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The Perfect "Public" School System


cinepro

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Theoretically, it's a state issue, but the feds have really jumped in with sea boots.

The case cinepro mentioned is but one example (the earlier opinion another) where the whole of USmerica has been forced to kowtow to the whims of the US Dept of the NEA*.

* When Carter established the Dep't of "Education", the NEA bragged "we have our own department now." And they did, in return for their unstinting support of the NEA leadership.

The 7% of money states get for schools levereges vastly greater amount because it all comes with strings, nay, howsers, attached.

It is conceivable, and extremeley unlikely, that a state could reject the money and go it alone, but even then, there would be mandates like the Kansas City high school and its olympic sized swimming pool, ordered by a federal judge, along with a judicially imposed tax increase to support it, because he thought it would improve the scholastic achievements of the inner-city students. It didn't work (and no amount of money would have), but KC is still stuck paying the bonds.

I hope that answers your question. There's more (much more), but this may suffice.

Lehi

This doesn't really seem to get to the point of my question. The facts are:

  • Most Mormon kids in Utah go to public schools
  • The state government has a lot of control over the Utah public schools
  • The LDS Church has a lot of influence with the state government

The heart of the question is if there is a huge problem with public schools, and if the Bretheren agree with your point of view on the matter, why doesn't the church take a more assertive stand and encourage the state to do something? Surely you aren't saying that they won't take a principled stand for the kids because they want the federal money to support the current inefficient, evil school system?

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Mola Ram Suda Ram:

No Child Left Behind is still in effect. Any public school for whatever reason that fails to make 2 consecutive years advancement on private company produced, publicly administered test faces having it teachers fired or relocated, and the principal removed. In my state that includes the developmentally delayed, and autistic. IOW someones pay check is dependent on how well someone else does.

That you do well is fine and good. More power to you.

I can measure dollars, I can measure widged. What I can't measure is how well in a given year, or small group of years, and a group of kids do by how much I pay(or don't pay) the teacher. There are too many independ variables.

Instead I propose we judge teachers based on how many of their student go on to lead healthy relatively happy lives. By that measure public education is not without its problems and disapointments a rousing success.

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The heart of the question is if there is a huge problem with public schools, and if the Bretheren agree with your point of view on the matter, why doesn't the church take a more assertive stand and encourage the state to do something? Surely you aren't saying that they won't take a principled stand for the kids because they want the federal money to support the current inefficient, evil school system?

I can only guess.

Based on history, the Saints don't want to hear this message, so, other than in small, quiet discussions, they don't say much about it. Too much information can be destructive when minds are made up.

When the Saints stop listening, the Brethren stop speaking. We see it in the area of Preparedness (there have been no conference talks on the subject for three or four years now). Does that mean there is nothing to prepare for against? I doubt it strongly. The Saints just are not listening. From now on, according to one conversation I know of, the Lord will preach His own sermons on preparedness.

Those who have ears to hear will pay attention and try to help others see the facts and make rational choices based on higher values.

There are two other reasons. Utah’s constitution requires gctf-welfare schools through the federally imposed (and unconstitutional) Blaine Amendment. The article (entitled “An Ordinance”) requires federal validation of any change to this section. It also applies to Plural Marriage, btw, so my assertion that Plural Marriage and gctf-welfare schools were imposed on the Saints in 1896 is born out by the “enabling act” that accepted the constitution of Utah and made Utah a state. There is zero chance that this would pass a Senate dominated by NEA interests, even if the Utah legislature were to bring it up.

Second, though, as I pointed out, there is very little the individual states can do to escape the clutches of the federal government in matters of education (or anything else, for that matter). Witness Arkansas' attempt to enforce federal law according to provisions in that very law. Many federal courts are lined up behind the Southern Poverty Law Centert to fight them (as well as Arizona and four or five other states), and this is to enforce a federal law, not even one of their own making.

Not only are there court opinions that force the states to take certain actions, but there are federal laws that pre-empt state acts, but there are federal monies derived from the people in the state through taxation, and those people want (however ignorantly) "their" money back. So if a governor were to say, "No, Washington, keep you money, we'll do it our own way," the people would say, "But it's our money. You're just sending it somewhere else."

