Spirit Bodies

[wenglund]

Yes, I find it quite "immaterial"...

Pun intended? LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Bowman]

Blackstrap,

You wrote:

Consider the Star Trek transporter. The persons molecules are disassembled,cataloged,and sent on a beam of "light" to a particular point in space where they are reassembled.Did they pass through the walls? Well yes in a way they did but as particles.

Actually, no. The transporters in ST convert matter to energy, transmit the energy to the desired location, and then re-convert the energy to matter. No matter passes through any walls.

Hey, we can argue about theology, but I know my Star Trek.

You wrote:

On the other hand,Jesus was able to control the wind and the waves.I suppose He could just command the wall particles to separate as He passed through and then reform behind Him.

The whole business about Jesus passing through the walls assumes a scenario that is highly problematic. It assumes that Jesus was walking around Jerusalem, without anyone seeing him who wasn't supposed to see him, and then he walked up to the house where the disciples were and walked through the wall (or perhaps through the locked door). Then when he was done visiting the disciples, he walked back through the wall (or perhaps had Peter unlock the door so he could get out without resorting to walking through the wall again) and went outside, where it was again necessary for him to avoid being seen by anyone.

The incident with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus illustrates the more likely scenario that Jesus appeared in the room without his body physically passing through a wall. In that incident Jesus was in a room with the two men and suddenly disappeared from the room. No, he wasn't using a personal cloaking device. It would seem that Jesus' body had the capacity to become located at a specific place without needing to traverse a linear distance from another location to get there. If you want a 1960s television show analogy, think Samantha Stevens popping from her front room to her husband's office instantaneously. And no, I am not suggesting Christ was a witch!

[Rob Bowman]

Wade,

You wrote:

I appreciate you answering my questions.

Glad to do it.

I am a bit confused. Are you suggesting that the soul or "person" is no-where present? Or are you saying that the soul/person is present within the limited physical parameters of the body? And, if the latter, then how could it not be spacial (i.e. being present only in a limited spacial area)? ...Is the "substance" of a soul/"person" present in and limited to the parameters of the physical body?

I will give you my opinion, for what it's worth. The soul or spirit is "present" but not as a physical or material entity. Therefore, it does not occupy a circumscribed amount of space, nor is it taking up some space somewhere in the body. It is localized in the sense that it is imbedded, so to speak, in the body, but it is not located because it is not a physical object or even a physical force.

In terms of physics, what is the difference between something that is super-naturally solid, and something that is gaseous?

I don't know what you mean by supernaturally solid. Since Jesus' body is a physical, human body, we may understand it to have the same basic properties of a human body. I would not expect that Jesus' body now weighs two tons nor that it weighs only two ounces. Its mass and weight on earth would presumably be roughly comparable to that of what we know as a normal healthy human being. It was capable of eating fish, and the text gives no indication that his eating the fish was a miraculous act. His body could be touched, even grasped or hugged.

Also, to your way of thinking, does Christ have a soul and is it limited to the parameters of his solid resurrected body?

Yes, Jesus has a human soul, and it is localized by its union with his human body. But Jesus is also transcendent deity. In orthodox doctrine, Christ has two natures, a fully divine nature which is infinite, incorporeal spirit, and a fully human nature which is finite, corporeal flesh. Thus, Jesus Christ is not limited to where his body may be, because he is both human and divine.

[wenglund]

The whole business about Jesus passing through the walls assumes a scenario that is highly problematic. It assumes that Jesus was walking around Jerusalem, without anyone seeing him who wasn't supposed to see him, and then he walked up to the house where the disciples were and walked through the wall (or perhaps through the locked door). Then when he was done visiting the disciples, he walked back through the wall (or perhaps had Peter unlock the door so he could get out without resorting to walking through the wall again) and went outside, where it was again necessary for him to avoid being seen by anyone.

Who is assuming that Christ's post-resurrection appearances at different locations around Jerusalem were accomplished by walking rather than supernaturally? I know I don't. (Please don't let this be yet another instance of you putting words into our mouths.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Ahab]

I would venture to guess that it violates his personal interpretation of the scriptural phrase "inseparably connected".

