a great deal of accusation and mistrust going around.

Jeff k, what are you suggesting?

Are you suggesting that the persons quoted by Xander did not really mean what they said?

Edited February 10, 2012 by frankenstein

[Jeff K.]

Plagiarize from other websites? Are you friggin kidding me?? You sit here on a forum that prevents people from referencing certain websites because they consider them "anti-Mormon" but then when I present information from such websites without providing the referenced link, you claim I've plagiarized someone!!

You are PATHETIC. This is how desperate you are to poison the well at all costs? REALLY? Pahoran would be proud of you.

If you want to claim context changes anything I posted, then knock yourself out and prove it. Don't just assert it with some blase quip about how times were tough back then and Boggs was to blame for all the mean things Mormons said about Christians.

Do you really think any of these citations I provided needed to be "cut and pasted" from anywhere besides an online Journal of Discourses?

Good grief. Of course I cut and pasted them from a precompiled list! For the sake of convenience and brevity, that's why. Accusing me of "plagiarism" is just pathetic. In any event, too bad for you these comments still originate from those "tolerant" LDS leaders. Much much more could be added to the list though.

Seem to have hit a nerve. (Note to self :remember where it is next time when I want to amused). I note he avoids discussing in historical context.

Of course Graham (Xander), as a rather well-read apostate, knows this, but he is resorting to the common anti-Mormon tactic of cherry-picking antiquated, out-of-context quotations and depicting them as though the reflected Mormon orthodoxy which, of course, they don't. The opening premise of this thread still stands, which is this: that Mormons do not deny the Christianity of other faiths.

In general I would agree, except for the "well read" part. The evidence I have seen from his posts is scant and inconclusive.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Jeff K.

[thesometimesaint]

Xander:

That is my point. Any member can be as orthodox as they come as believe either.

I'm familiar with all the changes, and there was no reference to any particular religion in the Temple Ceremony. There was an oblique reference to some of the ideas of some churches, but again rather oblique.

So you're an equal opportunity Atheist. It doesn't bother me that you are, but it is still a better idea to ask me what I believe than telling me what I believe.

I read the citation and it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Heathen is a term that exist long before LDS did, and it has always refered to nonChristian people(s). Read a dictionary some time. So it is entirely inappropriate to say that LDS are NonChristians.

What quip? That the early Christians were called Saints, or that you need to read a dictionary? BTW I have a Websters unabridged by my desk I'm typing at right now, and I use it.

Is Joseph Smith early enough for you. He never once expressed contempt for Christians, though he was often the recepient of their abuse and eventual murder.

I'm a Mormon(Though I prefer Latter-day Saint), and well familiar with the tenets and teachings of my religion. I don't need you to tell me what they are.

I exercise it every day. Further raising your arm to the square is also used in the court system in this country. I testified in court many times. There's not much about priesthood there.

Nope. Going on 61 years ago my mother gave birth to a bouncing baby boy; Me.

[followerofemmanuel]

Unless "responding" includes, without fail, baptism by proper Priesthood authority (as demonstrated in Acts 18:24~19:7), salvation cannot come at all, according to biblical scripture.

Lehi

So would you say then that this is the LDS's Church's position? thanks for your reply

[Jeff K.]

Jeff k, what are you suggesting?

Are you suggesting that the persons quoted by Xander did not really mean what they said?

I bet historical context is over your head too eh?

Hopefully that cleared it up for you.

[Jaybear]

It may not have occured to your narrow mind, but attribution doesn't necessitate hyperlinks. You can provide attribution without a link, and thereby avoid rank hypocrasy. But, I fear that saying this will only invite more of your anti-social bial.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Technically, Wade, you invited an anti-social response when you called Kevin narrow minded.

Seem to have hit a nerve. Will remember where it is next time when I want to amused.

Not a mystery. People that take pride in their scholarship, usually take offense when presented with baseless accusations.

Jeff:I note he avoids discussing in historical context.

Then, you must have missed this sentence:

Of course the list goes on and on until we get to McConkie and then the Church wakes up and realizes the need to embrace a more toned down approach if it hopes to thrive in post-civil rights pro-tolerance societies.

If that is the only basis for your allegations that the quotes were out of context, then you owe Xander an apology.

[Jeff K.]

Jaybear missed the historical context of the post too. One wonders if they are merely blind or choose not to see?

[LeSellers]

So would you say then that this is the LDS's Church's position?

Since it's the biblical position, of course it's the LDS position.

Lehi

[frankenstein]

I bet historical context is over your head too eh?

Hopefully that cleared it up for you.

what is clear is that you are evading the issue. And according to you, from your own posts, evasion = dishonesty

Are you suggesting that the persons who Xander quoted did not mean what is quoted?

Are you able to provide the context that clarifies any of the statements xander posted?

[Jeff K.]

Could any of these imagined scholars come up with some choice cherry picked quotes of what other chuches and political leaders were saying about Latter-day Saints? Or perhaps that type of research is beyond them?

Boggs extermination order was in many quarters celebrated by these same churches

One wonders what that said about the environment and if such an environment opened up a greater possibility of speaking in angry defense? Nah, I think it beyond both Jaybear and Xander. Anti Mormons seem to be stuck in only one gear. I would guess it to be first gear. The gear whines alot, makes a great deal of noice, but doesn't move very fast.

