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Taken At Face Value...Is The Book Of Mormon True


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It is the fact that Jesus is the Christ that is the "foundation of the LDS church," actually. And yes, God the Father and Jesus Christ spoke to Joseph "in the flesh." Your point being?

We've gone three rounds now and you don't know my point? Sorry, I am ignoring you the rest of this thread.

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jmordecai:

The BoM claims to be written in a type of "reformed Egytian". It does not claim to be Demotic.

No examples of Demotic have been found in the New World. However that is irrelevent. All there needs to be is an example of reformed Egyptian.

Edited by thesometimesaint
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You forgot no. 3

3. Does it show that Egyptian writings can indeed be "reformed" ie hybridized with other writing languages?

The answer for 3 is yes.

One and two are as follows

1- I probably isn't.

2- Not at this point no.

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We've gone three rounds now and you don't know my point? Sorry, I am ignoring you the rest of this thread.

I do understand what your point is. Saying, "Your point being?" was a way to say that it does not matter that they appeared to Joseph "in the flesh." You seem to be saying that since the Father and the Son appeared to Joseph as physical beings, then it was not any kind of "revelation," but it most certainly was. If there was not a spiritual witness there confirming to Joseph that what he was seeing was very physical and very real, Joseph could have easily thought that he was losing his mind. Nothing, however, where Christ is involved is without a spiritual witness. It was most certainly there.

I would like you to answer the other points I brought up, though; the ones before the last post I wrote, too. Ignoring someone is a rather childish thing to do. There is no place for immaturity in a civil, respectful discussion.

1. How is demotic Egyptian linked to the Book of Mormon?

2. Has it been found in the Americas and dated to the Book of Mormon era?

You asked for an example of reformed Egyptian and it was given to you, and we have now, therefore, established that "reformed Egyptian" does indeed exist. Whether or not it existed an ancient America is another story, but it's a start. Don't expect to find an example of reformed Egyptian in ancient Mesoamerica, though, for a few reasons.

1. All of the texts (religious, historical, cultural, etc.) were destroyed by the Spanish when they invaded, and

2. the Book of Mormon seems to make it clear that the term "reformed Egyptian" is a Nephite term for a script that they modified (Mormon 9:32), and probably reserved for this religious text that Joseph Smith translated. There is, therefore, no reason to believe that we would ever find it, since the Nephites, along with probably all or many of their cities and records, were destroyed by the Lamanites, and since the golden plates, including the sealed portion, were taken to heaven after Joseph's translation was complete.

It must also be established that "reformed Egyptian" is not the name of a language. It is merely a reformed version of the Egyptian language, an Egyptian-based script, probably Egyptian written in Hebraic characters, or vice-versa. But this would not be a good of finding evidence for the Book of Mormon. Should "reformed Egyptian," whatever it is, be discovered, it would not likely help scholars with learning about the Book of Mormon, since it would probably be untranslatable. God almost certainly would make sure of that.

See this article, and the sources it cites, for further information:

http://en.fairmormon...formed_Egyptian

So ancient Jews never lived the Americas?

Nobody ever said that.

"the language of the Egyptians" (1 Ne. 1:2).

In context, this verse states:

"Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians."

This is saying that Nephi is writing his record in "the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians." It never says that he spoke Egyptian. It is very possible, however, that he did. The "learning of the Jews" part, though, seems to me to give strength to the hypothesis that reformed Egyptian is an Egyptian script written in Hebrew language characters. Such a script would be very difficult to translate.

I've read it. Do you offer any data points other than insults?

But have you studied it? Have you researched what scholars are saying? Since you seem unfamiliar with what scholars know about Book of Mormon geography, reformed Egyptian, and Nephite/Lamanite culture and religion, I would guess no. If I'm wrong, please demonstrate that you are familiar with what not only scholars say, but more importantly what the Book of Mormon says about these subjects.

Edited by altersteve
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Ummm...actually people get false witnesses all the time.

True, but normally we can depend on the eyewitness account of eight reliable witnesses who saw a physical event at the same time.

So who, if not the individual claiming to receive this witness is the final arbiter of said spiritual witness? Yet there are countless cases of individuals who have claimed to have received a witness of some truth only to be told that it was a false witness because it did not conform to someone else’s standard of a spiritual witness.

And that is precisely why I am not in the business of proving that the BOM is authentic. That is something between the individual and the Lord. The individual is responsible to judge whether he received a reliable witness from the Spirit.

The individual himself is the judge and arbiter. I can only speak for myself and my own personal experience.

In fact a spiritual witness is probably one of the least reliable experience to base a major decision upon...because it is based on feelings and emotions and feeling and emotions CAN and ARE manipulated.

That is true, and that is why we have Alma chapter 32, in addition to the promise in Moroni. I can witness from a lifetime of experiences which are consistent with my initial experience.

A testimony, a witness, is a journey, not just an event. And, again, we have to judge for ourselves if that lifetime witness is true.

Mormonism is NOT unique in the spiritual witness business...while from the Mormon perspective all "other" witnesses are false...just as from some other religions perspective Mormonism witnesses are false. Even within Mormonism, members receive false witness of the spirit all the time only later to reinterpret their once firm witness once they realize that their so-called witness didn't result in the desired blessing.

Things have happened to me that you would not call a "blessing", but the things that I experienced over the years have turned out to be a blessing.

It is true that someone may pay tithing, and instantly expect to get a new job, etc. The blessings do not come in that manner, and that is what we learn through a lifetime of experiences -- how the Lord works.

Finally, my witness does not preclude someone else from having a special experience with my Father. Peter Marshall was a great man, and had a very special experience with the Lord.

Edited by cdowis
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That you are completely unaware of work done on the Book of Mormon question since 1975 means that you have a lot of catching up to do. Otherwise, you will remain as uninformed as Tom Ferguson was.

This seems to me to be the big problem with critics. They are stuck with what's already been out there for many years where we have new information all the time that as I have read it has increasingly added to the "evidence" for the BOM to be a book of ancient origin.

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This seems to me to be the big problem with critics. They are stuck with what's already been out there for many years where we have new information all the time that as I have read it has increasingly added to the "evidence" for the BOM to be a book of ancient origin.

Also they resist taking the evidences as a whole and want to dismiss each seperatly. I understand this because as a whole the evidences are impresive.

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This seems to me to be the big problem with critics. They are stuck with what's already been out there for many years where we have new information all the time that as I have read it has increasingly added to the "evidence" for the BOM to be a book of ancient origin.

Well they might simply be nostalgic for the 70's. Bell bottoms, bicentennial, disco, Brady Bunch, Pet Rocks and mood rings. Its easier to hurl you mood rings before the advances on archeology. Oh, and remember this from the 70's. :)

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The NWAF was in no sense a Book of Mormon investigative enterprise, and had not the remotest connection to FARMS (the fact that you would even make that assertion raises serious questions about your sources of information and about your ability to process the data).

You assert that the NWAF was in no sense a Book of Mormon investigative enterprise...Really? Instead of dating Ferguson's daughter you should have talked with Ferguson. One of NWAF's founding archaeology advisory board members, Alfred V. Kidder, described the purpose of NWAF "...is to carry on explorations and excavations to add to knowledge of Mesoamerican archaeology and to test the several theories as to the origin of the high civilizations of the Americas:(1)That they were autochthonous [indigenous]; (2) that, as set forth in the Book of Mormon, they were derived from ancient Israel..." seems you were misinformed.

