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In The Aftermath...


Zakuska

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So remember when everyone was arguing over Proposition 8 and everyone was saying.... This is a slippery slop... and the next thing we know people will be suing and trying to reinstitute Polygamy?

Well the slop has slipped..

Polygamist family from Sister Wives show suing Utah State

The polygamist household in The Learning Channel reality show "Sister Wives" has submitted a lawsuit against the state of Utah, challenging anti-bigamy statues that make polygamy illegal. The lawsuit holds that bigamy laws breach the family's right to religious freedom, and they want an injunction issued against any possible prosecution for violating anti-bigamy and polygamy laws. Source of article - Polygamist family from Sister Wives show taking Utah to court by Newsytype.com.

Claims of why suit should pass

The Brown household, featured on reality television show "Sister Wives," is suing the state of Utah, as reported by the International Business Times, to prevent

prosecution against family patriarch Kody Brown and his wives. Many Utah polygamists end up being charged with bigamy. Due to fear of these same criminal charges hitting the Browns, the household moved last year from Utah to Nevada. Now the household wants to move back to Utah. The Christian Science Monitor states that bigamy is an enormous problem. It is a third-degree felony in the state. The family is hoping the suit will give them an injunction against criminal prosecution. It states the branch of the Mormon church that the Browns belong to practices polygamy making it a First Amendment right to do so.

Can Utah get involved?

Brown's lawyer said that because heterosexual relationships involving more than one partner aren't illegal, polygamy shouldn't be either. Two suits similar against Utah were not successful, whether they were in federal court or state court. The Browns don't currently face any charges, though authorities in their hometown of Lehi, Utah, were looking into filing charges after the family started starring in the show on TLC. Each state views bigamy differently, but essentially the offense is entering into more than one marriage. All of Kody Brown's unions are "spiritual," he states, as he is only legally married to one of his wives. The suit contends that as the relationships are consensual and are only official in the Fundamentalist Mormon church the household is part of, the state thus has no business interfering, as reported by Courthouse News. Some polygamists are able to get away with it in Utah. Several suggest this is due to the state's involvement with the LDS church in history. There are some Fundamentalist Mormons that will marry young girls and older men together. This is what happened to Fundamentalist Mormon leader and convicted sex offender Warren Jeffs.

Other cases of bigamy occurring

As reported by UPI, a male was charged in October with bigamy in Florida when his wife discovered he had married another woman in Las Vegas. Since Florida only recognizes bigamy if the second marriage happens in Florida, the suit was dismissed this month. The Virginia Pilot Online reports that a Portsmouth, Va., male got convicted of bigamy in June as he married his wife without first divorcing the woman he was married to but had been separated from for years. He could face 20 years. Bobbi Ann Finley, according to the Daily Mail, was convicted of bigamy after marrying 14 different men in the military over a period of almost 20 years. She used the legal spouse status to take all their money after leaving them.

http://www.dailygrail.com/stream/2011/7/Polygamist-family-Sister-Wives-show-suing-Utah-State

All I can say is we tried to tell ya so.

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I agree with TSS. As i understand it, polygamists aren't trying to make the government recognize polygamous marriages, they're just trying to make it so they can live a polygamous lifestyle without threat of being arrrested.

I don't see any good reason NOT to do that, just like i would never want gay people to be arrested for living with a same sex partner and calling it a marriage. I don't think the law should regulate what two or more people want to call their relationship and that's exactly what it's trying to regulate with anti-polygamy laws.

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I agree with TSS. As i understand it, polygamists aren't trying to make the government recognize polygamous marriages, they're just trying to make it so they can live a polygamous lifestyle without threat of being arrrested.

I don't see any good reason NOT to do that, just like i would never want gay people to be arrested for living with a same sex partner and calling it a marriage. I don't think the law should regulate what two or more people want to call their relationship and that's exactly what it's trying to regulate with anti-polygamy laws.

Amen... I beleive the Authoritarian nature of the US government and the persecution and witch hunts they perpotrated against my Ancestors, are being exposed for what they were. Anti-Constitutional.

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I think its funny that if a man has a mistress the law is powerless to do anything criminal but if a man has a "spiritual wife" he suddenly becomes a criminal.

When we have to involve a third party in our most intimate relationships to arbitrate. We have problems.

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So remember when everyone was arguing over Proposition 8 and everyone was saying.... This is a slippery slop... and the next thing we know people will be suing and trying to reinstitute Polygamy?

Well the slop has slipped..

http://www.dailygrai...uing-Utah-State

All I can say is we tried to tell ya so.

And Mormons have a problem with this becaues WHY???

Is your objection because Mormons couldn't practice polygamy in the 1800's so now they don't want anyone else to practice it? Or that they changed their doctrine at the turn of the century so now they want to make sure everyone in America is forced to practice their current doctrine? Is the Mormon church now going to mount a political campaign against theise people as well??