Yes, heh heh, first gear.

.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Jeff K.

[Jaybear]

Could any of these imagined scholars come up with some choice cherry picked quotes of what other chuches and political leaders were saying about Latter-day Saints? Or perhaps that type of research is beyond them?

One wonders what that said about the environment and if such an environment opened up a greater possibility of speaking in angry defense? Nah, I think it beyond both Jaybear and Xander. Anti Mormons seem to be stuck in only one gear. I would guess it to be first gear. The gear whines alot, makes a great deal of noice, but doesn't move very fast.

Yes, heh heh, first gear.

.

What does any of that have to do with accusing Xander of presenting a quote "out of context"?

To be charitable, I will have to assume that you just don't know what it means to accuse someone of presenting a quote out of context.

I suggest you look it up before accusing anyone of doing so.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Jaybear

[Jeff K.]

What does any of that have to do with accusing Xander of presenting a quote "out of context"?

A great deal. Try putting on you critical thinking hat. It will help get you out of first gear.

And, your kind of charity nobody needs.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Jeff K.

[frankenstein]

A great deal. Try putting on you critical thinking hat. It will help get you out of first gear.

And, your kind of charity nobody needs.

Are you capable, and if you are capable, of providing the context, will you provide the context? Or will you just evade (be dishonest about) the claims you made.

------------

I think once LDS people openly admit that past leaders made statements directed at other religions and that those statements could be seen as offensive; then the LDS will have made great leap towards better relations with other religions.

Edited February 10, 2012 by frankenstein

[Jaybear]

A great deal. Try putting on you critical thinking hat. It will help get you out of first gear.

And, your kind of charity nobody needs.

Sigh. All right, lesson time.

Out of context: Quote as presented does not accurately reflect intent of speaker.

Historical context helps explain why the speaker said what he said.

Example :

Obama: "John McCain actually said 'we don't want to talk about the economy.'"

Historical context: Economy under Bush in a freefall.

Out of context:

Romney 2012: "Obama said 'we don't want to talk about the economy.'".

As noted, accusing someone of presenting a quote out of context is akin to calling them unethical.

Attempting to excuse the quote by offering historical context is akin to apologetic spin.

Accusing someone of presenting a quote out of context, when you have no basis to do, is in my book, unethical. As I am sure you consider yourself a moral, ethical person, perhaps you should consider apologizing to Xander for your unfounded claim.

[Jeff K.]

Sigh lesson time

Historical context.

Kill the Jews! Is it Godwins law or Roman response to rebellion..... think about it.

Which is the more reasonable response?

Always good to exchange the tinfoil for critical thinking. Tinfoil doesn't get you out of first gear.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Jeff K.

[Jeff K.]

I appreciate the fact that you two are sooo into me. What an ego boost.

[Hestia]

This has degenerated into personal bickering and it stops now or thread gets closed.

[Hestia]

Plagiarize from other websites? Are you friggin kidding me?? You sit here on a forum that prevents people from referencing certain websites because they consider them "anti-Mormon" but then when I present information from such websites without providing the referenced link, you claim I've plagiarized someone!!

It is a rule that you must provide references and if you can't because of content then I suggest you find some different sources.

[Scott Lloyd]

This has degenerated into personal bickering and it stops now or thread gets closed.

When Graham shows up, there goes the neighborhood.

You can close it now, as far as I'm concerned.

[frankenstein]

When Graham shows up, there goes the neighborhood.

You can close it now, as far as I'm concerned.

Xander posted statements from LDS leaders, said statements are less than charitable towards Christendom, Jeff k retorts with a typical response of "out of context" - yet Jeff is unwilling to substantiate his own claims. Xander posts things which many here either want to outright dismiss or those people will well posion and never address the substance of a claim. Xander should not and is not responsible for the lack of decorum or ethical behaviour from other posters who are offended by what xander presented.

What I discovered is that many of quotes posted by xander come from journal and discourse, despite the source it does not take away that past lds leaders made harsh statements.

--------------------

As for the article, seems a well thought piece. I suppose he is correct in that LDS consider all Christian religions apostate. The missionary discussions I used the apostasy was the 3rd discussion.

Not sure why that Rev would say we don't consider nonlds Christian, especially given that the lds seek for nonlds to consider lds Christian.

Maybe the lds authored response should include we do consider you Christian and we consider you apostate, we ask to be considered Christian aswell

Edited February 11, 2012 by frankenstein

[frankenstein]

"the devil could invent no better engine to spread his work that the Christianity of the nineteenth century" JOD volume 6 page 167 (the quote presented by xander which contains this quoted part, is a distortion, civilitation is referred to as corrupt as hell)

Apostle Heber C. Kimball once said, "Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth ... JoD volume 5 page 89

Edited February 10, 2012 by frankenstein

[Mudcat]

Unless "responding" includes, without fail, baptism by proper Priesthood authority (as demonstrated in Acts 18:24~19:7), salvation cannot come at all, according to biblical scripture.

Lehi

A pity for the Ethiopian eunuch Philip dunked .

[Gervin]

A pity for the Ethiopian eunuch Philip dunked .

& the sinful woman in Luke 7:50