Spirit Bodies

[Rob Bowman]

Nofear,

You wrote:

Instead, they can worry about questions like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Actually, evangelicals do not worry about this question or even treat it seriously. The question originated as a barb against Christian theology, not as a question discussed within Christian theology.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You wrote:

How can this be a problem? Jesus, with His physical body of flesh and bones was able to pass through physical barriers (doors? walls?).

John 20:19 ¶ Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

• • •

26 ¶ And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

CFR that this or any other biblical passage says anything about Jesus' physical body passing through physical barriers.

[Calm]

CFR that this or any other biblical passage says anything about Jesus' physical body passing through physical barriers.

How would you suggest he got into the room suddenly, the doors being shut?

[CV75]

the soul or spirit is incorporeal

..or relatively incorporeal?

[LeSellers]

CFR that this or any other biblical passage says anything about Jesus' physical body passing through physical barriers.

Mark 16:14; Luke 24:35~43; John 20:19~25

There is no explicit statement: "Jesus passed through the closed doors (or windows) into the room", but it is clear that He got in there somehow other than what we would consider the "normal" means of communication.

That is was His resurrected body is made clear a few days later when "Doubting" Thomans was also among them.

I have my own theory about what happened, but it involves just as much "supernatural" as anything you would come up with to explain it.

Lehi

[Calm]

..or relatively incorporeal?

Explain what you mean by "relatively incorporeal"?

[Nofear]

Actually, evangelicals do not worry about this question or even treat it seriously. The question originated as a barb against Christian theology, not as a question discussed within Christian theology.

I know. When one posits an immaterial matter they can basically proceed to say pretty much anything about it -- exemplified by the question like how many angles can dance on the point of an pin. It's not that the question can't be asked, but as you say, they simply don't worry about it, sweeping the philosophical dust under the rug as it were. But I can't be harshly critical of such an approach... it's a double edged sword that wouldn't play all that nice with Mormonism either (hence the emoticon in my original post).

[Vance]

Vance,

You wrote:

CFR that this or any other biblical passage says anything about Jesus' physical body passing through physical barriers.

WOW!!!

Throwing Jesus' miraculous entrance into the room under the anti-Mormon bus.

Edited to add,

"The stone was not rolled away from the tomb so Jesus could get out. He was able to walk through walls (John 20:19) in his resurrected body."

http://christianity.about.com/od/biblestorysummaries/p/theresurrection.htm

And,

"Jesus' body was able to go through walls and He could disappear."

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/bible-questions/answer00484-did-jesus-physically-and-spiritually-ascend-to-heaven.html

Edited September 6, 2011 by Vance

[Calm]

WOW!!!

Throwing Jesus' miraculous entrance into the room under the anti-Mormon bus.

Please wait until he explains more before criticizing. He may not be saying what you think he is saying.

Edited September 6, 2011 by calmoriah

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

So, about.com is your answer to my CFR?

[CV75]

Explain what you mean by "relatively incorporeal"?

From D&C 131:7, spirit matter is more fine or pure than physical matter. The incorporeal nature of the spirit is only relatively so compared to the rough nature of physical matter in the fallen world. This is why we cannot see it unless we are "quickened."

[Vance]

Vance,

So, about.com is your answer to my CFR?

No, it is "christianity.about.com". Are they not Christian?

[CV75]

Yet another way to look at the spirit and the body occupying the same space:

Helium and latex in a balloon occupy the same “floating balloon” space.

The rum and the cake in a tiramisu occupy the same “tiramisu space”.

Some 65B solar neutrinos per second pass through and temporarily share every square centimeter of the earth facing the sun, even if they are only passing through space within a solid.

Bodies of the relatively same kind of material seemingly cannot occupy the same space at the same time, but bodies of different kinds can. They can also be united or connected in such a way that the resulting entity permits both components occupy the same space. And then the space of one thing may only be the sum of its components' spaces. So spirit and the element can occupy the same space as their resulting life form.

[Vance]

Is it true Christians can walk through walls by the power of the holy spirit?

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_true_Christians_can_walk_through_walls_by_the_power_of_the_holy_spirit#ixzz1XCVTzTFl'>http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_true_Christians_can_walk_through_walls_by_the_power_of_the_holy_spirit#ixzz1XCVTzTFl

. . .

In the Bible, Jesus did.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_true_Christians_can_walk_through_walls_by_the_power_of_the_holy_spirit

And,

Walking Through Walls (and Other Christ-like Practices)

. . .