I respectfully stand corrected if I am mistaken regarding NWAF'S connection with FARMS...BUT...the reality again does NOT support your assurtion. It appears that F.A.R.M.S. and NWAF had quite a cozy relationship, with F.A.R.M.S. often funding the activities of NWAF. see CFR second paragraph for one example. http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=8&num=1&id=181

So your assurtion of not having the remotest connection to FARMS seems misplaced and not based in the "remotest" reality.

That you are completely unaware of work done on the Book of Mormon question since 1975 means that you have a lot of catching up to do. Otherwise, you will remain as uninformed as Tom Ferguson was.

Another generalized assertion...you have no idea WHAT I am aware of...and with the exception of some small grass-like grain (Hordeum pusillum) which church apologists like to claim as a "hit" since it is often referred to as little barley, but calling it little barley does not make it barley...in fact it remains a grass...for the most part, Fergusons list remains intact...yes even since 1975...so who needs catching up?

Edited by Craig Paxton
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Robert F. Smith, on 09 August 2011 - 01:55 AM, said:

That you are completely unaware of work done on the Book of Mormon question since 1975 means that you have a lot of catching up to do. Otherwise, you will remain as uninformed as Tom Ferguson was.

Another generalized assertion...you have no idea WHAT I am aware of...and with the exception of some small grass-like grain (Hordeum pusillum) which church apologists like to claim as a "hit" since it is often referred to as little barley, but calling it little barley does not make it barley...in fact it remains a grass...for the most part, Fergusons list remains intact...yes even since 1975...

Craig Paxton, on 02 August 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

BTW..I will certainly read these links. thank you

I hope you do. You will find that many things have indeed been found.

Lets say we find all of the items listed. Would you believe in the BoM? I doubt you would.

You appear to have a problem with follow through, why is that?

The New World Archeological Foundation that Ferguson helped kick-start has no connection whatsoever with the Genesis of FARMS, which started as a discussion in a carpool, thanks to John W. Welch.

Around 2004, Brant Gardner commented that the knowledge necessary to test the Book of Mormon in a New World context had only been discovered in the past 30 years. Which, if you, do the math, shows that Ferguson gave up too soon. And besides that, his thinking was sloppy.

For example:

Just because Isaiah wrote about wheels does not mean that the Book of Mormon requires them. The text never mentions them. And even the limited mentions of New World chariots as ceremonial royal transport, and never in battle, does not require them. Welch pointed out that the Hebrew that translates as "chariot" means "riding thing."

Relying on Ferguson and his lists at this late date is silly. Compare Ferguson's method with that of John Clark, or Diane Wirth, or Brant Gardner, or John Sorenson, or, our latest LDS Ph.D. with a Mesoamerican interest, Mark Wright (aka Hashbaz), and you might get the idea.

Look up Larry Poulson's identification of the Grijalva as the Sidon, or Brant Gardner's arguments about Teotihuican as location where cement use appears at the right time and place, and how such things converge with many others.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/

Gardner here:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2006-Brant-Gardner.pdf

Wright, for instance:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2008-Mark-Wright.pdf

And try this to get a bit more up to speed on stuff that Ferguson is way way behind on. Sorenson published a much much briefer version of the following paper back in 1975. A lot has been learned.

http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp195_mesoamerica.pdf

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

I did not notice whether or not you countered the links in anyway. I could be wrong but it would be interesting to see.

It appears the "assertion" wasn't generalized, you just refuse to read anything (including links) that occur after 1975. ;)

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class…Class…CLASSSSSSSSSSS…thank you; Now that I have your attention, let’s get back to the question at hand.

Literal or nuanced? If nothing else Ferguson, made a literal belief more difficult by pointing out the problems with a literal approach. While I don’t personally buy into the “with enough time” crowd, from my perspective the only intellectually honest position a believer can take is a nuanced approach rather than a literal approach to the reality of the Book of Mormon. At least with a nuanced approach one can replace a horse with a tapir, a chariot with a travois, barley with grass seed (hordeum pussilum), a 1500 year old horse with a 12,000 year old horse, an east sea with a north sea, a west sea with a south sea, a New York Cumorah with a Meso-American Cumorah etc, etc, etc. Isn’t this what a nuanced approach requires in order to maintain belief? For clearly the straight forward, take it at its word, approach doesn’t work. Am I missing something?

anti-mormon ..... Anti-mormon... ANTIMORMON, Now that I have your attention Paxton, you haven't repsonded to the links provided up to that point. You haven't verified or denied their accuracy, you haven't provided a CFR as to their accusations. But you have attempted to shift after ignoring the responding posts, and you did not answer the links that you yourself promised to read. Did you read them? Or is your approach somewhat "nuanced" in how you respond? ;)

In the six or 7 pages we have you have responded six times so far. And not one of your posts responded to the counter points raised. Is this your idea of a debate? Are you honestly engaging people who have challenged your absolutely brilliant and insightful cut and paste job in the original post?

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anti-mormon ..... Anti-mormon... ANTIMORMON, Now that I have your attention Paxton, you haven't repsonded to the links provided up to that point. You haven't verified or denied their accuracy, you haven't provided a CFR as to their accusations. But you have attempted to shift after ignoring the responding posts, and you did not answer the links that you yourself promised to read. Did you read them? Or is your approach somewhat "nuanced" in how you respond? ;)

In the six or 7 pages we have you have responded six times so far. And not one of your posts responded to the counter points raised. Is this your idea of a debate? Are you honestly engaging people who have challenged your absolutely brilliant and insightful cut and paste job in the original post?

LOL...Hey Jeff I need a Social Secretary also...You available? My highly paid executive secretary doesn't even keep track of me as well as you do....and you do it for free. So you've really impreseds me...send me your secretarial resume'.

So with that said Yeah I'm a busy guy...not an excuse just the reason for not having read all 250+ pages of the links provided.

Bottom Line, I assert that Ferguson's tests still stand while I'm guessing that you assert that the concerns brought up by Ferguson have been resolved. While much has been learned and discovered since 1975, there is nothing that has been discovered to counter Ferguson's concerns about the absence of Book of Mormon evidence...evidence the book itself suggests should be present. Feel welcome to go through each of Ferguson's concerns and give me the CFR that refutes it. You seem to have lots of time on your hands.

BTW...it seems we both love the ability to cut and paste...but thanks for acknowledging mine as brilliant and insightful.

PS: Q: Can anyone find an OP on MD&D that Jeff hasn't responded to? I'd like to see it...

OH and please remember...I'm NOT an anti-Mormon, that is so 1990.

Edited by Craig Paxton
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You will have a hard time finding something I haven't responded to. I almost always respond. Especially if I am the original poster. It seems obligatory in my view. But, hey that's just me.

While your assertions are wonderful opinions in the universe that is you. Others have provided CFR's that have yet to be countered by the wonderful facts in the universe that is you.

I also appreciate the fact you are busy, right now I am not, so I can take the time. However is seems you haven't responded to earlier posts and made additional assertions without responding. What kind of fan of yours would I be if I didn't call you out on the oversight. In the Nietchian universe I am your best friend. ;)

Not to be nuanced, but it is straightforward and the general assertion needs to be backed up by something specific, unless of course you prefer the nuanced assertion as preferable to the overall facts. ;)

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You will have a hard time finding something I haven't responded to. I almost always respond. Especially if I am the original poster. It seems obligatory in my view. But, hey that's just me.

