Shaken Faith

[ldsfaqs]

To ldsfaqs:

You know, I'm quite disturbed by your username since, to me, it makes it sound like you are the person who has (one would expect) good answers to "lds questions". This is a problem because of the answer you are giving here shows a lack of proper understanding into the objections by ex-believers such as myself in a fair way.

Actually, I do have proper understanding, for I'm both a convert to the Church from other religions, and no religion, and someone who left the Church, by the way primarily because of the Priesthood ban. I know exactly what I'm talking about. Just because you haven't reached the stage that I'm speaking of which exists in information and understanding, that the Church is actually true, and their are reasonable to more accurate ways to look at the information as well as more information to see, doesn't mean what I've said in lacking in proper understanding. I fully understand your objections. You not knowing they are "lacking", doesn't make me not understanding your current position.

First of all, you characterize ex-believers as intellectually lazy. That's quite a big brush to paint us with, I'm telling you.

There are different levels of comprehension. You can know all the facts in the world, but only see and understand what you want to see, or you can know a little and think you know it all. Both positions pre-judge and falsely judge their target. So, I'm well aware that not all ex-believers are intellectually lazy, however most are.

Take the Priesthood ban. Almost no ex-LDS knows that the ban only applied to those of African lineage, not "blacks" period. That blacks of other cultures, India, Central/South America, Islands, etc. were allowed the priesthood. Would you say that is lacking important information to make a proper and informed judgment? Of course, those who have already left don't give a care, but those who haven't left, who learn this, and many other important facts, if their issue is primarily the Priesthood ban, they will not leave once they know the actual truth of things. Unless of course there are other issues at play, such as just being tired of religion, wanting to do what one wants, more interested in other philosophy's at the time, etc. For example, when I left the Church, I was big at the time into Eastern Philosophy's, New Age, etc. Thus, it was easy for me to leave, because something else had my interest more.

Secondly, the whole point of doubt is "why should I have faith in it in the first place if it doesn't seem like being true?" In other words, why should I even "wait" for more information when at present (and making a fair intellectual effort) the best arguments point to the LDS Church not being correct? Most people I know who left the Church did so with more information in their hands than many of those who stay in it.

If you know Mormonism, you know that Faith isn't really a belief, it is an action. Someone who has Faith, Humility, Patience, etc. is someone who is teachable, and who takes the time to learn and understand more accurately the information on a subject. There is a fine line between being so arrogant that you don't learn and see what you need to see and learn, compared to being ignorant. If your glass is full already, what really makes you think you can see and understand more? Like for myself, it wasn't until I put away my judgement of religion and the Church, and then eventually in time I became ready to find out what the actual truth was, if there was a True Church, and if there was actual reasonable answers to the Priesthood ban, and a couple of other issues. My FAITH to seek and to know, having no judgment at all in me, allowed me to learn and see more. I encounter this issue all the time with anti-mormons. I have been doing this about 20 years. On even a basic and simple thing, no matter how much "facts" you show, which unequivocally proves the anti-mormon judgment as false, they act like you never said anything, and just repeat the same falsehood. They just cannot SEE anything beyond their judgmentalism. Understand, I'm not talking nuanced and difficult subjects only here, I'm talking about even easy simple things. On another forum, there is even a non-LDS person who's of another religion, has no belief or interest in mormonism, who constantly corrects the anti-mormons on LDS theology, history, etc. Truth isn't about Faith and belief, it's about character and honesty, and the degree a person is actually interested in knowing the truth, and thus willing to change their opinion.