Good guess.

But, until we have a working model of spirit matter and how it interacts with physical matter, anybody's guess is basically as good as anybody other's.

We do have working models of spirit matter, as those models pertain to our personal spirits, and by studying each of our spirits we can see that they do stay confined to our own (other) physical body, while we have one, and that when our spirits do have to leave our (other) physical body, such as at death, we seek the day when our spirits will be reunited with our (other) physical bodies to never again be separated.

We can also see that those who never have had (other) physical bodies, such as Satan and others who were cast out of heaven with him, would sometimes rather be in the (other) physical bodies of a bunch of pigs than not be in one at all. And we can also see that spirits without (other) physcial bodies can sometimes join into one (other) physical body, such as when several evil spirits have taken possession of (another) physical body.

The fact that you may not be able to see a working model of a spirit body, comprised of spirit matter, doesn't mean we don't have one that we can study. We can study our own, or those of another, and all without even needing to see the (other) physical body.

And btw, I"m calling our spirit body our (other) physical body because it, too, is composed of physical particles of matter, although they're more fine than those of our (other) physical body.

Though, I might point out that with a transporter, no matter is actually transported only information sufficient to completely replicate the individual on the other end.

Not so. Transporters like those on Star Trek actually... if they had been in reality... broke down the particles of a person's (other) physical body, transported them to a chamber where they were held in stasis for a moment in time, during which time that person's (other) physical body particles were all that remained of that person's (other) physical body, after which time those particles were then transported (again) to another point in space and time to be reorganized as they were before the transport, if everything worked out as it should

Edited September 8, 2011 by Ahab

[Nofear]

We do have working models of spirit matter, as those models pertain to our personal spirits, and by studying each of our spirits we can see that they do stay confined to our own (other) physical body, while we have one, and that when our spirits do have to leave our (other) physical body, such as at death, we seek the day when our spirits will be reunited with our (other) physical bodies to never again be separated.

We can also see that those who never have had (other) physical bodies, such as Satan and others who were cast out of heaven with him, would sometimes rather be in the (other) physical bodies of a bunch of pigs than not be in one at all. And we can also see that spirits without (other) physcial bodies can sometimes join into one (other) physical body, such as when several evil spirits have taken possession of (another) physical body.

The fact that you may not be able to see a working model of a spirit body, comprised of spirit matter, doesn't mean we don't have one that we can study. We can study our own, or those of another, and all without even needing to see the (other) physical body.

Our criteria of what constitutes a "model" seem to differ. Tidbits of clues are not a model. They can be used to generate a model but the model will necessarily make predictions extending beyond the clues themselves. Anyway, I commented some with post #18 but it apparently wasn't germane to Rob Bowman's purposes.

And btw, I"m calling our spirit body our (other) physical body because it, too, is composed of physical particles of matter, although they're more fine than those of our (other) physical body.

In my opinion, the term spirit matter is sufficient to assert our claim of material substance while at the same time distinguishing it from the physical matter with which we are acquainted with. I will continue to use the convention that "physical" refers to matter which is describable by the Standard Model.

Not so. Transporters like those on Star Trek actually... if they had been in reality... broke down the particles of a person's (other) physical body, transported them to a chamber where they were held in stasis for a moment in time, during which time that person's (other) physical body particles were all that remained of that person's (other) physical body, after which time those particles were then transported (again) to another point in space and time to be reorganized as they were before the transport, if everything worked out as it should

Star Trek never actually deigned to put forth a plausible model of how the transporter would work. I suppose in some speculations the actual atoms are physically and spatially moved to the remote point. Other speculations allow for it as I spoke.

[wenglund]

Rob,

Again, I appreciate you answering my questions.

I will give you my opinion, for what it's worth. The soul or spirit is "present" but not as a physical or material entity. Therefore, it does not occupy a circumscribed amount of space, nor is it taking up some space somewhere in the body. It is localized in the sense that it is imbedded, so to speak, in the body, but it is not located because it is not a physical object or even a physical force.

