Calling Foul

[Storm Rider]

When I read this article: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/29/9086125-gay-softball-team-accused-of-cheating-with-straight-ringers-given-trophy. I had to laugh. The constant barrage of accusations against the LDS Church for condemning acting on SSA is silly and dimwitted. No answer is good enough except for the Church to lay down and admit the a Gay lifestyle is fully in keeping with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is just too funny that when gays are in control they immediately begin to exercise their own standards of what is gay enough! Maybe one day they will look in the mirror and find out they are their own worst enemy. Much more pitiful, is the realization that the carnal is their worst enemy for all mortality.

[california boy]

When I read this article: http://usnews.msnbc....rs-given-trophy. I had to laugh. The constant barrage of accusations against the LDS Church for condemning acting on SSA is silly and dimwitted. No answer is good enough except for the Church to lay down and admit the a Gay lifestyle is fully in keeping with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is just too funny that when gays are in control they immediately begin to exercise their own standards of what is gay enough! Maybe one day they will look in the mirror and find out they are their own worst enemy. Much more pitiful, is the realization that the carnal is their worst enemy for all mortality.

You are going to have to explain what you are laughing about. How does this relate to the Mormon church??

[Pahoran]

Although I do agree that there is some humour in this story, it looks a bit like sitcom or even stand-up humour. One can imagine a skit in which the league administrators accost the team's coach: "You can't tell me that pitcher is gay; he doesn't throw like a girl!"

But for once I agree with California Boy. This topic doesn't appear to have any relevance to LDS apologetics, or Mormon things in general. Why is it here?

Regards,

Pahoran

[selek1]

When I read this article: http://usnews.msnbc....rs-given-trophy. I had to laugh. The constant barrage of accusations against the LDS Church for condemning acting on SSA is silly and dimwitted. No answer is good enough except for the Church to lay down and admit the a Gay lifestyle is fully in keeping with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is just too funny that when gays are in control they immediately begin to exercise their own standards of what is gay enough! Maybe one day they will look in the mirror and find out they are their own worst enemy. Much more pitiful, is the realization that the carnal is their worst enemy for all mortality.

It's true that the article has nothing to do with Mormonism per se, but it is most useful because it (and CaliforniaBoy's response) amply demonstrate the pantywaist "run-and-tell-the-teacher" mentality all too common among the militant homophiles.

"If you don't agree with me, I'll find someone to MAKE you agree with me- on any pretext whatever."

Baseball game goes against you? It's not because the other team played better, it's because two of their players weren't "gay enough." Whine to the umpire.

The people of California shoot down an unpopular gay-marriage dictat? Whine to the courts.

The people of California pass legislation you don't like? Use a radical minority among the courts to through out the rule of law.

The Mormons say things you don't like? Use the courts to strip them of their Constitutional rights.

Gay suicide rates three times higher than among heteroes of the same age? Blame "homophobia" and get the courts to muzzle any criticism.

Rates of domestic abuse five times higher than among comparable heteroes? Get the courts and academia to disparage and silence any and all research that lokks/sounds/smells/critical of the gay lifestyle.

Someone dares utter the truth about the gay proclivity towards pederasty? Cry defamation and sue!

Pro-marriage advocates tell truths you find inconvenient? Use the media to demonize them and the courts to silence them.

A man decides to abandon the gay lifestyle (and you, his gay lover) and return to his wife and family? Hound him mercilessly with harassing phone calls, e-mails, and nuisance suits until he either capitulates or commits suicide.

A poster speaks truths you don't like on a message board? Whine to the mods.

Its an on-going and thorough-going pattern seen time and time again.

The inability of the radical homophiles to "man-up" and take responsibility for their own shortcomings and the fact that life isn't obligates to give them everything single thing they want is their second-greatest moral failing.

To be forever in need of someone to protect you and enforce your will on others is to render yourself permanently immature and impotent.

[Pahoran]

It's true that the article has nothing to do with Mormonism per se, but it is most useful because it (and CaliforniaBoy's response) amply demonstrate the pantywaist "run-and-tell-the-teacher" mentality all too common among the militant homophiles.

"If you don't agree with me, I'll find someone to MAKE you agree with me- on any pretext whatever."

Baseball game goes against you? It's not because the other team played better, it's because two of their players weren't "gay enough." Whine to the umpire.

The people of California shoot down an unpopular gay-marriage dictat? Whine to the courts.

The people of California pass legislation you don't like? Use a radical minority among the courts to through out the rule of law.

The Mormons say things you don't like? Use the courts to strip them of their Constitutional rights.

Gay suicide rates three times higher than among heteroes of the same age? Blame "homophobia" and get the courts to muzzle any criticism.

Rates of domestic abuse five times higher than among comparable heteroes? Get the courts and academia to disparage and silence any and all research that lokks/sounds/smells/critical of the gay lifestyle.

Someone dares utter the truth about the gay proclivity towards pederasty? Cry defamation and sue!

Pro-marriage advocates tell truths you find inconvenient? Use the media to demonize them and the courts to silence them.

