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Something On My Mind: Marriage


Messenger

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I know that marriage is ordained of God, and I also very much believe in the proclamation of the family. Nothing makes me happier than when I see a great marriage, when two people really love each other, it really works. I totally understand those that have experienced it and want to encourage others to have it, as they have experienced it. But, I would have you consider this. There are people in the world that, for some reason or another, probably won’t have the chance to marry in this life. Even some that have tried, and realized they couldn’t. You can say they can overcome anything if you want, but I have spent time assisting the handicapped, mentally ill, and others with disabilities and find it difficult for me to comprehend that everyone can be married while having these disabilities. Has anybody reading this post ever talked with someone with severe autism? I ask you ... do you think you would marry someone and sacrifice that joy between two people that could not be found or even understood by someone that has that level of autism?

Those that put off marriage and don’t have a disability of some kind should consider marriage and are indeed robbing themselves of incredible joy. However, many disabilities that may preclude marriage are non-physical and can’t be seen or even known by the average person. So, I would say to most, be careful of who you judge. It might be better to leave it up to God & the individual instead. I have severe ADHD. I am over 40 years old and I was just diagnosed with it just 4 months ago. My ADHD makes it nearly impossible to keep any kind of friendship, let alone marriage. Further, looking back after years of undiagnosed ADHD, problems on my mission, schooling at BYU, my career, and a marriage that ended in divorce, finally it makes more sense. Yet, you would look at me in church, participating in class, and never think that I had anything that would give me such problems and roadblocks in life – its very much a private struggle which I engage everyday. At the same time I can testify that I have received the principle of compensation, and have indeed felt the actual Celestial love God has for me. So I continue in faith, paying my tithing, keeping every commandment, fulfilling every calling, to the best of my ability.

Unlike other individuals and groups in and out of the church, I do not seek and change in the church's position on marriage; however, I would like its members to consider that those with disabilities probably work harder at everything, including simple friendship, let alone marriage. Further we look forward and have hope of the promise by Lorenzo Snow, and repeated by President Hunter in 1994 ... “The prophets of the past have spoken also of those who may not have opportunity to marry in this life. President Lorenzo Snow said: “There is no Latter-day Saint who dies after having lived a faithful life who will lose anything because of having failed to do certain things when opportunities were not furnished him or her. In other words, if a young man or a young woman has no opportunity of getting married, and they live faithful lives up to the time of their death, they will have all the blessings, exaltation, and glory that any man or woman will have who had this opportunity and improved it. That is sure and positive’ “I believe President Snow’s statement to be true.” .

For those that would like to learn more about disabilities, I encourage you to visit the churches disabilities website which is being expanded: http://lds.org/disability?lang=eng.

Disabilities on the church website include the following:

1. Autism.

2. Chronic Illness

3. Hearing Loss and Deafness

4. Intellectual Disability

5. Learning Disability

6. Memory Loss

7. Mental Illness

8. Physical Disabilities

9. Speech and Language Disorders

10. Vision Loss and Blindness.

People with most types of disabilities cannot be cured or fixed; it is a lifelong challenge. However, with appropriate support and accommodation, people with learning disabilities can accomplish much. I would ask for your support, rather than your condemnation. Learn more about ADHD on my website at www.adhdbeta.com .

Edited by Messenger
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Hello Messenger...

Thank you for sharing with us... I'm so sorry you struggle each day, and want to encourage you to continue on because your quote from Pres Snow is absolutely true... and similar quotes from apostles and leaders today, assure us that if we live the gospel faithfully every day, no blessing will be withheld from us... You may have to wait a while to realize all the blessings you desire, but realize them you will.

One of my favorite apostles, M. Russell Ballard, spoke at 2001 Women's Conference on the role of women in the Church where he addressed this very question in relation to women who desired to marry but did not have the opportunity for one reason or another... or who desired to bear children but were unable to do so... "Some women do not have the privilege of marrying or rearing children in this life. To the worthy, these blessings will come later." As one who does not have children, I find this comforting... I am widowed and alone but I do not fear. I am a daughter of God and still have a significant role to play not only here but beyond the veil.

All good wishes... from the beach on a sunny morning... GG

Edited by Garden Girl
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Messenger:

I've been physically disabled for 19 years now. It has been the most challenging thing I've had to deal with. My wife and my Church have given me the emotional strength to carry on, despite my sometimes desire for this life with its constant debilitating pain to be over.