It seems logically contradictory (by definition) to me to say on the one hand that souls have substance, are present, and their presence is limited to the parameters of the physical body, and on the other hand say it doesn't take up space--even given that it is not a physical object or physical force. At the very least I would think the spirit person would occupy immaterial space. However, we each are entitled to our own opinion.

I don't know what you mean by supernaturally solid. Since Jesus' body is a physical, human body, we may understand it to have the same basic properties of a human body.

By "supernatural" I mean it is incorruptible and glorified and capable of actions that may not be possible for the human body (for example, to my knowledge the human body in its current state isn't capable of instantaneous transportation, start to stop, across the expanses of the universe). This means that the properties of the resurrected body may be somewhat different than the human body.

I would not expect that Jesus' body now weighs two tons nor that it weighs only two ounces. Its mass and weight on earth would presumably be roughly comparable to that of what we know as a normal healthy human being. It was capable of eating fish, and the text gives no indication that his eating the fish was a miraculous act. His body could be touched, even grasped or hugged.

As I understand things (you are free to believe differently), Christ's resurrected body did not contain blood, and if so, then at the very least the life-sustaining properties of resurrected bodies are different from human bodies--including digestion and transportation of nutrients from ingested fish throughout the body and the extraction of waste.

Yes, Jesus has a human soul, and it is localized by its union with his human body. But Jesus is also transcendent deity. In orthodox doctrine, Christ has two natures, a fully divine nature which is infinite, incorporeal spirit, and a fully human nature which is finite, corporeal flesh. Thus, Jesus Christ is not limited to where his body may be, because he is both human and divine.

If I understand you correctly, there are three aspects to the mortal Jesus:

1) there is the "person" of substance that is the spirit/soul of Jesus, which was present in and limited to the parameters of Jesus's mortal body, though non-corporeal, and united with:

2) Jesus's mortal body.

3) Jesus's divine spirit, which is not "localized" or limited to where his body is, which presumably is also one of the three "person" that is God.

In other words, to your way of thinking, the mortal Jesus was comprised of two spirit persons?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Bowman]

Wade,

You wrote:

Who is assuming that Christ's post-resurrection appearances at different locations around Jerusalem were accomplished by walking rather than supernaturally? I know I don't. (Please don't let this be yet another instance of you putting words into our mouths.)

What I said was not that anyone here has actually stated that Christ was walking from one place to another in his post-resurrection appearances but that the claim that Jesus' physical body must have passed through the physical wall (with his body and the wall occupying the same space at the same time) assumes (without realizing it, much less saying so) that Jesus got into the room by walking up to the wall and passing through it. I'm not particular about the walking--substitute running, jumping, or even flying--the point is that the claim assumes that Jesus was in one physical location outside the room and traversed the space from that location into the room by moving through the wall.

[LeSellers]

What I said was not that anyone here has actually stated that Christ was walking from one place to another in his post-resurrection appearances but that the claim that Jesus' physical body must have passed through the physical wall (with his body and the wall occupying the same space at the same time) assumes (without realizing it, much less saying so) that Jesus got into the room by walking up to the wall and passing through it. I'm not particular about the walking--substitute running, jumping, or even flying--the point is that the claim assumes that Jesus was in one physical location outside the room and traversed the space from that location into the room by moving through the wall.

We keep in mind that He was resurrected, i.e., He had His body, flesh and bone, as well as his spirit.

If He was not in the room at time x, and was in the room at time x+1, and, as the scripture tells us, the room was closed (no open doors or windows), then, how did He get inside?

As I've said, I am not among those who believe that He passed through the wall, but there was some mechanism by which He got into that room. Passing "in between" the molecules is one possible (a very possible) means He could have used.

Lehi

Edited September 8, 2011 by LeSellers

[Rob Bowman]

Wade,

You wrote:

Again, I appreciate you answering my questions.

I do my best.

It seems logically contradictory (by definition) to me to say on the one hand that souls have substance, are present, and their presence is limited to the parameters of the physical body, and on the other hand say it doesn't take up space--even given that it is not a physical object or physical force. At the very least I would think the spirit person would occupy immaterial space. However, we each are entitled to our own opinion.

