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Spirit Bodies


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All you seem to have done in your most recent post is to question whether I know how Jesus appeared in the locked room. You have not offered a better explanation.

I can't find any place where you have offered any explanation at all. It was just "supernatural", and we all agree on that.

We have provided at least one alternative that is supernatural (in that it is not likely to happen with materials we are familiar with), but which does not break the laws of physics: the interatomic/molecular spaces could allow (for Someone with the knowledge and power to do so) could permit other molecules and atoms to pass through them. It would, as I think you pointed out, require an adaptation of the forces that hold molecules together, but that's not the point any of us was making. We were saying that the spaces allow one particle to move through an other mass: there's plenty of room.

As for me, personally, I do not believe this is what happened, but it is possible in my view.

Lehi

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I can't find any place where you have offered any explanation at all.

See this post.

We have provided at least one alternative that is supernatural (in that it is not likely to happen with materials we are familiar with), but which does not break the laws of physics: the interatomic/molecular spaces could allow (for Someone with the knowledge and power to do so) could permit other molecules and atoms to pass through them. It would, as I think you pointed out, require an adaptation of the forces that hold molecules together, but that's not the point any of us was making. We were saying that the spaces allow one particle to move through an other mass: there's plenty of room.

As for me, personally, I do not believe this is what happened, but it is possible in my view.

I have explained why such an explanation actually does violate physics, and also why it is irrelevant to the question if what Jesus did was supernatural.

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Vance,

You wrote:

Yes, I do. Now answer my question, please.

Well, OBVIOUSLY you don't know what it is or you wouldn't ask such a silly question.

It is caused by the element Hydrogen passing into a solid metal combining into molecular Hydrogen causing the base metal to become brittle.

The point, of course, is that a physical element PASSES THROUGH a SOLID MATERIAL. Something that you apparently believe is beyond the power of God.

Edited by Vance
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Vance,

I didn't ask you to explain hydrogen embrittlement, but for you to explain how this phenomenon applies to or is analogous to Jesus's solid body supposedly passing through a solid wall. Apparently, given your response, you are suggesting that Jesus' body could pass through a solid wall like hydrogen passing into a solid metal. This would make Jesus' body analogous to hydrogen and the wall analogous to the embrittled metal. That's a very poor analogy for three obvious reasons: (1) Jesus' body is a solid, not a gas, (2) in hydrogen embrittlement the hydrogen passes into the metal; it does not pass unscathed through the metal; and (3) the account of Jesus' appearing in the locked room does not suggest that the walls were damaged by Jesus supposedly passing through them.

Other than that, nice analogy! ;)

Well, OBVIOUSLY you don't know what it is or you wouldn't ask such a silly question.

It is caused by the element Hydrogen passing into a solid metal combining into molecular Hydrogen causing the base metal to become brittle.

The point, of course, is that a physical element PASSES THROUGH a SOLID MATERIAL. Something that you apparently believe is beyond the power of God.

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Rob,

I appreciate you answering my questions.

Neither. A human soul or spirit is not omnipresent, but neither does it occupy a specific region of space. It is not a spatial object at all. It is incorporeal. When united with a physical body, the soul or spirit functions or operates within the limited physical parameters of the body, but it is not itself a spatial object.

I am a bit confused. Are you suggesting that the soul or "person" is no-where present? Or are you saying that the soul/person is present within the limited physical parameters of the body? And, if the latter, then how could it not be spacial (i.e. being present only in a limited spacial area)?

In a physical sense, no. But I am comfortable using the term substance in reference to the nature of non-physical entities.

Is the "substance" of a soul/"person" present in and limited to the parameters of the physical body?

Yes. But Jesus' resurrection state is solid, not gaseous. He has a risen body.

In terms of physics, what is the difference between something that is super-naturally solid, and something that is gaseous?

Also, to your way of thinking, does Christ have a soul and is it limited to the parameters of his solid resurrected body?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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I didn't ask you to explain hydrogen embrittlement, but for you to explain how this phenomenon applies to or is analogous to Jesus's solid body supposedly passing through a solid wall.

Actually, No you didn't.