I really do believe that God will make it ALL up to me, and all others who came to this earth, in the next life.

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My husband had the mental level of a 13 year old our entire marriage.

It was not a marriage.

(14 and a half years of marriage before he passed away.)

Neither could I ever leave him and choose a marital relationship with someone, because I would have been the sinner for leaving him, especially in his "descent below all things" and the things he had to struggle with. So I just stayed and raised my children and helped him on a human-being level and also became destroyed inside with my sorrows.

Before I married him (very quick courtship and engagement, oh! I was so young, so naive and so Mormon!), I had NO clue whatsoever about his problems (chalked them up to personality) and they were not disclosed to me by his parents, although they may not have really understood either. He also had no self-awareness of his problems (and never would). As a girl fresh out of young women's, I knew I should look for a return missionary, priesthood holder, etc etc . . . no one had taught me how to gauge mental disability or flat emotional effects etc etc etc and to make informed decisions about such elements in order to best determine my happiest, most love- and gospel-filled life.

I have very little from the church or the gospel that gives me guidance on how to frame this life experience in terms of marriage. I have compassion for my late husband as a son of God and my spiritual brother; I can realize that we all came to this earth to experience, and, boy, did we. Etc.

But I'm sealed to a 13 year old with whom I never had a marital relationship (just a service one), and I have difficulty looking forward to an eternity based on that. I might as well pick a person off the street and say I should have an eternal relationship with them . . . there's simply nothing except our children in common (which is a good reason!) to contemplate a marriage with him . . . I have no evidence of what that would be.

I guess I share this because as Messenger said . . . you don't know what people's struggles are . . . and eternal marriages are rarely neat little boxes with bows on top, even in the best of relationships I would suppose.

I do have a lot of beliefs about the eternal progression of individuals and of humanity that support me even though I still don't really understand what my marital condition will be in time or eternity. And I am NOT one who can possibly be comforted by the saying "all blessings will be mine eventually if I am faithful" . . . I guess because I don't want a blessing, lol . . . I want a man!

Anyway . . . if this helps anyone :).

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Thanks everyone for the comments. Some of you really know what you are talking about - I can relate at least a little. The worst is the judgement from others. I should count my blessings instead of rant. Tonight my oven caught on fire .... Got it put out without any damage to anything else. Kinda got me thinking.

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What scripture is that?

Matthew 19:

11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

12
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from
their
mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive
it,
let him receive
it.

The scripture was talking about marriage, and these verses state that people who can't or are not able to marry, it's okay, they won't be damned for it.

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Maidservant...

I believe that your husband's mind will be perfect beyond the veil... just like those who have lost limbs will have them restored, or some other physical abnormalty or illness, mental or physical, will be made perfect.

I don't believe I'm incorrect in this view, but perhaps your bishop could clarify...

GG

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Maidservant...

I believe that your husband's mind will be perfect beyond the veil... just like those who have lost limbs will have them restored, or some other physical abnormalty or illness, mental or physical, will be made perfect.

I don't believe I'm incorrect in this view, but perhaps your bishop could clarify...

GG

Oh yes, of course, as we all will be :).

The trouble is . . . I don't know him. We did not have a marriage. As mentioned before, it is like picking a random person from the street and saying, I will be married eternally to this person. And perhaps he feels the same way as I do.

So we will see . . . life is just challenging and interesting . . . and it continues forever.

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I agree. I was in the singles group for a few years. That group was like a family and I would say that 75% of the group would never get married and probably shouldn't. They had enough issues trying to take care of themselves. I also know most weren't even thinking of getting married ever. The group was for social reasons and to find the companionship you need in life, but not the marriage kind. I love those people still. I don't want them to be lost in the church either so I try to advocate for them when I can.

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Oh yes, of course, as we all will be :).

The trouble is . . . I don't know him. We did not have a marriage. As mentioned before, it is like picking a random person from the street and saying, I will be married eternally to this person. And perhaps he feels the same way as I do.

So we will see . . . life is just challenging and interesting . . . and it continues forever.

Maidservant, that is true... though, won't it also be that your husband will be totally and perfectly dedicated to you, after this life?