The difference is that I believe in the existence of incorporeal beings and you don't. And I don't know what "immaterial space" might mean.

By "supernatural" I mean it is incorruptible and glorified and capable of actions that may not be possible for the human body (for example, to my knowledge the human body in its current state isn't capable of instantaneous transportation, start to stop, across the expanses of the universe). This means that the properties of the resurrected body may be somewhat different than the human body.

That might well turn out to be the case. Certainly it will not have deleterious properties such as susceptibility to disease, decay, and death. It may also have some surprising positive properties. I'm looking forward to finding out. However, it will not be able to do the contradictory or nonsense. For example, it will not be able to be a physical body and occupy the same space at the same time as another physical body. That wouldn't be "miraculous" or "supernatural"; it would be simply incoherent.

As I understand things (you are free to believe differently), Christ's resurrected body did not contain blood, and if so, then at the very least the life-sustaining properties of resurrected bodies are different from human bodies--including digestion and transportation of nutrients from ingested fish throughout the body and the extraction of waste.

This is a popular idea, espoused by many evangelicals as well. The Bible doesn't say one way or the other about the resurrection state of Christ's body or of ours. I am hesitant to endorse the idea and even more reluctant to base anything on it.

If I understand you correctly, there are three aspects to the mortal Jesus:

1) there is the "person" of substance that is the spirit/soul of Jesus, which was present in and limited to the parameters of Jesus's mortal body, though non-corporeal, and united with:

2) Jesus's mortal body.

3) Jesus's divine spirit, which is not "localized" or limited to where his body is, which presumably is also one of the three "person" that is God.

In other words, to your way of thinking, the mortal Jesus was comprised of two spirit persons?

No. I'm grateful for the opportunity to clear this up (as best I can). The incarnate Son, Jesus Christ, has a divine nature, which is spirit, and a human nature, which is soul/body. The incarnate Christ is one person, not two. This one person is a divine person who became human. As a human being, he has a human soul/spirit distinct from his human body, as we all do, but this soul/spirit is not a different person. The person is not per se the substance of his spirit/soul but is the ego, the self-aware center of identity. In a regular human being, the person is not the soul/spirit per se, but exists normally as a union of soul and body, though existing only as a soul between the death of the body and the future resurrection.

[Rob Bowman]

Lehi,

You wrote:

We keep in mind that He was resurrected, i.e., He had His body, flesh and bone, as well as his spirit.

If He was not in the room at time x, and was in the room at time x+1, and, as the scripture tells us, the room was closed (no open doors or windows), then, how did He get inside?

As I've said, I am not among those who believe that He passed through the wall, but there was some mechanism by which He got into that room. Passing "in between" the molecules is one possible (a very possible) means He could have used.

I have already answered this question, at least in part. His body supernaturally located within the room. Some sort of extra-dimensional explanation seems to be the best model for understanding all of the phenomena reported in the resurrection narratives in the Gospels. That is, Christ's body was and is able to move in more than our three spatial dimensions.

[LeSellers]

I have already answered this question, at least in part. His body supernaturally located within the room. Some sort of extra-dimensional explanation seems to be the best model for understanding all of the phenomena reported in the resurrection narratives in the Gospels. That is, Christ's body was and is able to move in more than our three spatial dimensions.

It may trouble you to note that I agree with this position.

However (and you knew there'd be a "however", didn't you?), the fact is that neither you nor I know how it happened. That fact makes it impossible for me to say it did not come to pass by His "'walking' through the solid wall". You, on the other hand, not knowing how it did happen, seem perfectly willing to reject one theory based on nothing significant at all. That's the point I was making, and I believe others were riding that horse, too.

Lehi

[wenglund]

What I said was not that anyone here has actually stated that Christ was walking from one place to another in his post-resurrection appearances but that the claim that Jesus' physical body must have passed through the physical wall (with his body and the wall occupying the same space at the same time) assumes (without realizing it, much less saying so) that Jesus got into the room by walking up to the wall and passing through it.

