The Holy Ghost Is A Calling

[Tribunal]

Then I call into question your question: When the Holy Ghost obtains a body will It cease to be the Holy Ghost?

[thesometimesaint]

Tribunal:

Purely speculative that the Holy Ghost will be the last person to be born on this earth.

[Curtis Weber]

Of course being the Holy Ghost is a calling, just like being the Savior is a calling (Lucifer lobbied for the calling), the difference being only one person is called to be the Only Begotten of the Father while there is no mention of the Only Beghosted of the Father.

That more than one person may need to fill the calling or position of the Holy Ghost is inferred from Joseph Smith's statement that "the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies" (16 June 1844, Ehat & Cook, The Words of Joseph Smith, 382).

Clearly, unless the role or function of the Holy Ghost is to cease to exist at this time, a second person must be called to be the Holy Ghost while the original Holy Ghost occupies a physical body. And if the function were to cease at that time, how could that now-embodied spirit be born again of the Spirit, or is he the one exception to the rule, a rule from which even Christ could not be excepted?

[erichard]

Tribunal:

Purely speculative that the Holy Ghost will be the last person to be born on this earth.

Hi TSS,

The non-LDS 2BC "Word of the Lord" revelations revealing that Father Adam is the Holy Ghost, and that he, Michael/Adam, lived on a previous earth, as did Jehovah his Savior (the Father of Jesus) could be also considered speculation. The only sure way to discern by the Spirit speculation from revelation is, of course, prayer with a humble and open heart as prescribed by Moroni 10:4.

Richard

[erichard]

Then I call into question your question: When the Holy Ghost obtains a body will It cease to be the Holy Ghost?

When a Mormon Bishop is released from his calling why do they still call him Bishop?

I believe each earth has its own Holy Ghost. I do not believe there have been many different spirits acting in that capacity on our earth, basically just one.

At some point the Holy Ghost will be taken from the earth, and the restraint he held upon the wicked will be gone and they will turn to total wickedness until they destroy each other.

Richard

[mnn727]

the Holy Ghost is a calling

Boy and I thought being Ward Exec Secretary was a demanding calling <<shaking head>>

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

It saddens me that this thread has been left behind in the dusty wastelands that is page two.

Therefore: bumpity-bump!

[thesometimesaint]

erichard:

In LDS belief Adam has received his Exaultation, he has been Resurrected.

[Maidservant]

For what it is worth, I came to this idea on my own on the basis of reflecting on the idea that the Holy Ghost would need or want to be born. But I do not know or really care, if the same Holy Ghost lasts through all our time here, or has changed through what we experience as mortal history. I've never heard of this before, and thought I was the only one thinking it until I saw this thread heading.

I also tend to think that all of the spirits that help us (our ancestors, etc) are under the aegis of the Holy Ghost, officially organized, at least those who have their covenants. Thus when I am being supported by all or any of these holy spirits, then I am experiencing the companionship of the HOLY ghost (as opposed to all the unholy ones).

Also for what it's worth, I tend to see the Father and the Son as callings as well. The Godhead is a presidency instituted for the purpose of the mortal cycle we are progressing in. This presidency represents and leads an entire celestial society (of which we also were once a part of).

Whether or not they are callings (Father and Son and Holy Ghost), they are still a presidency, and as such, while I appreciate the great care and knowledge that Jeremy shared regarding heavenly Mother and/or God-female, I think that her existence, powers, and even a lot of the information Jeremy has, etc etc etc could not possibly be located or circumscribed by the place of the Holy Ghost. Not least, heavenly Mother has a body and is NOT spirit. As well, in terms of the type of presidency and priesthood that is organized in the Godhead, this is male (similar to bishopbrics and the First Presidency of the Church). Thirdly, the Holy Ghost has a very specific (read: limited) set of purposes to help us communicate, become clean, etc etc. These progressions that are the responsibility of the Holy Ghost start in Aaronic Priesthood and Telestial realms and in fact, even in the Court of Gentiles so to speak (since we know all men can be affected by and even carry the spirit with him (although we will never be "through" with the spirit in our progression). THUS . . . the keys that relate to heavenly Mother are not in the telestial kingdom, I would think. The keys for her are far beyond the presidency format we see in the church and Godhead. Thus while I understand that there is a heavenly Mother and all sorts of doctrine we may be recovering or awaiting on regarding her . . . finding her in the office of the Holy Ghost is a dry well. Of course, as with all celestial beings, she would be living by the spirit too . . .