Apparently, given your response, you are suggesting that Jesus' body could pass through a solid wall like hydrogen passing into a solid metal.

That is not "apparent" at all. You are just stubbornly ignoring the important point.

This would make Jesus' body analogous to hydrogen and the wall analogous to the embrittled metal.

Not really. If a Hydrogen atom can pass through SOLID METAL on its own, do you still think that it is impossible for Jesus' physical body to pass through a wall using supernatural/miraculous means?

That's a very poor analogy . . .

It isn't an analogy at all. You are just unwilling to concede the OBVIOUS point.

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300 dollars later (and worth every penny) we are good to go! ;)

:acute:

You are evil!

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I can't find any place where you have offered any explanation at all. It was just "supernatural", and we all agree on that.

:good:

This is fun. Kind of like charades!

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Do you think this might help with the discussion any:

JS-History 1
:

43 After this communication [with the angel Moroni], I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him; when, instantly I saw, as it were,
a conduit open right up into heaven,
and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.

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From The Gospel of Thomas:

11. Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away.

The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. During the days when you ate what is dead, you made it come alive. When you are in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom."

They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?"

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

106. Jesus said, "When you make the two into one, you will become children of Adam, and when you say, 'Mountain, move from here!' it will move."

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Vance,

You wrote:

This argument, though quite common, rests on a misunderstanding of the physics of atoms and subatomic particles. It is true that electrons and the nucleus, viewed as static particles, would occupy only a very small percentage of the total space occupied by the atom as a whole. But this in no way permits the notion of one solid object passing undisturbed through another solid object (which is the issue here). The error is twofold, involving both the atomic and macro levels.

For the atomic level, I will start by giving you an analogy. An old-style propeller on a small airplane occupies only a small fraction of the total space through which the propeller moves as it spins. However, a physical object moving through the space controlled by the spinning propeller will collide with it, causing damage to one or both objects. The spinning propeller actually "occupies" a larger space than the propeller viewed as a static object. The same is true of atoms: an atom is not a collection of static subatomic particles but a dynamic system of moving parts, constantly pulsing with invisible forces, that as a system occupies a space larger than the subatomic particles themselves.

This actually was a problem for those that first attempted to mount a machine gun on an airplaine...however, this was easily overcome by some mere humans with a will. Add God, who is master of all laws of physics, both laws that are known by us, and laws that are yet to be discovered, and passing a seemingly solid body through a seemingly solid wall, seems...well, not very difficult at all.
For the macro level, we have the same problem but on a much larger scale. A brick wall is not a porous mesh of atoms or molecules statically lined up with large spaces left open between them, like a hundred human beings lined up between Los Angeles and New York. From the "openness" of the material on a molecular or atomic level, it does not follow that the material is "open" at the macroscopic level. There is a reason why you can "swoosh" your hand through the air but not through a brick wall. The density of the molecules relative to one another in a brick wall is much greater than in a gaseous cloud or a roomful of ordinary air. If Jesus' body in its resurrected state is still a physical body, which you and I agree that it is, then this principle applies just as much to his body as it does to ours. If it didn't, then people would not have been physically able to touch Jesus' hands and side and determine that he was flesh and bones: their hands would have failed to make solid contact with his body just as you suggest the wall failed to do so minutes earlier when Jesus supposedly "walked through" it.

Now you could suggest that Jesus performed a miracle to permit him to walk through the wall. I agree that Jesus could have performed a miracle; in fact, I agree that his appearance in the room was supernatural. But that is precisely why the appeal to subatomic physics is irrelevant. Jesus' appearance in the room is a supernatural act, not a physically natural one.

Since you seem to favor an unexplainable, supernatural method, it seems like passing a body through a solid wall is still fairly unexplainable or supernatural.

It wasn't too long ago that a man flying through the air was considered supernatural. As man's understanding of nature increases, what is considered supernatural decreases. Just because God can/would do something that man can explain, doesn't mean it is any less divine.

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Consider the Star Trek transporter. The persons molecules are disassembled,cataloged,and sent on a beam of "light" to a particular point in space where they are reassembled.Did they pass through

the walls? Well yes in a way they did but as particles.