While your assertions are wonderful opinions in the universe that is you. Others have provided CFR's that have yet to be countered by the wonderful facts in the universe that is you.

I also appreciate the fact you are busy, right now I am not, so I can take the time. However is seems you haven't responded to earlier posts and made additional assertions without responding. What kind of fan of yours would I be if I didn't call you out on the oversight. In the Nietchian universe I am your best friend. ;)

Not to be nuanced, but it is straightforward and the general assertion needs to be backed up by something specific, unless of course you prefer the nuanced assertion as preferable to the overall facts. ;)

LOL...I think we would be great friends in real life...let's do lunch.

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Former head of the organizatin that evenutally became F.A.R.M.S., Thomas Stuart Ferguson, was one of the most noted defenders of Book of Mormon archaeology. Mr. Ferguson planned the New World Archaeological Foundation which he hoped would prove The Book of Mormon through archaeological research. The Mormon Church granted hundreds of thousands of dollars to this organization, but in the end, Thomas Stuart Ferguson admitted that although the Foundation made some important contributions to New World archaeology, all his work with regard to the Book of Mormon was in vain. He admitted, in fact, that he had wasted twenty-five years of his life trying to prove the Book of Mormon.

We are to make comments on the FORUM tittled "TAKEN at FACE VALUE... Is the Book of Mormon True,

or must it be nuanced to make it so?

HERE WE ARE TO MAKE SOME CRITICISM/EVALUATION to such type of EVALUATION, considering what was and is being presented in the FORUM:

1921 BOOK OF MORMON GEOGRAFPHY HEARINGS

A thread started by Craig Paxton and started with a question that is very much related to the Book of Mormon GEOGRAPHY and that was raised by FARMS creator:

Former head of the organizatin that evenutally became F.A.R.M.S., Thomas Stuart Ferguson, was one of the most noted defenders of Book of Mormon archaeology. Mr. Ferguson planned the New World Archaeological Foundation which he hoped would prove The Book of Mormon through archaeological research. The Mormon Church granted hundreds of thousands of dollars to this organization, but in the end, Thomas Stuart Ferguson admitted that although the Foundation made some important contributions to New World archaeology, all his work with regard to the Book of Mormon was in vain. He admitted, in fact, that he had wasted twenty-five years of his life trying to prove the Book of Mormon.

In 1975 Ferguson prepared a 29-page paper in response to papers written by Mormon apologists John Sorenson and Garth Norman. It was entitled, "Written Symposium on Book-of-Mormon Geography: Response of Thomas S. Ferguson to the Norman & Sorenson Papers." In this response, Mr. Ferguson wrote: 'With all of these great efforts, it cannot be established factually that anyone, from Joseph Smith to the present day, has put his finger on a single point of terrain that was a Book-of-Mormon geographical place. And the hemisphere has been pretty well checked out by competent people. Thousands of sites have been excavated."

Ferguson pointed out in his paper that the text of the Book of Mormon makes it very clear that certain items should be found in archaeological excavations and that these items are not present in the sites proposed. He noted, for instance, that "Thousands of archaeological holes in the area proposed have given us not a fragment of evidence of the presence of the plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon..." He concluded by saying: "I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography. I, for one, would be happy if Dee were wrong."

To appreciate Ferguson's work, you have to see it. Here is his paper sumarizing the situation of Book of Mormon archeology. Although written in 1975, no new evidence has been found anywhere in the Americas to change the status of Book of Mormon archeology outlined below:

Book of Mormon Historical Evidence Test

Plant-Life Test

The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following plants in regions proposed as Nephite-Lamanite country:

BARLEY ---> MAYBE WE HAVE SOME "CULTURAL PROBLEMS" WITH THE TRANSLATION FROM SABELLIAN (well before Latin) = NEPHITIC to ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

Mosiah 7:22 One half of our corn, and our barley

................................Acts in the Chapter 10: An angel ministers to CORNelius. 10:1 There was a certain man in Cesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band.

Look at the name of this SABELLIAN person, a son from ITA - LIAH, ITA = "descendent of" LIAH= JACOB's wife = ISRAEL's wife. Thus such centurion was an ISRAELITE or ISRAELITA in LATIN languages or in SABELLIAN language (which is prior to LATIN) or in NEPHITIC language which is the same as SABELLIAN language. ITA LIAH's centurionb is ITA ISRAEL's = ISRAELITA = ISRAELite.

Look at the personal name of such centurion. It is not his FIRST NAME, but it is his FAMILY NAME (and I am known by my surname SAVELLI, as NEPHI is the FAMILY name thus you have NEPHI 1st, NEPHI 2nd, NEPHI 3rd and the "I" is to mean you are of "male gender" or would be NEPHA if of "female gender"...)

Look again. CORNellius is CORN + eli + us, and it is NEPHITIC surname = SABELLIC surname. Thus you read it as Hebrew: from right to left, even if you are using a blend of Greek and Phoenician characters, but with Hebrew grammar. You read: ELI + CORN. Thus ELI = MY GOD (as Jesus made such exclamation at the death in crossing)

......... CORN is not necessarily WHEAT but can be the cereal grain CORN = MAIZE grains and flour as basic main INDIAN FOOD. That was to be discovered in AMERICA in Colombus' days. "CORN" was main "FOOD" in, Christ's days, in SABELLIAN = NEPHITIC's language mainly from grains like wheat. Corn could/can be all FOOD as from starchy looking appearance bread: probably from generic grains and mixtures. In America we could include cassava (manioc) and similar starchy tubercles for generating "bread". It is possible the translation for WHEAT in fact was the translation for the cereal grain CORN = MAIZE... just a cultural problem, as with SHAZER x correct CHASER.

FIGS

GRAPES

WHEAT x CORN (SEE ABOVE DISCUSSION)

Mosiah 9:9 With seed of corn, and of wheat (SEE THE DISTINCTION "of CORN" and "of WHEAT"). What "CORN"?

3 Ne. 18:18 To have you: that he may sift you as wheat

Evidence to support the existence of these forms of plant life in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson stands at this time as follows:

NOTICE: BOOK OF MORMON GEOGRAPHY is not linked to MEXICO to GUATEMALA, but to N.Y. to DETROIT to CHICAGO... AFTER THE END OF NEPHITIC EMPIRE, the LAMANITES LIKE HUNS and MONGOLS INVADED MEXICO TO GUATEMALA KINGDOMS, bringuinging their riots and destruction.

Barley: None

Figs: None

Grapes: None

Wheat: None

This negative score on the plant-life should not be treated too lightly. An abundance of evidence supporting the existence of these plants has been found in other parts of the world of antiquity. The existence of numerous non-Book-of-Mormon plants (maize, lima beans, tomatoes, squash, etc.) has been supported by abundant archaeological findings. I participated in excavating a trench at the edge of the Grijalva River with Edwin Shook, in which we found a ceramic vessel in a stratum dating to about 200 B.C. The vessel contained lima beans that had been burned anciently and discarded—pot and beans—as too badly burned to be edible. And yet they were still in their pristine and perfect form. The beans were carbon-14 dated—helping to place the whole stratum on the true time scale. Art portrayals in ceramics, murals, and sculptured works—of ancient plant life—are fairly commonplace. Thousands of archaeological holes in the area proposed have given us not a fragment of evidence of the presence of the plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon—the holes included the great one dug by Edwin Shook at Tehuacán, Pueblo, Mexico. He excavated a cave—going down and back to 5,000 B.C.—finding most of the major plants of the area. But no wheat, barley, figs, or grapes.