When people who hate a subject think they "already know", they most certainly do often become intellectually lazy, especially anti-mormons. I can't tell you how many times I've asked anti-mormons to read an LDS scholared paper on a subject, and they won't do it. Not only that, but 5 and 10 years later they are still at the same place, saying the same exact malarkey having not learned a single thing. I've seen this in about 95% of the anti-mormons out there I've interacted with for the last 20 years. Mormons are different, we will read the junk, and then correct it. I'm still reading anti-mormonism, other religions texts, history, etc. every single day, even though I've been there done that already a million times. Yes, maybe someone like you is the exception to the rule, someone who is learned and think they are wise. But, most aren't like you, someone who apparently studies mormonism well but still completely misrepresents and doesn't understand mormonism it's various subjects. People like the Tanners or Saints Alive nut, whomever are learned, but don't see a dang thing. They see a lot of info, but only the info which supports their negative views. I see both negative and positive of the Church, and see that the positive far outweighs the negative, and that most of the negative goes away when the positive is actually fully known. Just like with the Priesthood ban. When I can to really understand the scriptures, Biblical and otherwise, and history, and LDS history etc., on the subject, THAT is when I came to know that the LDS Church was not at all racist. Yes, there were some humans in it, who said and did some dumb of their times human things, but the Church itself was so much different.

Yes, I'm well most leave the Church with "more info" in their hands. Problem is, is it's incomplete and mostly negative info. Just enough info to be dangerous, but not enough info to actually know what the actual truth is. I know the pattern. I didn't even know of the Priesthood ban, until it was removed, the Church seemed so non-racist in both theology and people. So, I know what it's like to be hit with information that floors you and surprises you, saying, how can this be in a "true" church. I get it. But there IS more, because the Church actually is true. If you lose faith, and allow that doubt to nourish and grow in you, you become blind to the actual truth. Hate blinds.

Thirdly, you swiftly assume ex-believers become "anti-mormons", a caricature that only serves to paint us in a dehumanizing manner. Do you think some of us may actually be sincere in our beliefs that the LDS Church is wrong and shouldn't be followed?

Just because I didn't mention the "exception" to the rule, doesn't mean I am not aware of that fact. Of course, I also was talking about those who leave the Church for intellectual reasons, not simply all ex-believers. I'm well aware that a good half of those who leave the Church leave for their own reasons, not actually intellectual based.

I don't doubt the "sincerity". I doubt the character and truthfulness.

Take the Jesus Christ / Joseph Smith video some years ago. You could truly see in that video that they were truly sincere, and that they truly did love mormons and wanted to help us. But, problem was, what they were doing was a truly great evil, because their every word about mormonism was a lie and misrepresentation. What they did is like saying the righteous good old man down the street, who has loved children for years, and been great in the community, but turns out to be a long and multiple time child molester means he is actually a good person. He may be good in some of his fruits, but he's down right evil in his other fruits. That's anti-mormonism. Anti-mormonism doesn't simply make the rare human scholarly error in their works, they outright lie and misrepresent almost everything they say about Mormonism and Mormons. That's not sincere goodness, that's a perverted evil, and a very serious problem. That is not serving good or truth, that's serving the Father of Lies.

Sincerity doesn't make good. Ones Fruits is what makes good. Even the Jewish anti-defamation league condemned the above video I mentioned. And we aren't Jewish.

So, if even the Jews are saying anti-mormonism is bigotry and bearing false witness, not to mention other fair minded non-mormons out there, did you ever think you might be on the wrong side?

It's one thing to not agree, and one thing to not believe, and one thing to think we are false. But, it's another to bear false witness. This is primarily why we mormons are out here defending the faith, because of the lying that's going on.

This goes against faith, so please spare us the power-talk.

The existance of additional important information and facts, and understanding related thereto, does not go against Faith.

Are you sure you were ever really a Mormon? Of course, that's another phenomenum with ex-mormons who become anti-mormon, they loose the knowledge and understanding they used to have, even on the very basics of the faith and theology. As someone who knew Mormonism, you would know that Faith is the "evidence" of things not seen, but which are true. Mormonism is based on Truth, not belief alone. Truth is facts and information, not blind belief. Faith is action based on evidence, to the gaining of more knowledge and understanding. Don't you remember as a mormon, how when you read the scriptures, you could read one thing over and over, and then one day, something clicks, and you see something even more profound that you didn't see before in that particular text you were reading?