Of course, absolutely none of this is Mormon doctrine, it is simply the condition of my thoughts and understanding at this time.

[K-2]

Hi TSS,

The non-LDS 2BC "Word of the Lord" revelations revealing that Father Adam is the Holy Ghost, and that he, Michael/Adam, lived on a previous earth, as did Jehovah his Savior (the Father of Jesus) could be also considered speculation. The only sure way to discern by the Spirit speculation from revelation is, of course, prayer with a humble and open heart as prescribed by Moroni 10:4.

Richard

I'm a little confused by that. Do you believe that he is the Father and Holy Ghost at the same time and thus occupies two positions in the godhead, or that he only is in one of the two positions at this time?

[AngelPalmoni]

Wow this looks like great fun I would love to say a few words on the Holy Ghost that are not going to make any sense to anyone!

You can find most of these ideas and references and scriptures on my blog, www.scripturalsecrets.blogspot.com

First of all the Holy Ghost is Perfect like Christ and Perfect like the Father! The God Head is perfect, some of us may think that God the Father was once a sinful man and this is simply not the case. God the Father was a Perfect Christ and our Perfect Christ will be The God the Father.

The Father and the Son

Ok... I guess I will start and jump into it with a Joseph Smith King Follett Discourse quote,

“What did Jesus do? Why; I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said.”

This is also shown in John 5:19-20,

5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise

5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Ok so if Christ creating the Atonement lying down his life and taking it up again is only doing that which the Father in Heaven did then God the Father Must have been the Christ of a Previous Plan of Salvation.

Michael is Second to the Holy One. It is Michael who will hold the keys of salvation under Christ. Michael cannot be the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost is Perfect and Michael is not. Doctrine & Covenants 78:16, 88:114-115, 107:55.

The same goes for Joseph Smith, he cannot be the Holy Ghost because he isn't perfect.

So God The Father was the Christ and our Christ will become God the Father... What about the Holy Ghost?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

This is the spiritual creation! God the Father right there is talking to Christ as an Intelligence, as a personage of spirit.

We all need to read that cool new book by Allen J Fletcher, call a Scriptural discussion on Light.

Now knowing that there was a Plan of Salvation Before this one, and that of course there is going to be a Plan of Salvation after this one, we know that there has to be unorganized intelligences ready to be organized into the next plan right now. We also know that because the Father was the Christ of a Previous Plan of Salvation that his Atonement had a Finite number of intelligences in it, also that there is a finite number of Sins. So this Plan of Salvation, with however many planets are in it only has a limited number of people. I might have just said the same thing a couple of times but lets keep going. I’m only talking about the 3 plans here, but, there are a infinite number of plan in both directions eternity to eternity.

Red = The Plan of Salvation before this one, Blue = Our Plan of Salvation, Green = The Next Plan of Salvation

<------------Eternity-------->

Darkness <--------------------OOO-> Light

Infinite Levels, Finite Level, Intelligence and Us

So there must be, and this is kind of mentioned in Abraham 3:19, Infinite Levels of Intelligences but with a Finite number of unorganized intelligence within each level. The level closest to be organized would have the most light where as the lower levels of intelligence in eternal progression would have less light but would gain more light after every Plan. This is my mathematics professor friend's idea, about a formula which graphs a line that closer and closer and closer to Zero but never touches it. It can be said the same for intelligences, since there are infinite levels with lesser and lesser light into darkness but never fully dark half distances of Light. Christ at the time of Abraham 3:19 was the most intelligent or the most light, the since there is a Christ within every Level of Intelligence then he would be the most Light and intelligent in his own Level.

I don’t know if anyone has followed me this far if not then it’s not essential to your salvation so don’t worry about it. You might even be way ahead of me I don’t know, but I will keep going.

So what are these intelligences? Do they Play a Role? Did we Do anything as an intelligence in the previous Plans of Salvation? What did Christ do? Did we Look to Christ as we to him now? You can come up with a lot of questions. But lets look at some scriptures and see where that goes.

So we know that at the Start of this Plan of Salvation we were unorganized intelligences. Then there was a council and a plan and then we were spiritually begotten and given Spirit Bodies.