A man decides to abandon the gay lifestyle (and you, his gay lover) and return to his wife and family? Hound him mercilessly with harassing phone calls, e-mails, and nuisance suits until he either capitulates or commits suicide.

A poster speaks truths you don't like on a message board? Whine to the mods.

Its an on-going and thorough-going pattern seen time and time again.

The inability of the radical homophiles to "man-up" and take responsibility for their own shortcomings and the fact that life isn't obligates to give them everything single thing they want is their second-greatest moral failing.

To be forever in need of someone to protect you and enforce your will on others is to render yourself permanently immature and impotent.

Even if all those observations are true, nevertheless the question remains: This is a Mormon apologetics forum. Neither the Church, nor any LDS teaching, nor even any individual Mormons were mentioned in the news item. So is it really relevant to us?

Here is where I see that it might have some relevance: If there was a thread going on about the "gimme boys" trying to use the court system as their cat's paw against the Church, and some of the same individuals were involved in the two cases, this might be worth mentioning as an illustration of how they abuse the system. But I can't see such a thread, can you?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Daniel2]

Then said Jesus, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

[Storm Rider]

I posted it because of the plethora of whining that is done by gay individuals on this forum. Does it have anything to do with the LDS Church or Mormons in general. Not directly, but in an oblique manner it pertains to the arguments we see posted here. This is a group of utter hypocrisy. There is one thing only that they are interested in and that is forcing the rest of society to accept their perversion as normal, to force everyone else to accept them and what they do as "right". They are not interested in fairness or equality; they seek special rights. "I am gay, woe is me, I should be treated equally regardless of the thousands of sexual encounters I have." "You should overlook what I do and treat me as a sane, safe, moral individual."

As an aside, this is "in the News" section. If you haven't noticed a lot of the topics here have nothing to do with apologetics. Interesting that you sweet boys want to cover up the negative so quickly. I would say that is a typical response for this group of individuals. I can't say I am surprised.

[Daniel2]

I imagine every minority group that finds itself ostracized from the "norm" of society faces both a series of similar challenges resulting from social disapproval, and challenges which are unique to the identifying factor that distinguishes said group from other minority groups.

As gays and lesbians, we certainly have our own share of struggles. Finding balance between resolving our own emotional baggage that results from the differences of growing up gay in a predominantly straight culture (including the evolving social attitudes, as well as increasingly diminishing, though once life-threatening punishments for gay behaviors--still a reality in many countries worldwide) is a long process.

I would certainly agree that all to often, people (whether straight or gay) who's life experiences have led to emotional challenges get stuck in "victim" mode (however understandable the emotionally-disruptive catalysts have been).

Several gay friends recommended to me an excellent--and refreshingly, brutally honest--book for gay men who seem to get stuck in an "I'm a victim" feedback loop, and want to reclaim their own sense of responsibility and personal power, rather than continue to surrender themselves to any of the unique factors of self-victimization that may result from homosexuality's unique emotional challenges. The title of the book is called The Velvet Rage: Overcoming the Pain of Growing Up Gay in a Straight Man's World.

Here's how one blogger describes the book:

A friend of mine recently commented that she thought my comments and conversations about being gay indicated that my sexuality was becoming my whole identity. I couldn't disagree more. I have always held the belief that sexuality is a facet of one's life - not one's complete self-being - nor should it be. My position is that living as an out individual (as much as I can) I am eager to learn more about this aspect of life in which I find myself. To this end, I have been reading as much as I can on the subject.

I just finished The Velvet Rage: Overcoming the Pain of Growing Up Gay in a Straight Man's World by Alan Downs, PhD. I have found this to be perhaps the most helpful and profound book on the subject I have yet to read. From a psychological standpoint, Downs examines the shame and pain that permeate the lives of gay men and the destructive patterns and choices that gay men often make. He states "Yes, we have more sexual partners in a lifetime than other groups of people. At the same time, we also have among the highest rates of depression and suicide, not to mention sexually transmitted diseases. As a group, we tend to be more emotionally expressive than other men, and yet our relationships are far shorter on average than those of straight men. We have more expendable income, more expensive houses, more fashionable cars, clothes, furniture than just about any other cultural group. But are we truly happier?"

I, like the author, would submit that the answer would be a resounding NO. As Downs points out, the gay community is truly a wounded lot. In essence, young gay men have no role models in the home, no one to guide them through feelings of insecurity. They know deep down that they are different, but as young people do, they don't view that "difference" in a positive, healthy light. They come to believe that they are inherently flawed, unlovable, second-class citizens. With this incorrect thinking comes shame followed closely by anger, which, in turn, is directed inward.

The book is broken down into three stages of development for the gay man. The first stage is "Overwhelmed by Shame". Usually this stage begins in childhood. The feelings of being unloved and flawed prevent the self from developing a healthy emotional state as it would in a "normal" straight boy. Not just children -- adults can find themselves in this stage as well. The individual learns to fake being straight. Essentially, he is searching for and receiving a false rather than authentic validation that ultimately does not satisfy his need for authenticity. Inauthentic validation leads to rage. The author likens the enraged gay man unto a trapped animal - cornered, trembling, and snarling. Thus begins the downward spiral. The rage pushes people away from him, and with them goes the validation he so desperately craves. So he hides his anger in a "velvet glove" and becomes for all the world to see, the gracious friend and lover he aspires to be. Yet he remains extremely sensitive to the slightest invalidation which is met with his swift rage.