On the other hand,Jesus was able to control the wind and the waves.I suppose He could just command the wall particles to separate as He passed through and then reform behind Him.

\

From my store of apocraphal mission stories. There were a pair of missionaries who were met at the door by a man with a machete who was angry at them and swung the machete and cleaved one missionary in half accept it just passed through him,no damage to him or the weapon yet they seem to have occupied the same space for an instant in time.

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Rob, have the 10 questions in the OP been answered? If so I will stop checking in as I think that all agree that "a spirit hath not flesh and bone" regardless of how Jesus appeared, vanished or ascended after His resurrection, and how one considers that to mean it can be another "other-worldly" corporeal substance in its own right or not. Thank you--

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Consider the Star Trek transporter. The persons molecules are disassembled,cataloged,and sent on a beam of "light" to a particular point in space where they are reassembled.Did they pass through

the walls? Well yes in a way they did but as particles.

Actually, if it happened in Star Trek fashion, his body particles would have become disorganized and gone in stasis to some 3rd point before being reassembled on the other side of the wall, without ever passing through the wall, even though to naked eye it would appear to have passed through the wall if it happened quickly enough.

That is not how it happened, though, because resurrected bodies do not become disorganized.

Personally, I think Jesus went through the same space the wall occupied but in a different dimension where the wall was not present and then reappeared in the same dimension as the wall, again, but on the other side of the wall. Thus, he walked through the same space as the wall, but not actually through the wall.

On the other hand,Jesus was able to control the wind and the waves.I suppose He could just command the wall particles to separate as He passed through and then reform behind Him.

Well, yeah, that could have happened, instead, I suppose.

From my store of apocraphal mission stories. There were a pair of missionaries who were met at the door by a man with a machete who was angry at them and swung the machete and cleaved one missionary in half accept it just passed through him,no damage to him or the weapon yet they seem to have occupied the same space for an instant in time.

Same space, yes, but I think God could have caused the axe to go into a different dimension for a brief moment in time in order to miss hitting the person's body.

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At least we agree that Christ's post-resurrection manifestation in the room was supernatural. Whether the supernatural act took the form of passing a solid body through a solid wall or door or some other fashion is to me of relative unimportance, let alone not definitively knowable one way or the other. So, to the extent that we each desire, we are free to speculate whatever we wish about this.

We also agree that the resurrection consists of reuniting the spirit with the glorified body that has flesh and bone.

We also agree that the spirit is a person and comprised of substance. However, I am waiting to learn if we agree that the substance of the spirit person is present in the physical body, and whether that presence is limited to the parameters of the body. In other words, I am waiting to learn if we agree that the presence of the substance of spirit persons is limited in size, if not shape.

Once we learn this, we can then assess how close we may be to agreeing that the spirit person has a "body" or not. And, given that we may agree that we can learn somewhat about our own future resurrections from Christ's post-mortal existence, perhaps we can learn about whether our spirits have "bodies" from Christ's per-mortal existence. We'll see.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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Whether the supernatural act took the form of passing a solid body through a solid wall or door or some other fashion is to me of relative unimportance, let alone not definitively knowable one way or the other.

Yes, I find it quite "immaterial"...

The disciples in Luke 24:37, when they saw the resurrected Lord, at first thought they saw and heard a spirit speaking to them. Their assumption / understanding / experience was that a spirit looks like a person.

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resurrected bodies do not become disorganized [as in the Star Trek transporter].

We know this, eh, how?

Given that all matter is a form of energy, anyway, how does changing its form make it less "eternal" or whatever the position you take here may be?

Lehi

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Given that all matter is a form of energy, anyway, how does changing its form make it less "eternal" or whatever the position you take here may be?

I would venture to guess that it violates his personal interpretation of the scriptural phrase "inseparably connected". But, until we have a working model of spirit matter and how it interacts with physical matter, anybody's guess is basically as good as anybody other's.

Though, I might point out that with a transporter, no matter is actually transported only information sufficient to completely replicate the individual on the other end. However transporters create all kinds of extensions to the Ship of Theseus identity problem. Fantastically fun topic, but a bit off topic I suppose.

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