WRONG PLACE! Based on WRONG CLUES. JOSEPH SMITH PROVIDED VERY CORRECT CLUES. BUT THEY "REASONED" HE WAS THE FALSE and ignorant PROPHET.

Animal-Life Test

The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following animals in the regions proposed as Jaredite-Nephite-Lamanite country:

***

1 Ne. 18:25 The ox and the *** and the horse

ASSES

BULL

CALF

CALVES

CATTLE

COW

COWS

BUTTER

MILK

FATLING

FATLINGS

FIRSTLINGS

FLOCKS

His Flocks—

Our Flocks—

Their Flocks—

Flocks—

GOAT

GOATS

HERDS

HORSE

HORSES

OX

OXEN (MAYBE THE NAME GIVEN TO SOME WILD NATIVE ANIMAL? Thus a problem with translation?)

SHEEP

My Sheep—

Sheep—

SHEARER

Mosiah 15:6 As a sheep before the shearer is dumb

SOW (Swine)

3 Ne. 7:8 Or like the sow to her wallowing in the mire

SWINE - In SOUTH AMERICA THERE ARE WILD SWINES: are them "native"?. As our "dogs" GUARA=redish?

3 Ne. 14:6 Neither cast ye your pearls before swine

Ether 9:18 Cows, and of sheep, and of swine, and of

ELEPHANTS

Ether 9:19 And there were elephants and cureloms

Ether 9:19 More especially the elephants, and cureloms

Evidence supporting the existence of these forms of animal life in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson stands at this time as follows:

***: None

Bull: None

Calf: None

Cattle: None

Cow: None

Goat: None

Horse: None

Ox: None

Sheep: None

Sow: None

Elephants: None (contemporary with Book of Mormon)

Evidence of the foregoing animals has not appeared in any form (OHIO STATE FINDINGS?)—ceramic representations, bone or skeletal remains, mural art, sculptured art, or any other form. However, in the regions proposed by Norman and Sorenson, evidence has been found in several forms of the presence in Book-of-Mormon times of other animals—deer, jaguars, dogs, turkeys, etc. The zero score presents a problem that will not go away with the ignoring of it. Non-LDS scholars of first magnitude—some who want to be our friends—think we have real trouble here. That evidence of the ancient existence of these animals is not elusive is found in the fact that proof of their existence in the ancient Old World is abundant. The absence of such evidence in the area proposed for our consideration in this symposium is distressing and significant, in my view.

Metallurgy Test

BELLOWS

BRASS

Plates of Brass—

Brass—

BREAST-PLATES --> found in OHIO, in many cases. Even in Gold and in Brass.

CHAINS

COPPER

GOLD

IRON

Rod of Iron—

Iron—

METALS ---> Region along the Hudson River (even in NY) was plenty of all type of metals, including of copper, iron, gold, etc. for minning and metal production.

MOULTEN

ORE

ORES

PLOW

PLOW-SHARES

STEEL

SILVER ONTARIO = ONTARIUM means ONT A R IUM = the place for minning SILVER ore (in the neck of ISTHMUS of NIAGARA)

SWORDS

Our Swords—

Their Swords—

By the Sword—

With the Sword—

His Sword—

By the Sword—

Swords—

HILT

HILTS

TOOL

TOOLS

ENGRAVE

ENGRAVED

ENGRAVEN

Engraven—

ENGRAVING

ENGRAVINGS

The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of some or all of the following scripts in the regions proposed as Jaredite-Nephite country: Cuneiform (only script used in Tower of Babel times and land—oldest and first script in the world—only one in use in Tigris-Euphrates Valley from its invention about 3500 B.C. down to 600 B.C.) for the Jaredites; Hebrew = FALSE, NEPHITES used NEPHITIC=SABELLI's CHARACTERS and LANGUAGE and (NOT) Egyptian for the Nephites (DIDN'T USE HEBREW OR EGYPT LANGUAGE or SCRIPTING).

EGYPTIAN—Reformed is first PHOENICIAN. From it came the GREEK. NEPHITIC is a "blend" of GREEK] + PHOENICIAN (reformed Egyptians) + Hebrew languages.

The name given to the style of characters in use in the days of Mormon in which the records were engraven on the sacred plates. These characters were greatly modified from those used by Nephi and the other earlier recorders (Anthon's CARACTORS show the VARIETY of NEPHITIC characters, of several styles and their modifications).

Stan Larson, Quest for the Gold Plates, p.258

Morm. 9:32 Which are called among us the reformed Egyptian

EGYPTIANS—The people of Egypt.

1 Ne. 1:2 Learning of the Jews, and the language of the Egyptians: because Nephites lived in Egypt before arriving to live in Israel=Judah's kingdom.

1 Ne. 4:3 And to destroy Laban, even as the Egyptians

HEBREW—The language of the people of Israel

Morm. 9:33 We should have written in Hebrew --> Hebrew text was FOUND IN OHIO PLACES (nearby CUMORAH and EAST SEA=ONTARIO LAKE)

WRITING

1 Ne. 6:1 Upon these plates which I am writing

WRITINGS

WRITE

Cannot Write—

Not Write—

Be Written—

Been Written—

I Have Written—

Have Written—

Is Written—

Not Written—

Which Were Written—

Were Written—

Written—

WROTE

....

Hebrew: For very exciting, but meager, script data just now (March 6, 1975) received, see the letter . . . from Professor George F. Carter, formerly of Johns Hopkins University and now of Texas A&M University. A seal found at Tlatilco (suburb of Mexico City) bears the Hebrew name, Hiram, apparently in Egyptian script! Carter's reference to other Old World scripts— Iberic, Carthaginian = PHOENICIAN, and Libyan—found on the Atlantic coast of North America—are exciting. However, they don't help the Book of Mormon script test, which deals exclusively with Cuneiform, Hebrew, and Egyptian, to be found in the Norman-Sorenson designated territory. Proof of a voyage from Libya doesn't prove the Lehi voyage from Arabia—but it could relate to or even be the Mulek voyage! A cylinder seal found at Tlatilco, Mexico, bearing a Hebrew name, Hiram! Wow!

.... In my opinion, they lend more support to Sorenson and Norman than all of the configuration-dimension-direction-topography ...

GLASS

Ether 3:1 White and clear, even as transparent glass. FOUND IN OHIO BURROW's CAVE as the huge transparent glass HAND.

The ceramic toys constitute the only evidence of the wheel in ancient times for the areas designated by the proponents. The great murals of Bonampak and of Teotihuacan contain no picture of carts or chariots. The innumerable stone sculptured monuments, portraying much of the ancient way of life—including sedan chairs—give us no representation of carts or chariots. None have been found portrayed in ceramics. A visit to the Cairo Museum, to the University of Pennsylvania Museum, to the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, [and] to the Field Museum in Chicago reveals to visitors undisputed and powerful evidence supporting the existence of wheels (utilitarian), carts, chariot, and works in glass (great numbers of glass vases and dishes survive, for example from ancient Egypt) from areas referenced in the Bible. Complete chariots of wood and iron have turned up in tombs at various points in the ancient Middle East.