To be quite honest... if I was someone who was unable to get married in this life... I would look forward to knowing that a perfect and awesome person is waiting for me if I did all that I could do, and all that the Lord wanted me to do. =) It really doesn't matter to me if I 'knew' them before... persay... it matters more that they complete the missing part of me, etc.

But I think your husband (and for others, their wife) will be awesome... you just have to wait... pretty much anybody who makes it to the celestial will be someone you could only dream of, I guess, I think =D. But perhaps I'm wrong. Still... if it is true... it'd be good to be with virtually anybody there. =)

Just thoughts, sorry if they are... random XD. It's just, in a way... I feel compelled to say... having to wait isn't a bad thing... because you know you will have the right person =). Hard, yeah... but... I think it is well worth it. But yah never know. And I could be wrong too.

In any case,

Best Wishes,

TAO

Edited by TAO
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Oh yes, of course, as we all will be :).

The trouble is . . . I don't know him. We did not have a marriage. As mentioned before, it is like picking a random person from the street and saying, I will be married eternally to this person. And perhaps he feels the same way as I do.

So we will see . . . life is just challenging and interesting . . . and it continues forever.

About 20 years ago, my dad had a benign tumor of the pituitary gland, basically nothing was left but a sac of goo or something. Some surgery triggered a behavioural change along with blurred vision which is how they found out it was there. For about two weeks between the operations, it was like my dad got totally in touched with his 'feminine' side, suddenly becoming extremely empathetic, emotionally and spiritually expressive (called up the bishop and asked to give his testimony on the Sunday when it wasn't Testimony Meeting...couldn't do it because he was confined to bed though, there was some definite loopiness that went along with the new insightfulness), and outgoing in a dramatically different way. Freaked my siblings out, but my mother and I loved it. My dad is a very generous, hard working, loving man but he is also very egocentric (not selfish, just can't really see the world through other people's eyes) and the idea of crying or expressing emotion probably terrifies him. And while he gives very spiritual blessings, his spirituality just doesn't appear otherwise except through action (he is a very pragmatic man). This was like seeing the other half of his soul. Was completely back to the old man when he woke up from the second surgery....which made that recovery painful for all concerned (he hates staying off his feet, having to get help, etc.) I keep reminding my mother when it gets tough (my dad is a man of action, retirement and ill health is hard on him, which means it is even harder on my mother, the good woman that she is) that she has this to look forward too.

I believe that we really have no clue about what we are like as 'whole' people, that there will be such an added depth to all of us it will almost (but not quite) be like meeting new people. I think the part of us that we are 'best at' or most developed is likely asleep to allow us to grow in other ways. So I think a lot of people are going to be in the situation you are. I can understand how dismaying the idea can be though. OTOH, we probably have also already spent an eternity with our families and friends so perhaps it will be more like we were all playacting in this life and when we get to the next, it will be a sense of taking off our masks and costumes and going home together at the end of the day with our near and dear or stepping back into 'comfortable shoes' after trying out various pairs at the store.....

Edited by calmoriah
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I agree. I was in the singles group for a few years. That group was like a family and I would say that 75% of the group would never get married and probably shouldn't. They had enough issues trying to take care of themselves. I also know most weren't even thinking of getting married ever. The group was for social reasons and to find the companionship you need in life, but not the marriage kind. I love those people still. I don't want them to be lost in the church either so I try to advocate for them when I can.

There are some definite advantages to living in a small town...its weaknesses (everybody knows everyone else's business) are also its strengths if you have caring people involved.

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Just a vew thoughts from a timely article I read today .... Life is better

---------------------------

Ensign » 1984 » November

If Thou Endure It Well

Elder Marvin J. Ashton

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Link: http://lds.org/ensign/1984/11/if-thou-endure-it-well?lang=eng

When tragedy, disappointment, and heartache surface in our lives, it is not unusual for many of us to become self- condemning and resentful. In the stress of the situation we declare, “What have we done to deserve this? Why does the Lord allow this to happen to us?”

Sometimes we spend so much time trying to determine what we did wrong in the past to deserve the unpleasant happenings of the moment that we fail to resolve the challenges of the present. Og Mandino wrote in his book The Greatest Miracle in the World, “If we lock ourselves in a prison of failure and self-pity, we are the only jailers … we have the only key to our freedom.” (New York: Frederick Fell Publishers, 1975, p. 61.) We can let ourselves out of such a prison by turning to the Lord for strength. With His help we can use our trials as stepping-stones. The keys are in our hands.