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So remember when everyone was arguing over Proposition 8 and everyone was saying.... This is a slippery slop... and the next thing we know people will be suing and trying to reinstitute Polygamy?

Well the slop has slipped..

http://www.dailygrai...uing-Utah-State

All I can say is we tried to tell ya so.

you told who what? During the Federal Trial about prop 8, the Defenders of Prop 8, presented David Blankenhorn - who the defenders consider an expert. Blankenhorn, stated that polygamy fits within the "one man one woman" rule for the definition of marriage. So you hardly have any reason to gloat, since it is understood that Prop 8 or rather a "traditional definition of marriage" allows for polygamy.

Perry v. Schwarnager - Day 12 - january 27, 2010

Testimony of David Blankenhorn present as "expert witness" for the Defense of Prop 8.

first set of Q&A starts on page 45 of the Transcript

16 Q. And I accept that point, okay.

17 Now, what are the three main rules that you believe

18 define marriage?

19 [David Blankenhorne - expert witness for the Defense of Prop 8]A. Well, the first is what you might call the rule of

20 opposites. That was the man -- what is the customary

21 man/woman basis of marriage.

22 Q. And second?

23 [David Blankenhorne] A. Two, that is, marriage is two people.

24 Q. Okay. And the third?

25 [David Blankenhorne] A. It's a sexual relationship.

Second set of Q&A page 65 and 66.

Q. Yes. Is it your view that that man who has married one

23 wife, and then another wife, and then another wife, and then

24 another wife, and then another wife, and now has five wives,

25 and they are all his wives at the same time, that that

[page break]

1 marriage is consistent with your rule of two?

2 And that is a yes or no question.

3 [David Blankenhorn] A. I concur with Bronislaw Malinowski, and others, who say

4 that that is consistent with the two rule of marriage.

Secondly, according the article in the OP at least two other people sued unsuccessfully over polygamy, when did those suits take place?

Third, the gist of the Brown's claim is that he is only "married" by law to one person, but he happens to live with other women he calls his "wives", his claim has nothing to do with Prop 8; in fact, there is no indication that the Brown's are relying on the Walker decision in filing their suit.

to summarize:

there is no connection between Prop 8 and the Browns;

The Defenders of Prop 8 state that polygamy fits within the one man one woman marriage definition;

Claiming "told you so" is baseless.

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Of course I understand that a revelation would be required for the church to practice polygamy again. My comment was more directed at Mormons being horrifiec if polygamy became legal in the United States. As the op stated, first gay marriage, and then horror of all horrors, it would open the gates to polygamy being legal as if that would be a bad thing for a church that once embraced it. I can see other christian churches being horrified by that thought, but Mormons??? Why would they be horrified.

California Boy:

We simply say that it is illegal in the US to practice polygamy. If the laws were changed to make it legal we still wouldn't practice it without commandment from God.

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I agree with the lawsuit..... After all, if any other perverted relationship is legally allowed, there's no reason Plural ones shouldn't be.

Of course, morally I don't support it, just like I don't support any other immoral relationship not given of God and right. But, to state people don't have the right to do what they want to do in their private relationships, who am I to say otherwise?

Their relationships have no influence on mine. Of course, in contrast to gay marriage, they are trying to co-opt marriage itself, instead of creating their own definition of it, i.e. "Gayarriage". Plural Marriages or Polygamy have a separate definition and is a separate institution thus doesn't really bother me. I know it's not a standard marriage. Gay marriages are trying to make them standard marriages, instead of a separate institution/class.

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Just Curious. Why would a Mormon consider polygamy perverted and immoral? Is it just because God currently is not asking his church to practice it right now? Would it instantly change to being moral if God commanded members to start practicing polygamy again? Is all that God commands only moral when God commands it and is suddenly immoral when God does not command something? Has there always been only one moral way to marry?? Any thoughts?

I agree with the lawsuit..... After all, if any other perverted relationship is legally allowed, there's no reason Plural ones shouldn't be.

Of course, morally I don't support it, just like I don't support any other immoral relationship not given of God and right. But, to state people don't have the right to do what they want to do in their private relationships, who am I to say otherwise?

Their relationships have no influence on mine. Of course, in contrast to gay marriage, they are trying to co-opt marriage itself, instead of creating their own definition of it, i.e. "Gayarriage". Plural Marriages or Polygamy have a separate definition and is a separate institution thus doesn't really bother me. I know it's not a standard marriage. Gay marriages are trying to make them standard marriages, instead of a separate institution/class.

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Is polygamy something prophesied to happen again? See "7 women shall cleave unto one man". Secondly if it is prophesied to return, wouldn't polygamy need to be legal by man's laws for the Church to practice it by Gods laws?

Also zakuska, what were hoping to accomplish with this thread; as no one has supported your orignal purpose and the evidence does not support a connection between ssm and polygamy

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Just Curious. Why would a Mormon consider polygamy perverted and immoral? Is it just because God currently is not asking his church to practice it right now? Would it instantly change to being moral if God commanded members to start practicing polygamy again? Is all that God commands only moral when God commands it and is suddenly immoral when God does not command something? Has there always been only one moral way to marry?? Any thoughts?