No, it doesn't necessarily assume this. I know I don't assume it.

I'm not particular about the walking--substitute running, jumping, or even flying--the point is that the claim assumes that Jesus was in one physical location outside the room and traversed the space from that location into the room by moving through the wall.

Substitute super-naturalistic transportation (decended from on high).

Besides, what you explained as "problematic" was particular to the walking. So, with walking now out of the equation, doesn't that eliminate tthe problem?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited September 8, 2011 by wenglund

[wenglund]

The difference is that I believe in the existence of incorporeal beings and you don't. And I don't know what "immaterial space" might mean.

Conceptually, "immaterial space" is the space where incorporeal beings (persons that have substance) are present. It is the kind of space that is needed for your belief to be coherent and make sense.

That might well turn out to be the case. Certainly it will not have deleterious properties such as susceptibility to disease, decay, and death. It may also have some surprising positive properties. I'm looking forward to finding out. However, it will not be able to do the contradictory or nonsense. For example, it will not be able to be a physical body and occupy the same space at the same time as another physical body. That wouldn't be "miraculous" or "supernatural"; it would be simply incoherent.

Since spirit matter is not the same as physical matter, and thus does not occupy physical space, but it occupies spiritual space, the unity of the spirit and physical bodies is not contradictory or nonsense.

This is a popular idea, espoused by many evangelicals as well. The Bible doesn't say one way or the other about the resurrection state of Christ's body or of ours. I am hesitant to endorse the idea and even more reluctant to base anything on it.

To each their own.

No. I'm grateful for the opportunity to clear this up (as best I can). The incarnate Son, Jesus Christ, has a divine nature, which is spirit, and a human nature, which is soul/body. The incarnate Christ is one person, not two. This one person is a divine person who became human. As a human being, he has a human soul/spirit distinct from his human body, as we all do, but this soul/spirit is not a different person. The person is not per se the substance of his spirit/soul but is the ego, the self-aware center of identity. In a regular human being, the person is not the soul/spirit per se, but exists normally as a union of soul and body, though existing only as a soul between the death of the body and the future resurrection.

Earlier you said the human spirit or soul was a "person," and now you are saying that the spirit or soul is not a "person" except between the time of death and the resurrection. Be that as it may, this still adds up to Christ being comprised of two persons between the three days between the time of his mortal death and resurrection (1. his post-mortal spirit soul, and 2. his diving spirit person). Right?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[HeatherAnn]

I've wondered about our spirit bodies... especially in relation to healing.

I've read, (in "Putting on the Mind of Christ")

“Healing by the laying on of hands…uses thought & astral vibrations, using the healer’s thoughts & emotions (& any psychic ability the healer has to ‘pick up’& transmit the healing vibrations of higher spiritual beings) to heal the sick person’s astral &/or physical body at the places the healer sees or feels are diseased. Once the patient is healed of negative thoughts & emotions, this healing will automatically heal the corresponding (dependent) parts of the physical body, provided the sick person doesn’t invite the negative energies to return.”

Matt 12:24 “But when the Pharisees heard [that Jesus healed a man considered posessed by a devil], they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the

prince of the devils”

*Many today,because of lack of understanding, believe that all psychic powers are used for evil… when they are God given powers – that can be chosen to be used for good or evil.

I've heard of a type of astra (or spiritual) realm/projection - where/how our & other spirit bodies are.

I'm a bit skeptical, I admit.

Yet there are some scriptures that hint at this & out-of-body experiences (similar to Near-Death-Experiences)...

"I knew a man in Christ above 14 years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven." - 2Cor 12

"The hand of the Lord was upon me, & carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, & set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones...." Ezekiel 37:1

What do you think about this?

Edited September 8, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[wenglund]

What do you think about this?

I believe there is some health and wellness symbiosis between the spirit and body of man. Physical deceases may have a deleterious affect on the spirit, and vice-versa. On occasion, as a part of healing the sick, Christ forgave their sins (see for example MT 9:2), making them whole.