Gaining truth is line upon line, precept upon precept. I give my own witness from not only judgment, but experience that my words are the absolute truth.

and rightly so.

Yes, it is reasonable when first learning the simple statement "priesthood ban for blacks". But, that statement isn't the actual and whole truth.

The first lie that needs to be corrected, is it wasn't "blacks", it was those of African Lineage, which also applied to some whites, and didn't also apply to many other blacks.

And we go on and on from there, with the actual facts and truth of the ban, until ultimately discovering, that the ban wasn't based on racism by the Church, but likely the racism outside of it in the world.

"? If the "more to the story" part shows the truth to be favorable to the Church, why faith? Any reasonable third party should be able to look at the "more to the story" and determine the best explanation to be in favor of the Church so, why faith here? Secondly, you make your faith completely unfalsifiable since if you find something unfavorable you will still counsel someone to have faith. This method seems as far from objectivity as I can imagine.

Are you sure you were actually LDS???

Even LDS children know what Faith is in Mormonism. As I've already explained, Faith is an action word, not simply belief standing still. Faith is what makes you get up in the morning. You don't know everything, but you have some expectations, and you go forward and learn and do, and then your life has growth or increase. There is no "falsifiability" in Faith. Have you not learned by now that mormonism is all about "objectivity", seeking and knowing the truth from where-ever it may come? Most LDS are mini-Joseph Smiths. We aren't interested in "boxes", man-made religions, creationism, or any other anti-intellectualism, we are interested in only the truth of and in all things.

Anyway, I hope I've clarified for you what the actual truth is of these issues. It's still up to you to understand. If you're not ready to understand, not ready to harvest, you simply will not see. You will only see what you want to see, the things which support your views. Let's see for example, as all anti-mormons before you who aren't able to change their judgments with more information, if you finally understand what Faith is according to Mormonism, or if you will continue treating us like any and most other religions, where faith is supposedly just "blind belief" having no intellectual basis at all. Will you change or not? This will show if you are actually teachable, and as learned as you think you are. Of course, I've now likely ruined the experiment, and so you might actually be willing to correct yourself. Of course, it all depends on you, where you are in your own journey.

Edited July 29, 2011 by ldsfaqs

[HeatherAnn]

...As I've already explained, Faith is an action word, not simply belief standing still. Faith is what makes you get up in the morning. You don't know everything, but you have some expectations, and you go forward and learn and do, and then your life has growth or increase. There is no "falsifiability" in Faith. Have you not learned by now that mormonism is all about "objectivity", seeking and knowing the truth from where-ever it may come? Most LDS are mini-Joseph Smiths. We aren't interested in "boxes", man-made religions, creationism, or any other anti-intellectualism, we are interested in only the truth of and in all things.

I agree that "faith without works is dead." I also believe that we regularly exercise some form of faith.

When I read the OP... it reminded me that, "Anger is the result of unrealistic expectations."

I disagree with some of your points. Since we are not all-knowing, nor perfectly aligned with what's in our highest interest, there IS "falsifiability" in faith. Mormonism is NOT objective. Joseph Smith did teach to look to truth where-ever it may come, yet he also taught to "follow the prophet" - the latter, seems to predominate. We are NOT interested in the truth in all things. Most people, including Mormons, have a love-hate relationship with the truth - I know I have. What makes us happy is often dreams - focusing on the good, to the exclusion of the bad. Who wants to take a nice "get away" vacation to see the poverty out in the African bush?

My faith has been shaken, rattled & rolled!

It's been exciting! - Discovering new perspectives & realizing a lot of my emotional pain was all in my own thoughts has also been healing.

Yet, it's also been a grieving process - a series of let downs.

I'm starting to see the priceless worth of faith in anything - even illusions.

Edited July 29, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Ahab]

We are NOT interested in the truth in all things. Most people, including Mormons, have a love-hate relationship with the truth - I know I have. What makes us happy is often dreams - focusing on the good, to the exclusion of the bad. Who wants to take a nice "get away" vacation to see the poverty out in the African bush?