Doctrine & Covenants 93:29, Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

We were intelligence or the Light of Truth, and we know that intelligence is eternal and cannot be created or made.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:23, "Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;"

We were also in the beginning with God as spirit even the Spirit of Truth... The Light of Truth, Intelligence, and Spirit of Truth directly reference to and coincide with, not respectively mind you, the Light of Christ, Spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost.

These intelligences which we once were, are what make up the Breath of Life, Light of Christ, Spirit of Christ, and the Holy Ghost all working for our Salvation. There are many different names and references to all of these levels of the spirit in the scriptures. I know that Bruce R and Steven R Covey have given talks separating these organizations but... not like this.

The higher levels can like a Priest to a Deacon or Teacher fulfill their roles. So in the scriptures the Holy Ghost can be the Spirit of Christ or the Light of Christ, and the Spirit of Christ can be the Light of Christ. But the Light of Christ can’t be the Spirit of Christ or the Holy Ghost.

Fullness of the Holy Ghost

John 1:9 that was the true Light (Light of Christ) which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. If a man or woman follows the light of Christ it will lead him or her to the Church. They are then Taught the Gospel through the Missionaries and baptized and given the Gift of the Holy Ghost which is the Spirit of Christ (John 1:12, Ephesians 2:5,8,10). Then through diligence and obedience they increase in the Light of Christ and Spirit of Christ line upon line precept upon precept, being sanctified through the sacrament and the Blood of Christ, until they receive a Fullness of the Holy Ghost which is called a lot of things, Calling and Election is one of many.

In his prayer of the dedication of the Kirtland, Ohio, LDS Temple, in 1836, the thirty-year-old Prophet Joseph implored;

... And do thou grand, Holy Father, that all those who shall worship in this house may be taught words of wisdom out of the best books, and that they may seek learning by study, and also by faith, as thou has said; and that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fullness of the Holy Ghost.

Bodies at the same Level of Existence can feel and touch each other Hence, Mortal being can see, feel and touch each other, in this mortal state we live in. The Morning Stars (Spirit Body plus an Intelligence which is inseparably connected together eternally) can also feel, see and touch each other at their level of existence. Intelligences are spirits, are men, are a personage of spirit, are an angel. They are very small in size. However they also are able to see, touch and feel each other at their level of existence.

Doctrine & Covenants 93:33 For Man is Spirit (i.e. an intelligence in a spirit body). The Elements are Eternal (i.e. the Body of the Spirit) and Spirit and Element, inseparably connected receive a fulness of joy. In our present state the mortal body is not inseparably connected to our spirit and will separate at our death. When we become Inseparably Connected to Mortal Bodies our Spirit body and Physical Body will become One. We shall be able to See, To touch, to Hold, To hear the Morning Stars (i.e. Intelligence and Spirit Body) and Satan will not be able to enter our bodies.

Bodies at the same level of Existence cannot exist, nor enter the body of a like person. Bodies at different Levels of Existence can exist inside another Body. An Intelligence (man) can enter the body of a Spirit Body and Physical Body. An Intelligence exists in mortals such as the Holy Ghost and other intelligences which include the Spirit of Christ, the Light of Christ, The Breath of Life, all of which are men themselves all working for our Salvation.

The only record we have of a Spirit Body entering a Physical body that isn’t it’s own is in Luke 8:30-33 when Legion entered the body of a Man. Legion was many devils and since spirit body can’t enter a spirit body there were able to be many spirits crammed into one body. The Holy Ghost does not work this way!

Intelligences and the Priesthood from the Dawn of Time:

Intelligences realize, that to progress from eternity to eternity... until it is their time to enter into Mortality, that they would need a leader who was Perfect. To this Man, this eternal priest afther the Holy Order of God, they gave their allegiance. They know the Laws that require a Sacrafice of a Sinless Man be made on their behalf, to bring about their own Salvation.

We saints look to our Savior, the same way the intelligences do, to bring us back into the Father’s presence. The Savior is our leader, the way to eternal life!

According to Alma 5:44, the Priesthood is in Christ Jesus (i.e. the intelligences that is known as the Spirit of Christ or the Gift of the Holy Ghost), these intelligences (called Christ Jesus etc) are the ones who carry out all the ordinations in the church. (also see Philippians 1:1, 1 Corinthians 4:15, 2 Timothy 1:1) They are perfect to the law and we are not. Doctrine & Covenants 20:60, “Every elder, priest, teacher, or deacon is to be ordained according to the gifts and callings of God unto him; and he is to be ordained by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is in the one who ordains him.” Also see 1 John 2:27, “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

The Father Son and thee Holy Ghost are one!