To my knowledge no pre-Columbian glass has been found in the regions pointed to by Norman and Sorenson. The wheeled toys and the three glyphs from Chiapa de Corzo don't give our friends much of a total score for their geographical selections.

Conclusion

The evidence supporting the geographical views of Norman and Sorenson, under the exacting tests laid down by the text of the Book of Mormon, is indeed very meager. We have the cylinder seal from Chiapa de Corzo, the cylinder seal from Tlatilco and the toys with wheels. That's about all. This paucity of specific support presents, at least to me, a dilemma. One way out of the dilemma is to say that everything was scrambled and lost because of the upheavals described in 3 Nephi for the time of the crucifixion. In my personal opinion, this is not a satisfactory escape hatch. Virtually all of the data in the Book of Mormon must be credited to Mormon and his abridgment of the "larger plates." He and Moroni, writing in the fourth century (over 300 years after the crucifixion), were responsible for the last 400 pages of the text. And it is in those 400 pages that most of the geographical data appear. Mormon doesn't say that his references to geography are useless and hopeless.

Further, innumerable excavations made in the area we are dealing with, and in the time span (3000 B.C.—400 A.D.) with which we are involved, reveal great undisturbed architectural structures, extensive relatively undisturbed ancient strata, etc., etc.—right through the time of the crucifixion.

I don't have the answer to the dilemma. I just call it up.

I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book-of-Mormon geography. I, for one, would be happy if Dee were wrong.

Respectfully submitted,

[signed] Thomas Stuart Ferguson

Thomas Stuart Ferguson

2 March 1975

With best personal regards, sincerely yours,

SAVELLI

Link to comment

LOL...Hey Jeff I need a Social Secretary also...You available? My highly paid executive secretary doesn't even keep track of me as well as you do....and you do it for free. So you've really impreseds me...send me your secretarial resume'.

So with that said Yeah I'm a busy guy...not an excuse just the reason for not having read all 250+ pages of the links provided.

Bottom Line, I assert that Ferguson's tests still stand while I'm guessing that you assert that the concerns brought up by Ferguson have been resolved. While much has been learned and discovered since 1975, there is nothing that has been discovered to counter Ferguson's concerns about the absence of Book of Mormon evidence...evidence the book itself suggests should be present. Feel welcome to go through each of Ferguson's concerns and give me the CFR that refutes it. You seem to have lots of time on your hands.

BTW...it seems we both love the ability to cut and paste...but thanks for acknowledging mine as brilliant and insightful.

PS: Q: Can anyone find an OP on MD&D that Jeff hasn't responded to? I'd like to see it...

OH and please remember...I'm NOT an anti-Mormon, that is so 1990.

Link to comment

If you take the WRONG BUS toward the WRONG DIRECTION, you are not to REACH the desired DESTINATION: beneficial use of GEOGRAPHY of Book of MORMON...

That was the case of the ARCHEOLOGY OF BOOK OF MORMON because it took the WRONG BUS: the wrong TOPOGRAPHY or GEOGRAPHY of the Book of MORMON.

[\quote]

They say they trust in their FIRST and MAIN prophet, JOSEPH SMITH, and Brigham Yound, Woodroof, etc. Parley Pratt. But in the practice, they believe they were ignorant men in subjects of Science, like topography and GEOGRAPHY. Thus they believed that in subjects that are like ACADEMIC, as TOPOGRAPHY, ARCHEOLOGY, GEOGRAPHY, etc. they are the "WISES OF ZION", as if Aaron: expert in making "god" for people believe in them, as if scientific gold idol (intellectual one). Thus the advises and teachings from Joseph Smith and others first ones, related to such expertise fields of human knowledge, are not to be linked to "religion" even if sponsored, somehow, by the LDS people, as they sponsored Aaron's gold calf. It is like if Moses had died in the Mountain and religion was to be based on Aaron's scientific guidance on how to scientifically build a gold calf for people be able to "touch" on something "tangible" of their religion, as Egyptians. Instead on staying just believing on some accounts (tales? fables?) of some gold plates that nobody can touch. At least they now touch the remains of a nephitic civilization, quite like they could grasp on the feets of the gold calf.

It appears that Joseph Smith and other first leaders was very clear that NEPHITIC CIVILIZATION spread from somewhere having as extreme limits the New York town region (the ONANdongas Indians region, Cumorah Hill, EAST SEA = ONTARIO LAKE) to the ROCKY MOUNTAINS.

The most clear disclosure about that was in the event of the discovery of the skeleton of ZELF, the White Lamanite Warrior, next to the Illinois River. In such occasion Joseph Smith disclosed about who such ZELPH lamanite was as so important to be known from Cumorah Hill and of the ONANdongas Indians (they are from N.Y., and acording NY Jews, are descendents from Judah, from ONAN) and told such person was known (personally...) up to the Rocky Mountains (as New Mexico... we can guess...). There is vast literature on that, including in Church records. But Smart "Zion's scientist, Wises" convinced that the first leaders were "ignorants" in science subjects: removed them.

We can see such VAST NEPHITIC EMPIRE in the following map. Just click on the next URL and you will see the MAIN BROAD GEOGRAPHIC AREA of NEPHITIC LANDS.

http://img12.mediafire.com/b179bd4047cd3e4a85661bfbf2838065a988b0cfd60f97040fb00f9a66336f4b6g.jpg

You can see that the NEPHITIC LAND is composed of relatively COLD WEATHER LANDS, not WARM and HOT as the MEXICAN to CENTRAL AMERICA (GUATEMALA) lands that are the "MODELS" for the IMAGINARY LANDS ("tropical ones") used for the CHURCH, for the LDS as FARMS and etc. It is evident that ANIMALS and VEGETALS from cold weather places, the extreme majority of them as mentioned in Book of Mormon, are not to live in such "tropical hot places". What an imagination! Dare!

You can see that all lands for NEPHITIC PEOPLE LIVE are quite temperated to quite cold lands, as numbered from 1 (New York town region with their OnanDongas Indians), 2 (Cumorah hill region, Ontario Lake), 3 (Erie Lake, Niagara Falls, Kirtland-Oh), 4 (Independence, Missouri), 5 (Nauvoo, Illinois), 6 (Winter Quarters), 8 (Los Lunas in Rocky Mountains = Sierra Nevada in New Mexico), 10 (where ZELF was found next to Illinois River).

That is basically the GEOGRAPHY of BOOK of MORMON in its CORE: a quite COLD WEATHER-CLIMATE CONDITION, ideal for all cultures of all plantations, trees and animals as mentioned in Book of Mormon. For sure they are nothing ideal for the CLIMATE and WEATHER of MEXICO and Central America: appears to be a joke say that.

You can see the MOST VERY IMPORTANT AND START OF THE CORE OF THE NEPHITIC CIVILIZATION, AT ITS START IN U.S.A., around NEW YORK STATE and N.Y. town:

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/e23fdc8033ffcb901516eb7eeb84e8e4681db09f84b912de47d6b4ef692369f06g.jpg

JUST CLICK ON ABOVE URL and you will see from the place where the NEPHITES unboarded the SAIL-SHIP ("CARAVEL TYPE", small but very fast), next to Liberty Statue (to be made) in LAND OF LIBERTY. They moved toward HUDSON RIVER and arrived in CUMORAH HILL and in LAKE ONTARIUM = ONTARIO = "ONT" A R IUM, the LAKE (EAST SEA) of SILVER, as it was mined in the "neck" most narrow of Isthmus of Niagara, where we have the Niagara Falls (Sidon River Falls). You can see that the WEST SEA (ERIE LAKE) in fact is sited at the WEST (or western) of the ONTARIO LAKE = EAST SEA... Can you see?