I think I understand what you're saying, but I wouldn't say we're not interested in knowing ALL truth. I prefer to look at the bright side and look for the virtues in people and the world... following the admonition of Paul as we say in the Articles of Faith... but I'm still interested in becoming versed in the knowledge of bad and evil things that are happening, too, while trying to help where I can, rather than trying to pretend that the bad and evil stuff really isn't out there. It's a fine line... wanting to know all truth but yet focus more on the good stuff... but if I avoided learning about all of the bad stuff my knowledge and experiences in the world wouldn't get me to the point I want to get to... knowing and understanding EVERYTHING our Father knows and understands.

[HeatherAnn]

I think I understand what you're saying, but I wouldn't say we're not interested in knowing ALL truth. I prefer to look at the bright side and look for the virtues in people and the world... following the admonition of Paul as we say in the Articles of Faith... but I'm still interested in becoming versed in the knowledge of bad and evil things that are happening, too, while trying to help where I can, rather than trying to pretend that the bad and evil stuff really isn't out there. It's a fine line... wanting to know all truth but yet focus more on the good stuff... but if I avoided learning about all of the bad stuff my knowledge and experiences in the world wouldn't get me to the point I want to get to... knowing and understanding EVERYTHING our Father knows and understands.

Like Jack Nicholson said in "A Few Good Men"... "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

No offense, though, because I can't handle it either.

I take it in little bits here & there... line upon line is about all I can handle.

[Craig Paxton]

I think one thing that needs to be added to this conversation is that Honestly people....the church just may NOT be what it claims to be...and those with so-called shaken faith are the smart ones who realize that things just don't add up.

It's easy to point fingers and say that they've lost their way, were offended, wanted to sin, under Satan's power...but maybe...just maybe...they're the smart ones

Edited July 29, 2011 by Craig Paxton

[TAO]

I think one thing that needs to be added to this conversation is that Honestly people....the church just may NOT be what it claims to be...and those with so-called shaken faith are the smart ones who realize that things just don't add up.

It's easy to point fingers and say that they've lost their way, were offended, wanted to sin, under Satan's power...but maybe...just maybe...they're the smart ones

Sure, but does that matter? Nah... what mattes is that we do the best with what we have capable of =). God's gift to us is responsibility, and agency =D.

One of my favorite verses in the Book of Mormon:

Mosiah 27:37

And how blessed are they! For they did publish peace; they did publish good tidings of good; and they did declare unto the people that the Lord reigneth.

We all get too lost in the fight sometimes, and forget to do this XD. We need to fix that =D.

Edited July 29, 2011 by TAO

[Ahab]

Like Jack Nicholson said in "A Few Good Men"... "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

No offense, though, because I can't handle it either.

Speak for yourself, please. I'm sure I can handle it as I have been while God just keeps dishing it out to me.

I take it in little bits here & there... line upon line is about all I can handle.

Well then I would say that you are handling it just fine.

I never suggested that the only choice was between to have it all at once or to not ever have all of it.

[Ahab]

I think one thing that needs to be added to this conversation is that Honestly people....the church just may NOT be what it claims to be...and those with so-called shaken faith are the smart ones who realize that things just don't add up.

It's easy to point fingers and say that they've lost their way, were offended, wanted to sin, under Satan's power...but maybe...just maybe...they're the smart ones

Yes, and it now looks like both sides have been represented here.

What would this board (and this world) be like if everybody saw everything the same way and agreed with each other about everything ???

[wenglund]

I can certainly see why you might think that...and you might even be right, but it was not my intention to lean, only, on my own understanding. I still believed in God and Christ as my Savior, and I was reading the Bible in a very different way (without LDS footnotes). Church history started the questioning, but reading the Bible and leaning on a more direct interpretation, was also very influential. I realize, now, that all religions have their own interpretations, and the Bible speaks many things that can be interpreted in many different ways.

Certainly not my intention to place myself above God. I really don't think I have done that.