But I have to confess that my very favorite part of the story is when Jesus walks through the walls of the locked room. And he does it not once, but twice! John writes, “Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them.”

http://www.firstchurchcambridge.org/sermons/show/182

[Calm]

From D&C 131:7, spirit matter is more fine or pure than physical matter. The incorporeal nature of the spirit is only relatively so compared to the rough nature of physical matter in the fallen world. This is why we cannot see it unless we are "quickened."

I don't believe LDS usually use the term "incorporeal" in regards to spirit matter, OTOH, those like Mr. Bowman who do use it really mean "incorporeal" and not a 'more pure matter', but rather immaterial.

But if Mr. Bowman is using the term "incorporeal" in some other fashion than "immaterial", I am sure he will now clarify.

[Calm]

Vance,

So, about.com is your answer to my CFR?

At the very least it is one interpretation. If your interpretation is not the same, it would be more helpful to know what it is rather than you just stating that the other is wrong.

[Calm]

The rum and the cake in a tiramisu occupy the same “tiramisu space”.

I prefer orange juice pound cake like Grandma use to make:

http://www.cooks.com/rec/view/0,196,144166-224193,00.html

[CV75]

I don't believe LDS usually use the term "incorporeal" in regards to spirit matter, OTOH, those like Mr. Bowman who do use it really mean "incorporeal" and not a 'more pure matter', but rather immaterial.

I'm just exploring whether there is any room for the "relatively" part in their understanding of incorporeal.

"Casting out" is a physical activity accomplished by the power of God. Evil spirits could not be cast out if they were perfectly immaterial, for they could not physically occupy a person's body in the first place.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You wrote:

No, it is "christianity.about.com". Are they not Christian?

Here is the CFR: "CFR that this or any other biblical passage says anything about Jesus' physical body passing through physical barriers."

The CFR is a call for a biblical reference.

[CV75]

I prefer orange juice pound cake like Grandma use to make:

http://www.cooks.com...-224193,00.html

...tres leches...

[Vance]

Vance,

You wrote:

Here is the CFR: "CFR that this or any other biblical passage says anything about Jesus' physical body passing through physical barriers."

The CFR is a call for a biblical reference.

Classic moving of the goal posts. LOL!!!

I already provided the Biblical references.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Vance

[Calm]

...tres leches...

Sorry, Grandma didn't make that.

Mr. Bowman, I would very much appreciate an answer to my question on how you interpret the passage where Jesus appears though the doors were shut.

Honestly I am getting a little impatient...probably because I am waiting as well for a truck to arrive to pump out our septic tank so we can use our toilets again. You can understand why that might make me kind of antsy and it would be kind of you to relieve any such feelings I might be experiencing at the moment. Thank you in advance.

[LeSellers]

Classic moving of the goal posts. LOL!!!

I already provide the Biblical references.

As did calmoriah (I believe) and I, even though neither of us is you/Vance.

The question is, "If Jesus did not 'pass through a solid wall' to enter the room where the ten Apostles were, how did He get inside?"

Lehi

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

No, a request for "this or any other biblical passage" means a request for a biblical passage!

Your "biblical references" say nothing about how Jesus got into the room. They don't say or imply that his body passed through a wall. Therefore, the CFR has not been answered.

Jesus appeared suddenly in a room with locked doors. No doubt this was done in some supernatural way. However, the text does not describe how this occurred. If Jesus' body was truly physical, as you and I both affirm, then it doesn't make sense to say that his physical body passed through a physical wall. Such an explanation also assumes a rather Newtonian or even Euclidean framework that would limit the movements of Jesus' body to three spatial dimensions. The evidence of the Gospel narratives suggest this is a mistake. For example, Jesus was sitting with the two men on their journey to Emmaus when he suddenly disappeared (Luke 16:31). This doesn't mean that he stood up and walked through the wall; it means that his body simply vanished from the room. The best explanation for this phenomenon is that Christ was able to "move" in ways that transcended our three "normal" spatial dimensions. It also means that at no time are we required to conclude that part of Jesus' body and part of a wall occupied the same space at the same time.

[Rob Bowman]

calmoriah,

You wrote:

Mr. Bowman, I would very much appreciate an answer to my question on how you interpret the passage where Jesus appears though the doors were shut.

I have done so.

You wrote:

Honestly I am getting a little impatient...probably because I am waiting as well for a truck to arrive to pump out our septic tank so we can use our toilets again. You can understand why that might make me kind of antsy and it would be kind of you to relieve any such feelings I might be experiencing at the moment. Thank you in advance.

No fun at all. My sympathies. I'd probably be crankier than you in that situation.