For sure the CLIMATE (and WHEATER) of such above shown region, around SEA WEST (LAKE ERIE) and SEA EAST (LAKE ONTARIO) and CUMORAH HILL and to HUDSON RIVER to N.Y. TOWN, are region with COLD CLIMATE and VERY SEVERE COLD WEATHER. I had been in such region some times. Such is the IDEAL region for growing vegetation as described in BOOK OF MORMON, not doing something absurd as having the silly idea of growing them in MEXICO to GUATEMALA and most absurd is the archeological idea of trying to find some grains and seed of that very cold climate in so hot tropical climate places. Crazy ideas.... nonsense... Hear the prophets!

<H3 class=r>Zelph - The White Lamanite Warrior

www.utlm.org/onlineresources/zelph.htm - Zelph - The White Lamanite Warrior. by Sandra Tanner ... prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea (EASTern SEA) to the Rocky Mountains (NEW MEXICO???). ...

<H3 class=r>Zelph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelph - Zelph is a minor figure in Mormon history. In May and June 1834 Joseph ... were from Zelph, a "white Lamanite" general who was a righteous man. .... Woodruff also states that Zelph "that was known from the hill Cumorah on East sea to ... (EAST SEA --> ONTARIO SEA=LAKE is the "SEA" next to CUMORAH HILL that is "ON" the LAKE, "ON its MARGIN" in Good English)

</H3></H3>

To appreciate Ferguson's work, you have to see it. Here is his paper sumarizing the situation of Book of Mormon archeology. Although written in 1975, no new evidence has been found anywhere in the Americas to change the status of Book of Mormon archeology outlined below:

Book of Mormon Historical Evidence Test

Plant-Life Test

The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following plants (FOR COLD/TEMPERATED CLIMATE) in regions proposed ("TROPICAL, EQUATORIAL, VERY HOT") as Nephite-Lamanite country of people that don't trust on their first and main prophets... for them Nephitic empire was USA...:

FIGS

3 Ne. 14:16 Gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles

GRAPES

2 Ne. 15:2 He looked that it should bring forth grapes

2 Ne. 15:2 And it brought forth wild grapes

2 Ne. 15:4 I looked that it should bring forth grapes

2 Ne. 15:4 It brought forth wild grapes

3 Ne. 14:16 Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of

Barley: None

Figs: None

Grapes: None -------> YIOU CAN SEE NEXT (BELOW) HOW FALSE IS THIS CONCLUSION. IT IS FOR TROPICAL-EQUATORIAL CLIMATE (MEXICO, GUATEMALA)

Wheat: None

This negative score on the plant-life should not be treated too lightly. An abundance of evidence supporting the existence of these plants has been found in other parts of the world of antiquity. The existence of numerous non-Book-of-Mormon plants (maize, lima beans, tomatoes, squash, etc.) has been supported by abundant archaeological findings. I participated in excavating a trench at the edge of the Grijalva River with Edwin Shook, in which we found a ceramic vessel in a stratum dating to about 200 B.C. The vessel contained lima beans that had been burned anciently and discarded—pot and beans—as too badly burned to be edible. And yet they were still in their pristine and perfect form. The beans were carbon-14 dated—helping to place the whole stratum on the true time scale. Art portrayals in ceramics, murals, and sculptured works—of ancient plant life—are fairly commonplace. Thousands of archaeological holes in the area proposed have given us not a fragment of evidence of the presence of the plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon—the holes included the great one dug by Edwin Shook at Tehuacán, Pueblo, Mexico. He excavated a cave—going down and back to 5,000 B.C.—finding most of the major plants of the area. But no wheat, barley, figs, or grapes.

WRONG PLACE. WRONG SCIENTISTS. THEY SHOULD CONSIDER BOOK OF MORMON MORE SERIOUSLY. AND THEY SHOULD BE FARMERS.

I HAVE HAD MANY FARMS IN MY LIFE. SOME FOR COLD WEATHER CONDITIONS. SOME FOR VERY HOT EQUATORIAL CLIMATE CONDITIONS. IT IS VERY ABSRUD FOR MY MIND THE IDEA OF SOME INTELLIGENT CIVILIZATION TRYING TO PLANT VEGETATION FOR VERY COLD CLIMATE IN MY EQUATORIAL FARMS. I WOULD CALL THEM CRAZY. And the opposite is true, because the first frost would kill or ruin such vegetation. For sure it is possible to have some slow genetic manipulation/adaptations.

If these SCIENTISTS used less salt in their Academic diet, they would had selected the correct GEOGRAPHY for the NEPHITIC CIVILIZATION (also Jareditic...) and now they could have TOPOGRAPHIC good maps with the trials followed by Indians in their travels and for their battles. Maybe I would re-open my mapping company for doing that. I already made some maps, for such purpose, just for "demonstration" of such capability and I discovered some huge SUSPENDED BRIDGES over the NIAGARA RIVER, downstream NIAGARA FALLS, in a restricted Military Zone (thus well preserved one....). Many sites were published on that.... I was just following Indian trails, doing some mapping service with USGS topographic maps, of very good quality, and some satelite pictures of very high resolution at hand. And I found the "shoulders" of the Bridges!

It is AMAZING when SCIENTISTS have EYES and can't SEE the evident TRUTH. That their GEOGRAPHY of BOOK OF MORMON is very BIASED, very FAULTY: DEVIATED.

It is PLENTTY OF NATIVE and WILD GRAPES in COLD-TEMPERATED CLIMATE of USA and CANADA. Also of other similar FRUITS of BOOK OF MORMON.

Searched with GOOGLE for GRAPES with: wild NATIVE grapes USA CANADA

· Wild Grape

www.wildfoods.info/wildfoods/wildgrape.html -

From then on, I would occasionally pick a cluster of wild grapes when I was .... are native over a broad area of the eastern United States and Canada and ...

· How to Identify Native Grapevines | eHow.com

www.ehow.com › Plant Care -

Over 20 different species of wild grape are native to the United States and Canada, comprising nearly half of the 50 species of wild grape species ...

· Fast Growing Grape Vines | eHow.com

www.ehow.comPlant Care

Riverbank Grape (Vitis riparia) is a vigorously developing wild grape vine ...

Show more results from e ehow.com

· Grape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grape -

Native purple grapes belonging to the Vitis genus proliferated in the wild across North ... are native to the Eastern United States and Canada. Vitis riparia, a wild vine of North America, is sometimes used for winemaking and for jam. ...

· * Vitis labrusca - (Wine): Definition

en.mimi.hu › Wine -

Vitis Labrusca, which is native to Canada and the eastern United States. ... cross-pollinated version of the wild grape native to North America. ...

· QDMA Canada - Natural Species Profile -- Wild Grapes

www.qdma.ca/index.php?...wild-grapes...

QDMA Canada. slide-top. what-we-do_01 what-we-do_02 what-we-do_03 ... Wild grapes (Vitis spp.) are native to the U.S. and found in the wild in all corners ...