I can respect that.

However, one can believe in Christ and the Bible and still in some ways inadvertently place themselves above God by supplanting themselves in roles that God has reserved for himself--rolls like being the source for discerning: 1) the path to take; 2) the verity of various truth claims; 3) which Church is Gods; 4) which scriptures are of him; 5) who are his prophets and leaders. In each of these cases you evidently leaned unto your own understanding, and whether intended or not, in so doing you positioned yourself above God. You have somewhat decided to take your own Christ-related path. You have yourself and man made history to judge certain truth claims. You have formed your own christian church, and called and anointed yourself as its earthly leader. Even in your reading and interpretation of the Bible aren't you ultimately leaning on your own understanding rather than leaving that to the guidance of the Spirit?

Granted, at some point and in some ways leaning to our own understanding and positioning ourselves above God is unavoidable and even desired by God. Ultimately, we are the one's who make choices for ourselves. We can't, and ought not relenquish that to others. God can't make our choices for us, or at least he won't rob us of our agency. In terms of ultimately making our own decisions, we are rightly above God. However, we can choose to let God advise and influence our decisions and to teach and show us his ways. In short, we can chose to be humble and subject to God, or be prideful and independent.

Without that faith, it is not the best means. Without faith, it becomes meaningless (even if it is objectively true).

Right. And, one can't have that needed faith without humbly adhering to the means/process that God has availed us for growing in faith--which doesn't include relying on the arm of flesh instead of God regarding the things of God.

My faith was not stagnate...really, it wasn't. I loved the church and everything about it. Never thought anything could shake my faith. If anything I was probably much too sure of myself.

By "stagnation" I mean lacking in specific direction and purpose and thus not reasonably progressing towards a specific direction and purpose. You said yourself that you had no particular outcome in mind.

Granted, faith is a principle of action, and your faith may have been active. However, absent a direction and purpose for which to directed that faith, there is no way to determine progress, only movement. And, absent the ability to determine progress, one can't really progress, an in that sense is becoming stagnate, wondering aimlessly, and thus rendering faith pointless, which can't help but eventually cause a lose of faith.

To be more precise, if you don't know where you wish to head or where you are headed, you aren't really going anywhere, and the actions generated by your faith are in vain.

More important, when you lack direction and purpose, and thus don't subject yourself to the direction and purpose of God, you unwittingly place yourself at the whim of divergent and potentially opposing forces, to be tossed too and fro by every wind of doctrine. Even were you to have a spiritual compass, it matters naught if you have no where to go. Of what value is knowing which way is due north if that is not where you are headed? Hence, you current situation.

I submit that had you used God instead of yourself as your spiritual compass, working his compass as he designed it; and had your mind been single to to God's glorious purposes for us, his children, I believe it unlikely that you would have lost faith because you would likely have realized that the historical matters that "blindsided" you aren't really relevant to, but rather a distraction from, progressing in faith in becoming like Christ and fulfilling the fourfold mission of his restored church.

For what it may be worth.

I don't say this by way of criticism, but by way of information. I respect your right to chose your own faith path, whether it leads to any particular outcome or not, and I wish you well in your choices.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

I think one thing that needs to be added to this conversation is that Honestly people....the church just may NOT be what it claims to be...and those with so-called shaken faith are the smart ones who realize that things just don't add up.

It's easy to point fingers and say that they've lost their way, were offended, wanted to sin, under Satan's power...but maybe...just maybe...they're the smart ones.

I won't deny that they may honestly believe they are smarter even than God. For my part, I don't trust so much in my own smarts, but rather in God's. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[elguanteloko]

Actually, I do have proper understanding, for I'm both a convert to the Church from other religions, and no religion, and someone who left the Church, by the way primarily because of the Priesthood ban. I know exactly what I'm talking about. Just because you haven't reached the stage that I'm speaking of which exists in information and understanding, that the Church is actually true, and their are reasonable to more accurate ways to look at the information as well as more information to see, doesn't mean what I've said in lacking in proper understanding. I fully understand your objections. You not knowing they are "lacking", doesn't make me not understanding your current position.