If we are offended and resentful, can we believe that He is bound to help us in our tragedies and disappointments? This scripture does not tell us how or when this commitment will be effective or realized, but His promise is real and binding. Our challenge is to endure.

When I think of the Savior’s admonition to do cheerfully all things that lie in our power, I think of the father of the prodigal son. The father was heartbroken by the loss and conduct of his wayward son. Yet we have no mention of his lamenting, “Where did I go wrong?” “What have I done to deserve this?” Or, “Where did I fail?”

Instead he seemed to have endured without bitterness his son’s misconduct and welcomed him back with love. “For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.” (Luke 15:24.)

When family members disappoint us, we especially need to learn endurance. As long as we exercise love, patience, and understanding, even when no progress is apparent, we are not failing. We must keep trying.

As we viewed on television some of the Olympic games held this summer in Los Angeles, we thrilled at the abilities of these fine young athletes from all over the world. One might easily compare these races and contests of the Olympics with the great race in which we are all involved—the race for eternal life. One gold-medal winner said his success was achieved by being able to endure the pain of commitment and self-discipline.

To become a winner in the race for eternal life requires effort—constant work, striving, and enduring well with God’s help. But the key is that we must take it just one step at a time. The ingredient that is essential in learning to endure is consistent effort. In our race for eternal life, pain and obstacles will confront all of us. We may experience heartaches, sorrow, death, sins, weakness, disasters, physical illness, pain, mental anguish, unjust criticism, loneliness, or rejection. How we handle these challenges determines whether they become stumbling stones or building blocks. To the valiant these challenges make progress and development possible.

Friends and loved ones often offer strength and support when our own resolve is weak. In turn, our own strength and capacity will be doubled when we help others endure. I pray that God will help us to endure well, with purpose and power. When we so do, the meaningful declaration in 2 Tim. 4:7 will take on a new dimension:

“I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.”

When heartaches, tragedies, disappointments, injury, unusual attention, fame, or excessive prosperity become part of our lives, our challenges and responsibilities will be to endure them well. God will assist us in our quest to conquer, triumph, and continue if we humbly rededicate ourselves to the meaningful declaration “We have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things.” (A of F 1:13.) God does live. Jesus is the Christ. One of His marks of greatness, His endurance, stands as a constant beacon for us to emulate. During His earthly sojourn He endured well as He suffered agony and rejection in their deepest forms. I bear my witness that God will help us to endure as we put forth the effort to live His teachings, seek His guidance, and keep His commandments. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

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Just thought I would let everyone know that I understand the push to marriage by the church. One of the drawbacks of ADHD is that we get not only supercritical of ourselves, but often are over sensitive to criticism of others. I've been doing a lot of study on marriage and the church's position with recent concerns over trends that show people are putting it off. After a lot of study and prayer I have found that the concern is directed at our younger people that simply are putting it off for many reasons, none that have to do with their ability to be married. And, while there are many younger people who are perfectly capable of being married, there are some that are not, and should put it off. This has been a lesson for me, one that I thought I had learned: We should always do what the Lord wants us to do. Not necessarily what everyone else wants us to do because they may not misinterpret the churches direction correctly. I feel blessed to have this knowledge and testimony. And, it is certainly possible that someday I may learn to deal with my ADHD and also find someone with the compassion enough for me when I don’t, that I may actually fulfill my ultimate desire while here on earth. Until then, there is always plenty to work on!

:rolleyes:

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm not a mormon and add this out of sincere earnest as marriage is a discussion that strongly moves me to trying to understand mormons and the LDS faith.

I saw your topic and it wasn't what I thought I was going to read about but it still brings up the question as to why mormons believe marriage is a MUST.

1 Corinthians 7 is a full chapter dedicated by Paul talking about how marriage is actually not necessary and to remain unmarried is better for the soul. Luke 18:29-30 is something Jesus says concerning it as well. But I encourage those struggling with marriage to try to understand what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 7...

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I'm not a mormon and add this out of sincere earnest as marriage is a discussion that strongly moves me to trying to understand mormons and the LDS faith.

I saw your topic and it wasn't what I thought I was going to read about but it still brings up the question as to why mormons believe marriage is a MUST.