This symbiosis may even be more pronounced in cases of mental or emotional illness--or at least that is what I have gathered from my studies of Cognative Behavior Therapy, which I view as a more wholistic approach (taking into consideration the interactive condition of the mind, emotion, body, spirit, and environment) than other forms of psycho-therapy.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[HeatherAnn]

I believe there is some health and wellness symbiosis between the spirit and body of man. Physical deceases may have a deleterious affect on the spirit, and vice-versa. On occasion, as a part of healing the sick, Christ forgave their sins (see for example MT 9:2), making them whole.

This symbiosis may even be more pronounced in cases of mental or emotional illness--or at least that is what I have gathered from my studies of Cognative Behavior Therapy, which I view as a more wholistic approach (taking into consideration the interactive condition of the mind, emotion, body, spirit, and environment) than other forms of psycho-therapy.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks, Wade.

I also appreciate the wholistic approach.

And I believe that spirit, mind & body are interreleated & affect each other.

This is why thoughts are so important... because they produce feelings which affect us in so many ways.

So, I can see how I can heal myself physically by improving thoughts, which improves my spiritual energy... And as my spiritual body is, my body often reflects.

In fact, they say the book of life is in our spiritual bodies.

What I wonder about is healing others... how is it done?

What does it take?

[Rob Bowman]

Lehi,

You wrote:

It may trouble you to note that I agree with this position.

Why would that trouble me? It doesn't trouble me in the slightest.

You wrote:

However (and you knew there'd be a "however", didn't you?), the fact is that neither you nor I know how it happened. That fact makes it impossible for me to say it did not come to pass by His "'walking' through the solid wall". You, on the other hand, not knowing how it did happen, seem perfectly willing to reject one theory based on nothing significant at all. That's the point I was making, and I believe others were riding that horse, too.

Perhaps it would be helpful to review the context of the discussion. I argued that two spatial, material entities cannot occupy the same space at the same time. In response, some here suggested that Jesus' appearance in a locked room proves two spatial, material entities can occupy the same space at the same time, because, they said, Jesus' body passed through the wall to enter the room. So I countered that the texts do not say that Jesus' body passed through walls and that a better (not the only) explanation is available that does not involve the incoherent idea of two material bodies occupying the same space at the same time. The burden of proof is not on me to prove that it happened in the way I proposed. The burden of proof is on those who insist that Jesus' physical, material body passed through a physical wall and therefore occupied the same space as the wall at the same time. The reason they bear the burden of proof in this question is because they are citing the resurrection appearances as evidence for their metaphysical claim about two bodies being able to occupy the same space at the same time. I'm not citing them to prove my metaphysical view (that two bodies cannot occupy the same space at the same time), but only pointing out that the texts do not say what their argument assumes as the premise of their argument.

[Vance]

The burden of proof is not on me to prove that it happened in the way I proposed.

Well, if you want others to give up what they currently believe and accept your OPINION, then indeed, the burden of proof is upon you.

The burden of proof is on those who insist that Jesus' physical, material body passed through a physical wall and therefore occupied the same space as the wall at the same time.

No, not really. ONLY if they want to change your OPINION.

I'm not citing them to prove my metaphysical view (that two bodies cannot occupy the same space at the same time), but only pointing out that the texts do not say what their argument assumes as the premise of their argument.

The reason you aren't citing them is because they don't support your opinion.

IN FACT, NO scripture supports your opinion.

Since you can't cite scripture or science to support your opinion, why should anyone change what they believe?

[Nofear]

Well put Vance.

[Ahab]

Our criteria of what constitutes a "model" seem to differ. Tidbits of clues are not a model. They can be used to generate a model but the model will necessarily make predictions extending beyond the clues themselves. Anyway, I commented some with post #18 but it apparently wasn't germane to Rob Bowman's purposes.

We don't have "tidbits" of spirit bodies. We have full scale, working, state of the art spirit bodies to use as our models of how they work and what they consist of. The fact that some people may draw some false conclusions from them is not my, and also not your, problem.