There are different levels of comprehension. You can know all the facts in the world, but only see and understand what you want to see, or you can know a little and think you know it all. Both positions pre-judge and falsely judge their target. So, I'm well aware that not all ex-believers are intellectually lazy, however most are.

Take the Priesthood ban. Almost no ex-LDS knows that the ban only applied to those of African lineage, not "blacks" period. That blacks of other cultures, India, Central/South America, Islands, etc. were allowed the priesthood. Would you say that is lacking important information to make a proper and informed judgment? Of course, those who have already left don't give a care, but those who haven't left, who learn this, and many other important facts, if their issue is primarily the Priesthood ban, they will not leave once they know the actual truth of things. Unless of course there are other issues at play, such as just being tired of religion, wanting to do what one wants, more interested in other philosophy's at the time, etc. For example, when I left the Church, I was big at the time into Eastern Philosophy's, New Age, etc. Thus, it was easy for me to leave, because something else had my interest more.

If you know Mormonism, you know that Faith isn't really a belief, it is an action. Someone who has Faith, Humility, Patience, etc. is someone who is teachable, and who takes the time to learn and understand more accurately the information on a subject. There is a fine line between being so arrogant that you don't learn and see what you need to see and learn, compared to being ignorant. If your glass is full already, what really makes you think you can see and understand more? Like for myself, it wasn't until I put away my judgement of religion and the Church, and then eventually in time I became ready to find out what the actual truth was, if there was a True Church, and if there was actual reasonable answers to the Priesthood ban, and a couple of other issues. My FAITH to seek and to know, having no judgment at all in me, allowed me to learn and see more. I encounter this issue all the time with anti-mormons. I have been doing this about 20 years. On even a basic and simple thing, no matter how much "facts" you show, which unequivocally proves the anti-mormon judgment as false, they act like you never said anything, and just repeat the same falsehood. They just cannot SEE anything beyond their judgmentalism. Understand, I'm not talking nuanced and difficult subjects only here, I'm talking about even easy simple things. On another forum, there is even a non-LDS person who's of another religion, has no belief or interest in mormonism, who constantly corrects the anti-mormons on LDS theology, history, etc. Truth isn't about Faith and belief, it's about character and honesty, and the degree a person is actually interested in knowing the truth, and thus willing to change their opinion.

When people who hate a subject think they "already know", they most certainly do often become intellectually lazy, especially anti-mormons. I can't tell you how many times I've asked anti-mormons to read an LDS scholared paper on a subject, and they won't do it. Not only that, but 5 and 10 years later they are still at the same place, saying the same exact malarkey having not learned a single thing. I've seen this in about 95% of the anti-mormons out there I've interacted with for the last 20 years. Mormons are different, we will read the junk, and then correct it. I'm still reading anti-mormonism, other religions texts, history, etc. every single day, even though I've been there done that already a million times. Yes, maybe someone like you is the exception to the rule, someone who is learned and think they are wise. But, most aren't like you, someone who apparently studies mormonism well but still completely misrepresents and doesn't understand mormonism it's various subjects. People like the Tanners or Saints Alive nut, whomever are learned, but don't see a dang thing. They see a lot of info, but only the info which supports their negative views. I see both negative and positive of the Church, and see that the positive far outweighs the negative, and that most of the negative goes away when the positive is actually fully known. Just like with the Priesthood ban. When I can to really understand the scriptures, Biblical and otherwise, and history, and LDS history etc., on the subject, THAT is when I came to know that the LDS Church was not at all racist. Yes, there were some humans in it, who said and did some dumb of their times human things, but the Church itself was so much different.