They are all Perfect Men who exist in Three different levels of existence. The Father being the most advanced intelligence, then follows the Son, then the Holy Ghost, the grandson. The Godhead is different than the presidency of heaven because the Godhead is perfect however Adam is not perfect. If Christ would have been the first flesh on earth, he being perfect, would not have disobeyed Father’s commandment, and there would have been No Fall. Romans 6:19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Doctrine and Covenants 93:26 also identifies Jesus Christ with the title normally assigned to the Holy Ghost, namely the Spirit of Truth.

If the Holy Ghost was a Morning Star in the pre mortal existence how could He have dwelt in countless numbers of other Morning Stars, to bear witness of Jesus being the Son of God? Satan and his angels of which there are countless numbers, would have recieved the witness of the Holy Ghost within their elemental spirit bodies. This could only be achieved by countless numbers of intelligences called the Spirit of Truth (i.e. The Holy Ghost). Because Satan and his Angels denied this powerful witness of the Father’s Power (not the Son’s Power), that Jesus is His Son, they were cast out of heaven in accordance with the scripture Matthew 12:32 and Doctrine & Covenants 76:34. The Holy Ghost communicates a Powerful Spiritual Witness from Intelligence to our own Intelligence.

Doctrine & Covenants 20:73 ...Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the Name of the FATHER and of the (name) of the SON and of the (name) of the HOLY GHOST amen.

This is very interesting when you compare with this scripture Acts 4:12, “Neither is there Salvation in any other: for there is none other name under Heaven given among men (mortals) whereby we must be saved.”

The name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost must be the Same Name which is Jesus Christ. Because every Ordinance and Prayer that is done in the church is done in His Name.

The name that saves the christian is Jesus Christ and since it is the only name given where by man can be Save it stands to reason that... the Father’s Name must also be Jesus Christ so He save the Sons of God in the Times Past. Our Jesus Christ is Our Savior. Also it is imperative that the Name of the Holy Ghost is also Jesus Christ in order to save our future Spirit Children, Morning Stars. Job 38:7.

Enoch 46:1-3 "And there I saw One who had a head of days, And His head was white like wool, And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of a man, And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. 2 And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things, concerning that 3 Son of Man, who he was, and whence he was, (and) why he went with the Head of Days? And he answered and said unto me: This is the Son of Man who hath righteousness, With whom dwelleth righteousness, And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden (Holy Ghost gives Scriptures II Peter 1:21), Because the Lord of Hosts hath chosen him, And whose lot hath the pre-eminence before the Lord of Hosts in uprightness for ever."

Here one being, who was pure (head was white as wool symbolic), had, “a head of days” which is a holy ghost. Then we have another being who is Christ. The first being (Enoch) asks Christ, who, and whence he was, and why he went with “The Head of Days” who was The Holy Ghost(Luke 4:1-14). If this means that, then there was a holy ghost with Enoch and The Holy Ghost with Christ.

If the Holy Ghost:

If the Holy Ghost is Perfect like Christ but also has a spirit body then he could second for the Role of Christ. We all know Christ was not replaceable, Joseph Smith possibly, but not Christ. If the Holy Ghost was a Morning Star with a Spirit Body why did he not appear to Joseph Smith in the First Vision together with The Father and The Son... so Joseph could have seen all of the Godhead as Three Individual Beings and not Three in one? When Jesus was a Morning Star, he was seen by the Brother of Jared, Abraham, Moses, and other prophets. So why was the Perfect Holy Ghost not present at this revealing of the vision of the Godhead?

If the Holy Ghost is a Morning Star he would not be able to be inside the bodies of either the Father or the Son. However since thee Holy Ghost is an Intelligence there is no problem.

Thee Holy Ghost as a Morning Star would then be born a mortal on this earth being as he kept his first estate. So when will the Perfect Sinless Holy Ghost be Born? Who will this Perfect Man be? There are no scriptures that give us any detail about this very important mans birth. After all he is second to our Savior Jesus Christ.

Michael is Second to the Holy One. It is Michael who will hold the keys of salvation under Christ. Michael cannot be the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost is Perfect and Michael is not. Doctrine & Covenants 78:16, 88:114-115, 107:55.