1 Corinthians 7 is a full chapter dedicated by Paul talking about how marriage is actually not necessary and to remain unmarried is better for the soul. Luke 18:29-30 is something Jesus says concerning it as well. But I encourage those struggling with marriage to try to understand what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 7...

I would say that most of us that want to be married have seen the truth of it when it works well. For me, especially because I have ADHD, I typically could care less what anybody thinks about me, or my situation, especially if I feel they are condemning me or judging me. The real issue and I think I can speak for ordinary members as a whole, we simply believe in the truth of marriage. For me, I'm not out trying to change the church or the "rules" to fit me, because I believe those rules are true. Further, as I am growing older in the church, I see the patterns of family in other organizations. This is true with the ward family, my home teachers, and old friends. It is my personal belief that the concept of family is not only true between a normal husband and wife organization, but also the concept goes on further than that - after all, we call each other brothers and sisters in our church. And I also call Jesus Christ by his name, but also realize he is my brother, and his Father in Heaven is mine as well. I have also learned that it really is true that when we strive for something that is true, we can gain the strength to attain it, if not in this life, in the life after.

I now know, after this thread has been posted, and the personal study that it has generated, that I am quite alright in my position in life at this time. And, I have been given good cause to have hope for the future. And if that be from the prayers of those that have read this post and have felt empathy from my situation, and have even sent me private messages of support, I wish to thank you for the gift of hope that you have given me.

I have come to know that I am extremely blessed, and while all of us cant have everything all the time, is there a more excellent possession than to know that you are being guided every day, are inspired everyday, and actually know of love that exists between yourself and Heavenly Father? Some might say it is wrong to want to be a part of something like the truth of marriage if it is unattainable. I would say that nothing is unattainable if it is right - given time.

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About 20 years ago, my dad had a benign tumor of the pituitary gland, basically nothing was left but a sac of goo or something. Some surgery triggered a behavioural change along with blurred vision which is how they found out it was there. For about two weeks between the operations, it was like my dad got totally in touched with his 'feminine' side, suddenly becoming extremely empathetic, emotionally and spiritually expressive (called up the bishop and asked to give his testimony on the Sunday when it wasn't Testimony Meeting...couldn't do it because he was confined to bed though, there was some definite loopiness that went along with the new insightfulness), and outgoing in a dramatically different way. Freaked my siblings out, but my mother and I loved it. My dad is a very generous, hard working, loving man but he is also very egocentric (not selfish, just can't really see the world through other people's eyes) and the idea of crying or expressing emotion probably terrifies him. And while he gives very spiritual blessings, his spirituality just doesn't appear otherwise except through action (he is a very pragmatic man). This was like seeing the other half of his soul. Was completely back to the old man when he woke up from the second surgery....which made that recovery painful for all concerned (he hates staying off his feet, having to get help, etc.) I keep reminding my mother when it gets tough (my dad is a man of action, retirement and ill health is hard on him, which means it is even harder on my mother, the good woman that she is) that she has this to look forward too.

What an amazing story Cal. Thanks for sharing that. I've also read about people who sustained seemingly mild brain damage on their frontal lobe and actually lost the ability to feel or express love (an area in which they were previously normal.) I think you raise a good point that we really don't know what our spirits may have really been like because we can be incredibly limited by seemingly small brain functions--a mortal limitation but certainly not eternal.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Hello, this is my first post. There is a woman I have been dating. She is the one and only i want to marry. However I am not a member of the LDS and she is converting. If you are correct that anything is possable. How can I possably do this if I could never enter the tempel. Also i do not see myself ever joining the LDS.

My love for her is so increadibly strong. Since she has been baptized, she has recoiled from me, even though she sais she still loves me.

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Hello, this is my first post. There is a woman I have been dating. She is the one and only i want to marry. However I am not a member of the LDS and she is converting. If you are correct that anything is possable. How can I possably do this if I could never enter the tempel. Also i do not see myself ever joining the LDS.

My love for her is so increadibly strong. Since she has been baptized, she has recoiled from me, even though she sais she still loves me.

Hello hammermil... okay, I'll ask the obvious...

Have you studied our faith? Taken the "discussions"? Have you knelt and prayed for guidance? When I say "studied" I mean really gone to legitimate Church websites and obtained accurate information... and met with missionaries from her ward.