Yes, I'm well most leave the Church with "more info" in their hands. Problem is, is it's incomplete and mostly negative info. Just enough info to be dangerous, but not enough info to actually know what the actual truth is. I know the pattern. I didn't even know of the Priesthood ban, until it was removed, the Church seemed so non-racist in both theology and people. So, I know what it's like to be hit with information that floors you and surprises you, saying, how can this be in a "true" church. I get it. But there IS more, because the Church actually is true. If you lose faith, and allow that doubt to nourish and grow in you, you become blind to the actual truth. Hate blinds.

Just because I didn't mention the "exception" to the rule, doesn't mean I am not aware of that fact. Of course, I also was talking about those who leave the Church for intellectual reasons, not simply all ex-believers. I'm well aware that a good half of those who leave the Church leave for their own reasons, not actually intellectual based.

I don't doubt the "sincerity". I doubt the character and truthfulness.

Take the Jesus Christ / Joseph Smith video some years ago. You could truly see in that video that they were truly sincere, and that they truly did love mormons and wanted to help us. But, problem was, what they were doing was a truly great evil, because their every word about mormonism was a lie and misrepresentation. What they did is like saying the righteous good old man down the street, who has loved children for years, and been great in the community, but turns out to be a long and multiple time child molester means he is actually a good person. He may be good in some of his fruits, but he's down right evil in his other fruits. That's anti-mormonism. Anti-mormonism doesn't simply make the rare human scholarly error in their works, they outright lie and misrepresent almost everything they say about Mormonism and Mormons. That's not sincere goodness, that's a perverted evil, and a very serious problem. That is not serving good or truth, that's serving the Father of Lies.

Sincerity doesn't make good. Ones Fruits is what makes good. Even the Jewish anti-defamation league condemned the above video I mentioned. And we aren't Jewish.

So, if even the Jews are saying anti-mormonism is bigotry and bearing false witness, not to mention other fair minded non-mormons out there, did you ever think you might be on the wrong side?

It's one thing to not agree, and one thing to not believe, and one thing to think we are false. But, it's another to bear false witness. This is primarily why we mormons are out here defending the faith, because of the lying that's going on.

The existance of additional important information and facts, and understanding related thereto, does not go against Faith.

Are you sure you were ever really a Mormon? Of course, that's another phenomenum with ex-mormons who become anti-mormon, they loose the knowledge and understanding they used to have, even on the very basics of the faith and theology. As someone who knew Mormonism, you would know that Faith is the "evidence" of things not seen, but which are true. Mormonism is based on Truth, not belief alone. Truth is facts and information, not blind belief. Faith is action based on evidence, to the gaining of more knowledge and understanding. Don't you remember as a mormon, how when you read the scriptures, you could read one thing over and over, and then one day, something clicks, and you see something even more profound that you didn't see before in that particular text you were reading?

Gaining truth is line upon line, precept upon precept. I give my own witness from not only judgment, but experience that my words are the absolute truth.

Yes, it is reasonable when first learning the simple statement "priesthood ban for blacks". But, that statement isn't the actual and whole truth.

The first lie that needs to be corrected, is it wasn't "blacks", it was those of African Lineage, which also applied to some whites, and didn't also apply to many other blacks.

And we go on and on from there, with the actual facts and truth of the ban, until ultimately discovering, that the ban wasn't based on racism by the Church, but likely the racism outside of it in the world.

I can only qualify all this you wrote as "funny". I'm not going to waste my time there.

Are you sure you were actually LDS???

Even LDS children know what Faith is in Mormonism. As I've already explained, Faith is an action word, not simply belief standing still.

technically speaking, all beliefs are actions (verbs). Faith is a trust, though, to be precise. I also never implied "faith" was merely a "belief standing still" and I don't know where you get that from.

Faith is what makes you get up in the morning. You don't know everything, but you have some expectations, and you go forward and learn and do, and then your life has growth or increase.

let's say this is faith. if that's the case then there are silly faiths and smarter or better faiths and I would classify faith in God a silly faith. Faith that I will be able to earn some money if I work is something much better justified than faith that God will cure grandma's cancer. So, even if all non-knowledge beliefs are faiths, you aren't justifying having faith in the Church.