The answer is yes.

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Plural Marriages or Polygamy have a separate definition and is a separate institution thus doesn't really bother me. I know it's not a standard marriage. Gay marriages are trying to make them standard marriages, instead of a separate institution/class.

What is the separate defintion for plural marriage? It was suggested by those defending prop 8 that polygamy fits within a one man one rule/defintion of marriage.

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So remember when everyone was arguing over Proposition 8 and everyone was saying.... This is a slippery slop... and the next thing we know people will be suing and trying to reinstitute Polygamy?

Well the slop has slipped..

http://www.dailygrai...uing-Utah-State

All I can say is we tried to tell ya so.

Not surprised.

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Not surprised.

Pa Pa, there is not a connection between the advocates for ssm and Browns suit to be free from legal reprisal for bigamy/polygamy.

The only connection there between bigamy/polygamy and ssm, is that those who opposed to ssm and defending "traditional marriage", traditional marriage is by US and western society tradition is non-plural or adulterous, were the one suggesting that polygamy is "traditional marriage".

So really, its egg on the face of those saying "told you so" because it is the "told you so" sayers, who support polygamy.

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Just Curious. Why would a Mormon consider polygamy perverted and immoral? Is it just because God currently is not asking his church to practice it right now? Would it instantly change to being moral if God commanded members to start practicing polygamy again? Is all that God commands only moral when God commands it and is suddenly immoral when God does not command something? Has there always been only one moral way to marry?? Any thoughts?

Haven't heard what others have responded to this, but I will say I don't find it perverted or immoral. There are LDS who regard the episode of plural marriage in the Church to be something God put up with, rather than commanded, and some who though faithful may regard it as something the early leaders did of themselves rather than were commanded. I have seen this expressed in this very forum by members who come off as very faithful and believing LDS. One, cinepro, stated that he and his wife would leave the Church if the Church brought it back. I suspect there are many others like them. And, should push come to shove, cinepro and you other likeminded Mormons, as much as I love you as brothers and sisters, don't let the screen door hit you on the way out. I wouldn't want it to leave an unsightly mark on you.

I get the impression that as long as the Lord doesn't require too much of us, some of us are happy enough to obey, but the minute the Lord asks for more than this, we're out of here. I suspect that in the latterer of the latter days these members will leave the Church in droves because things will become waaaay too inconvenient for them. And that will be good.

I hope I don't come off as brusque. I mean it in the friendliest possible way. :pirate:

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Just Curious. Why would a Mormon consider polygamy perverted and immoral? Is it just because God currently is not asking his church to practice it right now? Would it instantly change to being moral if God commanded members to start practicing polygamy again? Is all that God commands only moral when God commands it and is suddenly immoral when God does not command something? Has there always been only one moral way to marry?? Any thoughts?

Polygamy is immoral first for the same reason it's always been immoral. Marriage is to be between one man and one woman.

Second, yes, it's also immoral when not authorized, because as the first, without authorization, any other action is immoral.

Polygamy is only moral when authorized of God. However, to be clear, if there are cultures in which Polygamy is the standard, then those practicing it wouldn't necessarily be under the same condemnation, as long of course as it was done righteously. But, those who have access to know better, it is immoral.

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The Utah State Constitution forbids polygamy:

UTAH CONSTITUTION

Article 3 Section The following ordinance shall be irrevocable without the consent of the United States and the people of this State:

[Religious toleration -- Polygamy forbidden.]

First: -- Perfect toleration of religious sentiment is guaranteed. No inhabitant of this State shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship; but polygamous or plural marriages are forever prohibited. .

So it appears this will have to be overcome before it can be "legal" in the state of Utah, and the "consent of the United States and the People of Utah" will have to come first.

I don't see that happening ever. Even if the "people of the United States" become tolerant and magnanimous, I doubt the people of Utah would ever vote to legalize it unless the Church supported it. And unless the Church was planning on bringing it back, I don't think they'd ever support it, and I don't think the Church will ever bring it back.

So there.

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The Utah State Constitution forbids polygamy:

So it appears this will have to be overcome before it can be "legal" in the state of Utah, and the "consent of the United States and the People of Utah" will have to come first.

I don't see that happening ever. Even if the "people of the United States" become tolerant and magnanimous, I doubt the people of Utah would ever vote to legalize it unless the Church supported it. And unless the Church was planning on bringing it back, I don't think they'd ever support it, and I don't think the Church will ever bring it back.

So there.

That part of the State Constitution could be found UnConstitutional and thus nullified without the vote of the US or the majority vote of the peoples of Utah.

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I agree. It seems like a lot of mormons have sympathy for polygamists, even though they believe the practice is condemned by God.

I don't think it is a sympathy for polygamists but rather a dislike for government intervention.

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