The shame stage is followed by the compensation of shame. Generally, this appears to be the longest (and for me, the most fascinating) stage of development. At this point, the gay man is usually, but not always, out. Being out does not necessarily man that one's identity crisis has been solved. Usually, far from it. The gay man will compensate for this toxic shame by becoming the very best at whatever it is that he does in order to reduce the feelings of inferiority that continue to plague him. It becomes a quest of acquisition: houses, cars, art, perfectly chiseled body, worldly sophistication, and usually numerous sexual encounters with beautiful men. Of course, these never satisfy as the validation that the gay man receives is still inauthentic. Eventually, the trappings of the success that he so desperately chased will leave him empty and unsatisfied and the vicious cycle of more, more, more, more continues.

The final stage, "Discovering Authenticity", proves to be the ultimate goal of a gay man's life. Usually this stage comes later in life, as the gay man becomes comfortable with his sexuality and learns by trial and error that all he had been striving for is empty. Only then he begins to search for real meaning, purpose, and integrity. While this is the best stage of a gay man's life, it is also the least visible. He is more likely to withdraw from the clubs and social scene because he doesn't need it to fulfill him. The ironic thing is that the contented man is enjoying life at home while his younger, conflicted counterparts who need to see and be around him will, more than likely, not get the opportunity.

I have to say, I read this book over a period of just a couple of days and was absolutely riveted. Honestly, I can say that I bumped into myself on quite a few pages. There were several "A-Ha" moments where I realized - THAT'S why I do what I do. I would tend to think that a lot of the information found in the book would be directed at middle-aged gay men, but I would think that the younger one is that reads this, the better chance he would have of saving himself a lot of heartache.

For me, the most important aspect of this book is that it advocates the mentality that gay men are NOT victims and should not assign blame to others for the situations in which they find themselves. Rather, the author encourages gay men to make active and positive choices that enhances their lives rather than bad choices that will damage their lives and ruin their self-esteem. He even provides a list of real, practical steps to becoming an authentic individual.

I know I am going my copy to one of my very best friends. I hope it opens his eyes as much as it did mine. Needless to say, this would be an excellent choice for a book club as it just screams to be discussed. I found my copy on Amazon. Last check, the price had been reduced to $8.96. It is a surprisingly easy read and, I promise, you will feel like you are listening to a warm, caring, non-judgemental friend. I can only say, do yourself a favor - read this book and take it to heart.

For anyone who may be struggling with that victim mentality, I'd heartily recommend this book, as well as working with one's own therapist.

Even as we resolve our own personal issues and empower ourselves to grow beyond the role of a "social victim," however, we shouldn't feel compelled to submit to others' all-too-often inflammatory attempts to return us to that shame. It is not inappropriate to roll up our sleeves and work towards the same civil rights, responsibilities, benefits, protections, and government-recognized status for our selves, our marriages, our families, and our children that our straight brothers and sisters currently enjoy.

I disagree with Storm Rider's and Selek1's characterizations of gays and lesbians, as a whole, because it appears they're focused on gay men stuck in "phase two," and mistakenly imply that all or most gays and lesbians are or will always be stuck in in that phase. Ironically, the may not realize their words only serve to fan the flames of shame for such flamboyantly gay men and women, rather than diffuse that shame and help such individuals find healing, maturity, and growth into the third phase. Even though I disagree with them, however, I support SR's and S1's right to offer their view, and am grateful for the opportunity to also share my feelings and experience on what I believe is an important topic.

My view,

Daniel2

[thesometimesaint]

Daniel2:

I agree. While I do not support SSM there is nothing in my beliefs that would condone or authorize the discrimination against or violence to a homosexual person nor couple. Our job as Chritians is to help carry their loads, to lighten their burdens. Not add to them.

Live long and prosper my friend.

[california boy]

I posted it because of the plethora of whining that is done by gay individuals on this forum. Does it have anything to do with the LDS Church or Mormons in general. Not directly, but in an oblique manner it pertains to the arguments we see posted here. This is a group of utter hypocrisy. There is one thing only that they are interested in and that is forcing the rest of society to accept their perversion as normal, to force everyone else to accept them and what they do as "right". They are not interested in fairness or equality; they seek special rights. "I am gay, woe is me, I should be treated equally regardless of the thousands of sexual encounters I have." "You should overlook what I do and treat me as a sane, safe, moral individual."

As an aside, this is "in the News" section. If you haven't noticed a lot of the topics here have nothing to do with apologetics. Interesting that you sweet boys want to cover up the negative so quickly. I would say that is a typical response for this group of individuals. I can't say I am surprised.

It kinda sounds like you posted this article as an excuse to rant about gays. Do you really think that is appropriate for this Mormon Board?