So, even if the Brethren were inclined to use their influence to change this situation, they could not get anything of true value (not the hardware store) done. They'd be overridden by activists in the FedDepEd who want to control what each child learns.

Mussolini used to brag that at any time, of any day, he knew exactly what every child in Italy was learning and which page in the textbook he was reading, because the state (in Italy, "l'état, c'ètait lui") was in absolute control over the curriculum. We are not far from that point in USmerica.

Lehi

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Mola Ram Suda Ram:

No Child Left Behind is still in effect. Any public school for whatever reason that fails to make 2 consecutive years advancement on private company produced, publicly administered test faces having it teachers fired or relocated, and the principal removed. In my state that includes the developmentally delayed, and autistic. IOW someones pay check is dependent on how well someone else does.

No argument here.

That you do well is fine and good. More power to you.

Indeed. But it is better for people to do good than to do poorly.

I can measure dollars, I can measure widged. What I can't measure is how well in a given year, or small group of years, and a group of kids do by how much I pay(or don't pay) the teacher. There are too many independ variables.

I don't think this is true. I think you can measure a teachers performance. You can always measure performance. The key is that "better test scores = more money" is not the way.

Instead I propose we judge teachers based on how many of their student go on to lead healthy relatively happy lives. By that measure public education is not without its problems and disapointments a rousing success.

I have no idea how you would actually do this. It is a nice idea but there is absolutely no way to qualify this because if you do find out that "their student didn't go on to lead healthy relatively happy lives" it would be way to late to do something about it. Beside there are a bazillion reasons why they might not live happy healthy lives that have nothing what so ever to do with their education.

And the idea of autistic kids, they and other special needs students, would not need to meet the same requirements as other kids.

Like I said there needs to be some sort of auditing that is directly tied to the teachers performance that is independent of the students. Though, that aspect is important and should not be left out, it just should not be the determining factor that it is now.

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So, even if the Brethren were inclined to use their influence to change this situation, they could not get anything of true value (not the hardware store) done. They'd be overridden by activists in the FedDepEd who want to control what each child learns.

I'm guessing that if the Brethren had bad feelings towards public education, the first thing they would do is stop building seminary buildings right next door to public schools.

Either way, sometimes the Brethren might not say something because the saints aren't ready for it. But other times, it might be because they don't think it. Thank goodness some members of the Church are able to divine the difference between the two, because it could get very confusing.

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Government-controlled, tax funded welfare schools.

Lehi

The ultimate question in this is who controls the government and the "tax funds"?

We have a very pro-active Bishop in our stake who sits on our local school board (and has done so for years). He has encouraged us from the pulpit to similarly seek local elective office so we can affect change, and he shared a letter that he received from the First Presidency commending him for his participation in local politics.

But are our public schools beyond hope? Have they been irretrievably hijacked by unions and other special interests? Sometimes I think so.

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I'm guessing that if the Brethren had bad feelings towards public education, the first thing they would do is stop building seminary buildings right next door to public schools.

Rather much the contrary.

The origins of seminary are wholly based on the evils of gctf-welfare schools. Granite High School in Magna, Utah, was the first to get a seminary. The Brethren, after having lost the battle to get parents to use the stake academies (and every stake was required to have one in the 1880s and earlier on to the 1920s, aIr), finally determined that the lure of other people's money (coveting) to pay for education (such as it was/is) was too great a temptation for the Saints to overcome. So, when the LDS students in the mining community started mimicking their "gentile" peers by smoking, swearing, and using alcohol, they created the Seminary system to combat those evils.

If we were to follow this logic to its rational conclusion, LDS mothers would be bundling their nine year olds up every morning at 6:00am to go to seminary because it's in elementary school where children learn to swear, take drugs, and smoke nowadays. But I doubt those mothers would follow that counsel, either.

Either way, sometimes the Brethren might not say something because the saints aren't ready for it. But other times, it might be because they don't think it.

This time, since there have been dozens, perhaps hundreds, of talks and statements on the question, it is the first, not the second.

Those talks include some by Brigham Young, at the very outset of Horace Mann's attack on families, by John Taylor who took the post of Territorial Superintendant of Schools to help assure there was not too much Mormon bashing going on by the frequently federally appointed teachers, and every prophet from their day to ours. Some were more explicit, others less so, but it would be a gross misstatement to say "[the Brethren] didn't think it".