· Types of Grape Vines | Garden Guides

www.gardenguides.com/96039-types-grape-vines.html -

Because a bacteria present in American soils is lethal to non-native grapes, ... Wild Grapes. The United States and Canada together are home to over 20 ...

· Types of Grape

www.cookeryonline.com/mealexperience/Grapes/Index.htm -

Vitis Labrusca, which is native to Canada and the eastern United States. There are over 5000 varieties of wine grapes. Below are some of the main types, ...

· Where Did Grapes Originate?

answers.yourdictionary.com › AnswersFood/Cooking -

The Vitis labrusca is native to the eastern United States, and areas of Canada. The grapes grown on this cultivar are usually used to make table wine, ...

· Grapes - growing Grapes - how to grow Grapes - USA Gardener

usagardener.com/how_to.../how_to_grow_grapes.php -

Tips For Buying Bulk Soil. Frost Dates - USA. Frost Dates - Canada ... and unlike most fruit crops, many grapes are native to North America. The wild grapes found by early settlers were quickly rejected because they were high in acid, ...

With best personal regards, sincerely yours,

SAVELLI

Link to comment

With best personal regards, sincerely yours,

SAVELLI

Well that puts the idea of there being no native American grapes to rest.

Link to comment

If you take the WRONG BUS toward the WRONG DIRECTION, you are not to REACH the desired DESTINATION: beneficial use of GEOGRAPHY of Book of MORMON...

That was the case of the ARCHEOLOGY OF BOOK OF MORMON because it took the WRONG BUS: the wrong TOPOGRAPHY or GEOGRAPHY of the Book of MORMON.

[\quote]

They say they trust in their FIRST and MAIN prophet, JOSEPH SMITH, and Brigham Yound, Woodroof, etc. Parley Pratt. But in the practice, they believe they were ignorant men in subjects of Science, like topography and GEOGRAPHY. Thus they believed that in subjects that are like ACADEMIC, as TOPOGRAPHY, ARCHEOLOGY, GEOGRAPHY, etc. they are the "WISES OF ZION", as if Aaron: expert in making "god" for people believe in them, as if scientific gold idol (intellectual one). Thus the advises and teachings from Joseph Smith and others first ones, related to such expertise fields of human knowledge, are not to be linked to "religion" even if sponsored, somehow, by the LDS people, as they sponsored Aaron's gold calf. It is like if Moses had died in the Mountain and religion was to be based on Aaron's scientific guidance on how to scientifically build a gold calf for people be able to "touch" on something "tangible" of their religion, as Egyptians. Instead on staying just believing on some accounts (tales? fables?) of some gold plates that nobody can touch. At least they now touch the remains of a nephitic civilization, quite like they could grasp on the feets of the gold calf.

It appears that Joseph Smith and other first leaders was very clear that NEPHITIC CIVILIZATION spread from somewhere having as extreme limits the New York town region (the ONANdongas Indians region, Cumorah Hill, EAST SEA = ONTARIO LAKE) to the ROCKY MOUNTAINS.

The most clear disclosure about that was in the event of the discovery of the skeleton of ZELF, the White Lamanite Warrior, next to the Illinois River. In such occasion Joseph Smith disclosed about who such ZELPH lamanite was as so important to be known from Cumorah Hill and of the ONANdongas Indians (they are from N.Y., and acording NY Jews, are descendents from Judah, from ONAN) and told such person was known (personally...) up to the Rocky Mountains (as New Mexico... we can guess...). There is vast literature on that, including in Church records. But Smart "Zion's scientist, Wises" convinced that the first leaders were "ignorants" in science subjects: removed them.

We can see such VAST NEPHITIC EMPIRE in the following map. Just click on the next URL and you will see the MAIN BROAD GEOGRAPHIC AREA of NEPHITIC LANDS.

http://img12.mediafire.com/b179bd4047cd3e4a85661bfbf2838065a988b0cfd60f97040fb00f9a66336f4b6g.jpg

You can see that the NEPHITIC LAND is composed of relatively COLD WEATHER LANDS, not WARM and HOT as the MEXICAN to CENTRAL AMERICA (GUATEMALA) lands that are the "MODELS" for the IMAGINARY LANDS ("tropical ones") used for the CHURCH, for the LDS as FARMS and etc. It is evident that ANIMALS and VEGETALS from cold weather places, the extreme majority of them as mentioned in Book of Mormon, are not to live in such "tropical hot places". What an imagination! Dare!

You can see that all lands for NEPHITIC PEOPLE LIVE are quite temperated to quite cold lands, as numbered from 1 (New York town region with their OnanDongas Indians), 2 (Cumorah hill region, Ontario Lake), 3 (Erie Lake, Niagara Falls, Kirtland-Oh), 4 (Independence, Missouri), 5 (Nauvoo, Illinois), 6 (Winter Quarters), 8 (Los Lunas in Rocky Mountains = Sierra Nevada in New Mexico), 10 (where ZELF was found next to Illinois River).

That is basically the GEOGRAPHY of BOOK of MORMON in its CORE: a quite COLD WEATHER-CLIMATE CONDITION, ideal for all cultures of all plantations, trees and animals as mentioned in Book of Mormon. For sure they are nothing ideal for the CLIMATE and WEATHER of MEXICO and Central America: appears to be a joke say that.

You can see the MOST VERY IMPORTANT AND START OF THE CORE OF THE NEPHITIC CIVILIZATION, AT ITS START IN U.S.A., around NEW YORK STATE and N.Y. town:

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/e23fdc8033ffcb901516eb7eeb84e8e4681db09f84b912de47d6b4ef692369f06g.jpg

JUST CLICK ON ABOVE URL and you will see from the place where the NEPHITES unboarded the SAIL-SHIP ("CARAVEL TYPE", small but very fast), next to Liberty Statue (to be made) in LAND OF LIBERTY. They moved toward HUDSON RIVER and arrived in CUMORAH HILL and in LAKE ONTARIUM = ONTARIO = "ONT" A R IUM, the LAKE (EAST SEA) of SILVER, as it was mined in the "neck" most narrow of Isthmus of Niagara, where we have the Niagara Falls (Sidon River Falls). You can see that the WEST SEA (ERIE LAKE) in fact is sited at the WEST (or western) of the ONTARIO LAKE = EAST SEA... Can you see?

For sure the CLIMATE (and WHEATER) of such above shown region, around SEA WEST (LAKE ERIE) and SEA EAST (LAKE ONTARIO) and CUMORAH HILL and to HUDSON RIVER to N.Y. TOWN, are region with COLD CLIMATE and VERY SEVERE COLD WEATHER. I had been in such region some times. Such is the IDEAL region for growing vegetation as described in BOOK OF MORMON, not doing something absurd as having the silly idea of growing them in MEXICO to GUATEMALA and most absurd is the archeological idea of trying to find some grains and seed of that very cold climate in so hot tropical climate places. Crazy ideas.... nonsense... Hear the prophets!

<H3 class=r>Zelph - The White Lamanite Warrior

www.utlm.org/onlineresources/zelph.htm - Zelph - The White Lamanite Warrior. by Sandra Tanner ... prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea (EASTern SEA) to the Rocky Mountains (NEW MEXICO???). ...