The Next Jesus Christ and the Firstborn of our Elder Brother, is the current Holy Ghost. The current Holy Ghost is a Perfect Man who has never committed a sin and never will. He will be the Savior and the lamb of the Children of the gods. Moses 1:39

We will never be The Holy Ghost because we were a holy ghost as an intelligence, we will never be The Christ because we only do mortality once however do aid in bringing people into the gospel, we will never be The Father because Christ will be the Next God The Father and we will sit with him as part of the council of gods, however we will be a father and mother and have spirit children in the next plan, if we are in the Highest degree of the Cel Kingdom.

One thing is for sure, God was never a Sinful Man and a sinful man can become a god but not God The Father.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yes it is. I was the ward holy ghost for a couple of years back in the 90's and I was recently released after an 8 year stint as the stake holy ghost. Bit of a crappy calling, people always asking me to find their car keys and such.

H.

Even Joking about being the Holy Ghost is a little over the top, don't you think. Kind of like joking about being God?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Hi TSS,

The non-LDS 2BC "Word of the Lord" revelations revealing that Father Adam is the Holy Ghost, and that he, Michael/Adam, lived on a previous earth, as did Jehovah his Savior (the Father of Jesus) could be also considered speculation. The only sure way to discern by the Spirit speculation from revelation is, of course, prayer with a humble and open heart as prescribed by Moroni 10:4.

Richard

CFR, please.

[Cobalt-70]

Historically, Mormons have not known what to do with the Holy Spirit, because we have had seemingly-conflicting scripture. In the Book of Mormon, the Holy Spirit is portrayed as just one of God's three manifestations. In the original Doctrine and Covenants, the Holy Spirit was the shared mind of the two distinct gods of the godhead, Jesus and the Father. Privately, Smith was teaching near the end of his life that the Holy Spirit was a personage, but Mormons in general did not hear that, and all they had to go on was the Doctrine and Covenants, which said that the Godhead had only two personages. Then in 1876, D&C 130 was added, which contained a heavily edited, third- or fourth-hand version of Smith's actual words from 1843 about the Holy Ghost being a "personage of Spirit."

So between 1876 and about 1921 (when the "doctrine" part of the Doctrine and Covenants was lopped off and discarded), we had in the LDS canon three different theologies about the Holy Ghost: (1) the vague Book of Mormon material portraying the Holy Spirit as apparently the same person as Jesus and the Father, (2) the doctrine that the Holy Spirit was the shared mind of the Father and the Son, not a personage, and (3) the doctrine that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage. Although writers like James E. Talmage were pretty influential in pressing option #3 and removing #2 from LDS scripture, It's not surprising that some Mormons today have different views on the identity of the Holy Ghost.

As to the the Holy Ghost being a calling, I think that's not inconsistent with most LDS theology. Most Mormons consider godhood itself to be a kind of priesthood office, and the godhead to be a kind of quorum. The Bible does, after all, describe Jesus as a Melchizedek priest, and faithful Mormons are routinely anointed, via a priesthood ordinance, to become gods and goddesses.

[Mudcat]

Holy Spirit epistemology seems a very confusing issue if a person is LDS. I think this thread is fair example of that.

As a thought, taking the LDS view of the Gift of the Holy Ghost. It is supposed to be a guarantee of the Holy Spirit's continual companionship in a very direct sense.

But if you think about it, given the LDS paradigm, this locks the Holy Spirit out of progression to a physical body.

[Maidservant]

(1) the vague Book of Mormon material portraying the Holy Spirit as apparently the same person as Jesus and the Father

Are you sure? 1 Ne Chapter 11?

In any case, to the whole thread, I think most LDS thought on the Holy Ghost has more to do with what he does for us in our spiritual journey (sanctification, etc). Questions like this are interesting, and I am always a person who likes to think on what the "mechanics" of things are.

But it doesn't change the basic need I have to have the spirit be a part of my life.

[Zakuska]

Further reading related to my previous post:

God is a Divine Man in Biblical Tradition by Wesley Williams

You know it is ironic that a major Christian doctrine is derived from a Pagan Prophet.

Numbers 23:19

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Who the Apostles called a False Prophet.

2 Peter 2

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Jude 1:11

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Revelation 2:14

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

I'd say these rebukes apply equaly to those who hold the doctrines of Balaam (that God isn't a man and has no Body parts or Passions), in our day and age.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Zakuska