Lehi

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The ultimate question in this is who controls the government and the "tax funds"?

We have a very pro-active Bishop in our stake who sits on our local school board (and has done so for years). He has encouraged us from the pulpit to similarly seek local elective office so we can affect change, and he shared a letter that he received from the First Presidency commending him for his participation in local politics.

You are getting close to answering a long-posed question. Not quite there, but on the cusp, perhaps.

Lehi

P.S.: No, I will not identify the question. I've waited long enough that someone on the side of gctf-welfare schools should at least try to answer it, since there have been so many allusions to it in the past few hours, and then months and years ago. LS

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LDS influence in Utah is no different than Baptist control in Georgia, Non-denominational Christian control in Texas, Lutheran control in Minnesota, Catholic control in Boston...

In fact the early efforts at public schools in America were community schools. Standards were in the form of popular curricula like McGuffy Readers. Various events in our history have changed the face of schools, like the depression, the sputnik scare and the civil rights movement.

You will not be able to create a "perfect" school system without stepping on someone's toes. The example of the LDS student suing over prayer is a great example. The prayers in that case were being used to preach a particular religion to the detrement of others beliefs.

In a great travesty of justice a New York school for the retarded was denied public funds because their curricula and student body was heavily influenced by their Jewish beliefs. In that case the first amendment warning that the state could not impose a religion was used at the price of suppressing the first amendment right of freedom of religious expression. (Just because the state supported the school was not IMO a de facto establishment of religion).

The bottom line - community schools that reflect community standards, partnered with state and perhaps national curricula standards, are the best/worst compromise we have.

Currently my younger kids are enrolled in an on-line certified school system. They get their socialization from the neighborhood and church. The older ones go to public schools so they can learn to survive in the system before going to college or work.

Ironically the younger kids get more time playing and socializing with their friends now that all of their work gets finished in the morning. Their test scores have improved. Perhaps that is a vote for the ultimate community school. State curricula, public on line teachers and private lives.

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Instead I propose we judge teachers based on how many of their student go on to lead healthy relatively happy lives. By that measure public education is not without its problems and disapointments a rousing success.

That sounds good, but how would it actually work.

You'd have to wait for the kids to grow up before you could assess whether or not a teacher was 'good'. That's way to late to try to determine that. There's got to be some way that measures their effectiveness promptly but is also fair.

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The flip side of the "LDS control Utah" coin is to bar the LDS from political office and influencial board positions in their own state and community.

I've lived in several states including three in the Southeast where protestant Christianity holds strong sway in government and policy. Never have I lived in a place where the secular establishment complained so much about separation of church and state as I have in Utah. That isn't just a red herring its a red spermwhale.

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The flip side of the "LDS control Utah" coin is to bar the LDS from political office and influencial board positions in their own state and community.

I've lived in several states including three in the Southeast where protestant Christianity holds strong sway in government and policy. Never have I lived in a place where the secular establishment complained so much about separation of church and state as I have in Utah. That isn't just a red herring its a red spermwhale.

I will go one step further and say that that phrase is abuse.

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That sounds good, but how would it actually work.

You'd have to wait for the kids to grow up before you could assess whether or not a teacher was 'good'. That's way to late to try to determine that. There's got to be some way that measures their effectiveness promptly but is also fair.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/ucla-faculty-experts-advisory-168510.aspx

An easy way to evaluate the effectiveness of a teacher assessment methodology is to observe the degree to which the teachers unions complain about it. They're directly proportional.

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An easy way to evaluate the effectiveness of a teacher assessment methodology is to observe the degree to which the teachers unions complain about it. They're directly proportional.

Gasp!! Choke. Wheeze.

I just gave cinepro a Rep Point.

Lehi

Water! Please!

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Mola Ram Suda Ram:

I've always advocated that people do the best they can do, and improve the best they can do.

I think the word you want is quantify.

I can quantify the bottom line on a profit and loss sheet. I can pay you for how much profits you make in a day, a month, or year(s).

I can quantify the number of widgets someone produces. I can pay you for how many widgets you produce in a day, a month, or year(s).

How do I pay you for how well you do in teaching your children until long after the fact? Do I pay you by the job they hold, or how much money they make? What if they decide that they want to join another religion, or have no religion at all? What if despite your best efforts they go on to committ illegal or immoral acts. Do we demand the money back?