<H3 class=r>Zelph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelph - Zelph is a minor figure in Mormon history. In May and June 1834 Joseph ... were from Zelph, a "white Lamanite" general who was a righteous man. .... Woodruff also states that Zelph "that was known from the hill Cumorah on East sea to ... (EAST SEA --> ONTARIO SEA=LAKE is the "SEA" next to CUMORAH HILL that is "ON" the LAKE, "ON its MARGIN" in Good English)

</H3></H3>

To appreciate Ferguson's work, you have to see it. Here is his paper sumarizing the situation of Book of Mormon archeology. Although written in 1975, no new evidence has been found anywhere in the Americas to change the status of Book of Mormon archeology outlined below:

Book of Mormon Historical Evidence Test

Plant-Life Test

The text of the Book of Mormon requires the finding of evidence of some or all of the following plants (FOR COLD/TEMPERATED CLIMATE) in regions proposed ("TROPICAL, EQUATORIAL, VERY HOT") as Nephite-Lamanite country of people that don't trust on their first and main prophets... for them Nephitic empire was USA...:

FIGS

3 Ne. 14:16 Gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles

GRAPES

2 Ne. 15:2 He looked that it should bring forth grapes

2 Ne. 15:2 And it brought forth wild grapes

2 Ne. 15:4 I looked that it should bring forth grapes

2 Ne. 15:4 It brought forth wild grapes

3 Ne. 14:16 Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of

Barley: None

Figs: None

Grapes: None -------> YIOU CAN SEE NEXT (BELOW) HOW FALSE IS THIS CONCLUSION. IT IS FOR TROPICAL-EQUATORIAL CLIMATE (MEXICO, GUATEMALA)

Wheat: None

This negative score on the plant-life should not be treated too lightly. An abundance of evidence supporting the existence of these plants has been found in other parts of the world of antiquity. The existence of numerous non-Book-of-Mormon plants (maize, lima beans, tomatoes, squash, etc.) has been supported by abundant archaeological findings. I participated in excavating a trench at the edge of the Grijalva River with Edwin Shook, in which we found a ceramic vessel in a stratum dating to about 200 B.C. The vessel contained lima beans that had been burned anciently and discarded—pot and beans—as too badly burned to be edible. And yet they were still in their pristine and perfect form. The beans were carbon-14 dated—helping to place the whole stratum on the true time scale. Art portrayals in ceramics, murals, and sculptured works—of ancient plant life—are fairly commonplace. Thousands of archaeological holes in the area proposed have given us not a fragment of evidence of the presence of the plants mentioned in the Book of Mormon—the holes included the great one dug by Edwin Shook at Tehuacán, Pueblo, Mexico. He excavated a cave—going down and back to 5,000 B.C.—finding most of the major plants of the area. But no wheat, barley, figs, or grapes.

WRONG PLACE. WRONG SCIENTISTS. THEY SHOULD CONSIDER BOOK OF MORMON MORE SERIOUSLY. AND THEY SHOULD BE FARMERS.

I HAVE HAD MANY FARMS IN MY LIFE. SOME FOR COLD WEATHER CONDITIONS. SOME FOR VERY HOT EQUATORIAL CLIMATE CONDITIONS. IT IS VERY ABSRUD FOR MY MIND THE IDEA OF SOME INTELLIGENT CIVILIZATION TRYING TO PLANT VEGETATION FOR VERY COLD CLIMATE IN MY EQUATORIAL FARMS. I WOULD CALL THEM CRAZY. And the opposite is true, because the first frost would kill or ruin such vegetation. For sure it is possible to have some slow genetic manipulation/adaptations.

If these SCIENTISTS used less salt in their Academic diet, they would had selected the correct GEOGRAPHY for the NEPHITIC CIVILIZATION (also Jareditic...) and now they could have TOPOGRAPHIC good maps with the trials followed by Indians in their travels and for their battles. Maybe I would re-open my mapping company for doing that. I already made some maps, for such purpose, just for "demonstration" of such capability and I discovered some huge SUSPENDED BRIDGES over the NIAGARA RIVER, downstream NIAGARA FALLS, in a restricted Military Zone (thus well preserved one....). Many sites were published on that.... I was just following Indian trails, doing some mapping service with USGS topographic maps, of very good quality, and some satelite pictures of very high resolution at hand. And I found the "shoulders" of the Bridges!

It is AMAZING when SCIENTISTS have EYES and can't SEE the evident TRUTH. That their GEOGRAPHY of BOOK OF MORMON is very BIASED, very FAULTY: DEVIATED.

It is PLENTTY OF NATIVE and WILD GRAPES in COLD-TEMPERATED CLIMATE of USA and CANADA. Also of other similar FRUITS of BOOK OF MORMON.

Searched with GOOGLE for GRAPES with: wild NATIVE grapes USA CANADA

· Wild Grape

www.wildfoods.info/wildfoods/wildgrape.html -

From then on, I would occasionally pick a cluster of wild grapes when I was .... are native over a broad area of the eastern United States and Canada and ...

· How to Identify Native Grapevines | eHow.com

www.ehow.com › Plant Care -

Over 20 different species of wild grape are native to the United States and Canada, comprising nearly half of the 50 species of wild grape species ...

· Fast Growing Grape Vines | eHow.com

www.ehow.comPlant Care

Riverbank Grape (Vitis riparia) is a vigorously developing wild grape vine ...

Show more results from e ehow.com

· Grape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grape -

Native purple grapes belonging to the Vitis genus proliferated in the wild across North ... are native to the Eastern United States and Canada. Vitis riparia, a wild vine of North America, is sometimes used for winemaking and for jam. ...

· * Vitis labrusca - (Wine): Definition

en.mimi.hu › Wine -

Vitis Labrusca, which is native to Canada and the eastern United States. ... cross-pollinated version of the wild grape native to North America. ...

· QDMA Canada - Natural Species Profile -- Wild Grapes

www.qdma.ca/index.php?...wild-grapes...

QDMA Canada. slide-top. what-we-do_01 what-we-do_02 what-we-do_03 ... Wild grapes (Vitis spp.) are native to the U.S. and found in the wild in all corners ...

· Types of Grape Vines | Garden Guides

www.gardenguides.com/96039-types-grape-vines.html -

Because a bacteria present in American soils is lethal to non-native grapes, ... Wild Grapes. The United States and Canada together are home to over 20 ...

· Types of Grape

www.cookeryonline.com/mealexperience/Grapes/Index.htm -

Vitis Labrusca, which is native to Canada and the eastern United States. There are over 5000 varieties of wine grapes. Below are some of the main types, ...

· Where Did Grapes Originate?

answers.yourdictionary.com › AnswersFood/Cooking -

The Vitis labrusca is native to the eastern United States, and areas of Canada. The grapes grown on this cultivar are usually used to make table wine, ...

· Grapes - growing Grapes - how to grow Grapes - USA Gardener

usagardener.com/how_to.../how_to_grow_grapes.php -

Tips For Buying Bulk Soil. Frost Dates - USA. Frost Dates - Canada ... and unlike most fruit crops, many grapes are native to North America. The wild grapes found by early settlers were quickly rejected because they were high in acid, ...

With best personal regards, sincerely yours,

SAVELLI

I here by relinquish my brilliant and insightful cut and paste crown to you...

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I here by relinquish my brilliant and insightful cut and paste crown to you...

He claimed he is the one that has compiled lots of info on various websites and put them together on his site. Cut and paste? No question about it. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he compiled the info.

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