What is it that makes you think you could never be LDS? Yes, our values and behavior standards are quite high if one really lives the gospel... but that's not hard... I had to overcome some Word of Wisdom problems when I reactivated. And I've always been an honest, ethical person... and true to my husband...

And I gained a testimony of the truthfulness of the doctrine/BoM many years ago... I believe that God talks to his children just like always, i.e., through his prophets and via heavenly messengers just like he always did. Joseph's first vision, and the Angel Moroni appearing to him didn't strike me as odd in the least.

So... I hope you won't say "never"... who knows, you may surprise yourself, and your lady...

All good wishes... from the beautiful central Oregon coast... GG

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Hello, this is my first post. There is a woman I have been dating. She is the one and only i want to marry. However I am not a member of the LDS and she is converting. If you are correct that anything is possable. How can I possably do this if I could never enter the tempel. Also i do not see myself ever joining the LDS.

My love for her is so increadibly strong. Since she has been baptized, she has recoiled from me, even though she sais she still loves me.

If your sweetheart was recently baptized I would expectd that she is trying to do all she can to be a good Latter-day Saint. It is interesting that you would love a young lady that has chosen to join the Church of Jesus Christ. Do you respect her decision? If so, does that mean you would at least consider hearing about what she has committed herself?

If you love her, support her commitment to the Church, attending meetings, prayer, and scripture reading. Think about how you can support her in these endeavors. In doing so, your love for her will deepen and you will be closer to God. If it so happens that your relationship as a potential husband and wife disolves, then you will know that it was because there is someone else for both of you. However, if your mutual love grows and blossoms you will marry in the knowledge that she is a committed LDS and you, her husband, respect so much that you support her in her walk with God.

Consider going to church with her, praying with her, and reading the scriptures with her. Be comfortable talking about God. I would caution you that if you attempt to tear down her religion, she will probably drop you very quickly.

Lastly, know that our Father in Heaven knows you personally. He knows your heart and he knows what is best for you and her. Trust him to lead you. Find the faith to believe in him and trust him and you will find peace and happiness.

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You also need to be aware that interfaith marriages have a very high rate of failure. It is not easy to blend two people of different belief systems. You also need to be aware that to be a committed, devout LDS requires a lot of time and if you choose to marry, you will need to work hard at not being resentful of time and resources she will want to devote to her faith. There is also the issue of children and how they will be raised. Honestly I don't know of any very happy marriages where the wife is LDS and the husband is not. In all of the cases I've known personally the husband has ended up demanding she give up most of her Sundays to spend with him instead of at church, argued about her paying tithing and other commitments she has made and she has ended up resenting him, leaving neither happy with the result. OTOH I have heard of a few cases where the wife has decided she wants a temple marriage and when her husband does not convert, she leaves him (if this is the sole reason then it is against the Church's teachings, but it unfortunately happens).

I am not trying to desuade you from marrying her, just that if you two are going to make it work you need to be realistic, plan ahead as muchnas possible and be honest with each other...if you really aren't going to convert you need to make this clear to her as she needs to be honestvwith you whether or not she believes you will eventually convert and how she will reactnif you don't.

Edited by calmoriah
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Hello hammermil... okay, I'll ask the obvious...

Have you studied our faith? Taken the "discussions"? Have you knelt and prayed for guidance? When I say "studied" I mean really gone to legitimate Church websites and obtained accurate information... and met with missionaries from her ward.

What is it that makes you think you could never be LDS? Yes, our values and behavior standards are quite high if one really lives the gospel... but that's not hard... I had to overcome some Word of Wisdom problems when I reactivated. And I've always been an honest, ethical person... and true to my husband...

And I gained a testimony of the truthfulness of the doctrine/BoM many years ago... I believe that God talks to his children just like always, i.e., through his prophets and via heavenly messengers just like he always did. Joseph's first vision, and the Angel Moroni appearing to him didn't strike me as odd in the least.

So... I hope you won't say "never"... who knows, you may surprise yourself, and your lady...

All good wishes... from the beautiful central Oregon coast... GG

Yes i have, i have met with missionarys, my bishop, and the stake president. I have read the BOM 2 times and have prayed extensively. I have proposed many questions to the leaders of the ward and have never got an answer. I have had a vision from God. It was revield to me that this is not the truth.

To me, the vision from God and all the contradicitons in the Church are just to much to say I can join.

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