Say I decide to pay you this year based on how well you taught your children the previous year. People aren't widget. You can't pour in information into the top of their heads, and expect them to know it. It most always talk many years for people especially children to actually process inform into their long term memory. They neither have the brain wiring nor patience to do it. Until then it is just memorize enough for the test and forget it. Is that really what we want to produce, a bunch of little automatons that simply regurgitate only the most basic of knowledge and just as quickly to be forgotten?

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http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/ucla-faculty-experts-advisory-168510.aspx

An easy way to evaluate the effectiveness of a teacher assessment methodology is to observe the degree to which the teachers unions complain about it. They're directly proportional.

I am no fan of teacher unions (or most other kinds of unions, having belonged to one once). I think they have mostly lost a sense of the real picture.

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Mola Ram Suda Ram:

I've always advocated that people do the best they can do, and improve the best they can do.

I think the word you want is quantify.

I can quantify the bottom line on a profit and loss sheet. I can pay you for how much profits you make in a day, a month, or year(s).

I can quantify the number of widgets someone produces. I can pay you for how many widgets you produce in a day, a month, or year(s).

How do I pay you for how well you do in teaching your children until long after the fact? Do I pay you by the job they hold, or how much money they make? What if they decide that they want to join another religion, or have no religion at all? What if despite your best efforts they go on to committ illegal or immoral acts. Do we demand the money back?

Say I decide to pay you this year based on how well you taught your children the previous year. People aren't widget. You can't pour in information into the top of their heads, and expect them to know it. It most always talk many years for people especially children to actually process inform into their long term memory. They neither have the brain wiring nor patience to do it. Until then it is just memorize enough for the test and forget it. Is that really what we want to produce, a bunch of little automatons that simply regurgitate only the most basic of knowledge and just as quickly to be forgotten?

IT sounds as if you want to give teachers a free pass. Do you concede that there are bad teachers?

If you do what separates a bad teacher from a good teacher? We can start there.

I will state that I personally feel the biggest issue here when it comes to teaching might not be teachers in the public arena but what happens in the home.

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In another thread, the issue of public education for was discussed. Several different "models" were introduced, each with a varying component of governmental involvement and religious presence.

If you have an opinion on the subject, what do you think is the best (or better) form of providing education, compared to the current system. Would you totally scrap the current system, or just improve it? Would you take steps to provide education for every child in the country, or would you leave it up to the parents to decide how much education (and what type) a child should get and make schooling entirely optional? What do you see as the biggest problems in the public education system in our day?

In other words, suppose you got a call from The President, confiding in you that education in the USA is an absolute mess and asking your advice on razing the system and starting from scratch, or improving the existing system.

This is applicable to an LDS discussion board because of the different ways LDS interpret the statements of Church leaders on the subject, the ways the Church has been involved in education in the past and present, and the ways in which LDS deal with the challenge of education today.

In another thread, the issue of public education for was discussed. Several different "models" were introduced, each with a varying component of governmental involvement and religious presence.

If you have an opinion on the subject, what do you think is the best (or better) form of providing education, compared to the current system. Would you totally scrap the current system, or just improve it? Would you take steps to provide education for every child in the country, or would you leave it up to the parents to decide how much education (and what type) a child should get and make schooling entirely optional? What do you see as the biggest problems in the public education system in our day?

In other words, suppose you got a call from The President, confiding in you that education in the USA is an absolute mess and asking your advice on razing the system and starting from scratch, or improving the existing system.

This is applicable to an LDS discussion board because of the different ways LDS interpret the statements of Church leaders on the subject, the ways the Church has been involved in education in the past and present, and the ways in which LDS deal with the challenge of education today.

seems simple enough.

1. Test the teachers. Treat them like we do other professionals from whom we expect higher standards. Continuing education is mandatory for architects, doctors, lawyers, etc..

2. Decrease summer vacation. Increase the school year. This is only a benefit, no other conclusion can reasonably be discerned.

3. Regulate Higher institutions out of being a commercial enterprise. Tuition should be justified and not just a "membership fee".

4. Organize education around the idea that government is regulating education instead of managing education.

5. Condone religious activities, clubs, groups, and manifestations - as determined by the local authority having jurisdiction.

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