In my opinion, the term spirit matter is sufficient to assert our claim of material substance while at the same time distinguishing it from the physical matter with which we are acquainted with. I will continue to use the convention that "physical" refers to matter which is describable by the Standard Model.

Fine. Feel free to use the term "spirit matter" while I use the term (other) physical body to refer to our spirit body.

Star Trek never actually deigned to put forth a plausible model of how the transporter would work. I suppose in some speculations the actual atoms are physically and spatially moved to the remote point. Other speculations allow for it as I spoke.

There's actually an encylopedia of Star Trek technology that describes how everything worked, although it doesn't give the specs on how to make the equipment. I had a friend who had one when I was a teenager, and I read it, which is how I know how it worked.

[Ahab]

We keep in mind that He was resurrected, i.e., He had His body, flesh and bone, as well as his spirit.

If He was not in the room at time x, and was in the room at time x+1, and, as the scripture tells us, the room was closed (no open doors or windows), then, how did He get inside?

As I've said, I am not among those who believe that He passed through the wall, but there was some mechanism by which He got into that room. Passing "in between" the molecules is one possible (a very possible) means He could have used.

Lehi

Actually, walking in between the molecules of the wall would be pretty much impossible, so, no, it is not a very possible means of how he did it.

Think of the 4th dimension as the "intensity" of reality, with things go from appearing solid to transparent as you go into another dimension.

He went through the same space as the wall, but not through the "solid" wall, because he went through another dimension where the wall was less "intense".

p.s. You can also think of a spirit body as a hologram of light particles which appear in a certain form while realizing light particles are particles of matter which we, in our present state, can't touch.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Ahab

[Nofear]

We don't have "tidbits" of spirit bodies. We have full scale, working, state of the art spirit bodies to use as our models of how they work and what they consist of. The fact that some people may draw some false conclusions from them is not my, and also not your, problem.

I am at a loss of words how to respond. If you revise your response in a way that suggests understanding of what I wrote then perhaps I could productively reply.

[Questing Beast]

@'Rob Bowman:

1. When we are resurrected, will we have two bodies--a spirit body and a physical body? Do we have two such bodies now? This seems to be entailed in the statement that when we are resurrected our mortal bodies will be reunited with our spirits. Only one body occupying one place at one time. The spirit is "clothed" with the physical body.
2. Is it correct to say that a spirit body occupies space? This seems to be entailed in the statement that spirit beings have a "spirit body" that has "the same bodily form as mortals." Everything occupies space. Spirit is a different "dimension" from empirical. That is why Joseph Smith said that the spirit world is here on earth.
3. If a spirit body occupies space, and if we have now and/or will have after the resurrection both a spirit body and a physical body, will they occupy the same space at the same time? Yes.
4. If the spirit body is in perfect form, why will the physical body need to be resurrected at all? Doesn't the word "perfect" mean that it lacks nothing? The physical body is more than a spirit body. So combining the two is more than being/remaining only a spirit. A perfect physical body can't die or be destroyed, etc. So with it, a spirit is enhanced/empowered in ways a mere spirit alone is not.
5. To what extent does a spirit body "have the same bodily form" as a physical body? Does it have two eyes, two ears, a mouth, a nose, five fingers, and five toes? Does it have hair? Yes. Everything, before it was created "naturally" upon the earth, had a spirit form. All things are created spiritually before they are placed "naturally" upon the earth. (that's a BofM reference, but I don't want to look it up)
6. If a spirit body is anatomically similar to a physical body, and if we have both a spirit body and a physical body (now and/or in the resurrection), does this mean we have or will have four eyes, four ears, two mouths, and so forth? Silly, redundant question receives the same answer as above.
7. What are the purposes of spirit eyes, spirit ears, or a spirit nose in the spirit world, if spirit beings have such bodily parts? For example, are there sound waves in heaven that convey sounds to spirit ears? If so, is there air in heaven (through which the sound waves propagate)? Are there odors or smells in heaven, and again, does this mean there are chemical compounds propagated by microscopic particles through moving air in heaven? Answered already: all physical things have a spiritual component first before they are made physical. The physical, when separated from the spiritual through death, reverts back to its inanimate, corrupt state; the spirit reverts back to its spirit-only state. This would be considered a lesser state. As physical senses are powerful enhancers, I believe that spirits, once they have experienced the physical, desire it forever. Going back to spirit-only is like a "bondage": like being consigned to a dream world where nothing seems quite substantial or real anymore.
8. If we will have the same appetites and desires in the spirit world that we have in mortality, does this mean we will be hungry and thirsty? May we infer, if the answer is yes, that we will have stomachs and a digestive system to go with them? Joseph Smith was referring to inclinations rather than physical appetites. There is a pov taught, that addictions not repented of in this life will afflict the spirit in the spirit world. But I believe that this is mistaken; because we are told that death releases spirits from all mortal care and sorrow, etc. Thinking, however, is its own particular sort of pleasure and pain. "As a man thinketh, so is he." We believe what we think. And believing bad things makes us "feel" bad. Spirits would be afflicted by all manner of addictive thinking.
9. Will we have sexual desires, and if so, does this mean our spirit bodies are or will be anatomically comparable to physical bodies in that regard as well? If so, does that mean that spirit bodies can unite to perform reproductive functions--and are designed or formed to do so? Astral projection allows dreaming spirits to have virtual/spiritual sexual intercourse. So I am told by a friend who dabbled with this as a foolish youth. I am sure that spirits, once separated from their carnal bodies, desire to enjoy the physical sensations that their bodies provided. And to what extent a spirit person can enjoy the memory of the physical in a virtual way, is probably according to the imaginative powers and talents of the individual. But actual sex with procreation, no.
10. If spirit bodies are indeed male and female and have the same appetites and desires as physical bodies, including desires oriented toward reproduction, wouldn't this mean that spirit beings should be able to reproduce in the same way (or at least in a very similar way) as physical human beings reproduce? Is there any precedent for this in LDS doctrine? The doctrine is that by attaining to the highest degree of glory in the CK, only then can married couples procreate like God the Father and his wives do. Lesser degrees of glory, even lesser within the CK, cannot procreate spiritually, i.e. cannot have spirit children. I think the doctrine is fallacious because it is illogical. You cannot have "everything restored to its proper and perfect frame" without even "a hair of the head being lost" in the resurrection, and somehow wind up with neutered males and infertile females, etc. I've never believed that "marriage" relations are reserved only for the CK's highest degree of glory: I believe that the doctrine is speaking about becoming as God Is. All lesser immortals enjoy sex at their respective degrees of glory; but their progeny are not the "stuff" of "gods". The doctrine is not revealed in enough detail to stipulate anything beyond the highest degree of glory in the CK. All else is speculation....

[wenglund]

In terms of spirits having bodies, let's look at some biblical passages:

"And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him." (1 Kings 22:21; see also 2 Chronicles 18:20)

Evidently, this spirit had a mouth with which to speak and legs upon which to stand.

"Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up: It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying..." (Job 4: 15-16)

Here, the spirit stood and had an image, the exact form of which Job couldn't say. At the very least, the spirit must have had some sort of "body" in order to be seen.

"The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him." (Zechariah 12:1; see also Hebrews 1:7)

This suggests to me that the spirits of man have form, and thus bodies that were formed.

"And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear." (Matthew 14:26; Mark 6:49)

This suggests to me that the disciples believed that spirits have the form of men. SAme with this passage:

"And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit." (Lk 24:36-37)

"And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him. And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host..." (Gen. 32;1-2)

Angels, or the hosts of heaven, evidently have bodies else they couldn't be seen.

"And the *** saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand..."(Numbers 22:23, see also verses 24-35; 1 Chronicles 21:15-16)

Angels evidently have legs to stand on and hands with which to hold swords, and touch:

"And as he lay and slept under a juniper tree, behold, then an angel touched him."(1 Kings 19:5, see also verse 5)

"And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah..."(Judges 6:11, see also verses 12 & 21-22; 13:all)

I could go on, but hopefully this will suffice.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-