There is no "falsifiability" in Faith.

actually there is and I first suggest you google what "falsifiability" means first.

Have you not learned by now that mormonism is all about "objectivity", seeking and knowing the truth from where-ever it may come?

have you not learned that if you "know the truth" you don't have faith in it?

Most LDS are mini-Joseph Smiths. We aren't interested in "boxes", man-made religions, creationism, or any other anti-intellectualism, we are interested in only the truth of and in all things.

Anyway, I hope I've clarified for you what the actual truth is of these issues. It's still up to you to understand. If you're not ready to understand, not ready to harvest, you simply will not see. You will only see what you want to see, the things which support your views. Let's see for example, as all anti-mormons before you who aren't able to change their judgments with more information, if you finally understand what Faith is according to Mormonism, or if you will continue treating us like any and most other religions, where faith is supposedly just "blind belief" having no intellectual basis at all. Will you change or not? This will show if you are actually teachable, and as learned as you think you are. Of course, I've now likely ruined the experiment, and so you might actually be willing to correct yourself. Of course, it all depends on you, where you are in your own journey.

more 'funny' stuff here.

[Ahab]

I can only qualify all this you wrote as "funny".

The apostle Paul said that those who don't spiritually discern what is true consider the gospel to be "foolishness", but if you'd rather use the word "funny", go ahead.

I think his point is being well demonstrated by YOU.

[elguanteloko]

The apostle Paul said that those who don't spiritually discern what is true consider the gospel to be "foolishness", but if you'd rather use the word "funny", go ahead.

I think his point is being well demonstrated by YOU.

I wasn't talking about the gospel but about what he said. What he said is a poor presentation of a poor picture of the gospel. I find the Gospel itself actually not foolish at all. Not convincing and wrong, but not foolish.

[Kenngo1969]

As the saying goes (not sure who said it), “I have a testimony of the gospel, not church history”. What faith does not embellish?

I believe it was Davis Bitton: "I Don't Have a Testimony of the History of the Church".

Edited July 29, 2011 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

I think one thing that needs to be added to this conversation is that Honestly people....the church just may NOT be what it claims to be...and those with so-called shaken faith are the smart ones who realize that things just don't add up. ...

Uuuy! Nuthin' like the smell of fresh condescension in the afternoon! I'll make you a deal: I won't speculate as to why anyone leaves if you'll avoid attributing the fact that people stay to an alleged lack of intelligence! Sheesh!

Edited July 29, 2011 by Kenngo1969

[ldsfaqs]

I think one thing that needs to be added to this conversation is that Honestly people....the church just may NOT be what it claims to be...and those with so-called shaken faith are the smart ones who realize that things just don't add up.

It's easy to point fingers and say that they've lost their way, were offended, wanted to sin, under Satan's power...but maybe...just maybe...they're the smart ones

I and many other have already proved that hypothesis false.

[elguanteloko]

I and many other have already proved that hypothesis false.

you heard that, Craig Paxton? It.Has.Been. PROVED!

lol

Edited July 29, 2011 by elguanteloko

[HeatherAnn]

Speak for yourself, please. I'm sure I can handle it as I have been while God just keeps dishing it out to me.

Well then I would say that you are handling it just fine.

I never suggested that the only choice was between to have it all at once or to not ever have all of it.

Yeah, I realized the miscommunication... I meant, we can't handle the truth, the whole truth & nothin' but the truth.

Thanks for the encouragment. I'd like to THINK I'm handling it fine... but honestly, I often duck & hide - do anything, including type on a forum to avoid truth! lol

I think our internal house will be built on a firm unshakey foundation if we realize that we don't know much!

It will also be more firm, if we look within, instead of externally, for the spirituality & happiness we seek.

I don't mean to be self-centered, but to be aware that everything is filtered through OUR minds, & take responsibility & empowerment for that.

[Ahab]

Yeah, I realized the miscommunication... I meant, we can't handle the truth, the whole truth & nothin' but the truth.

Thanks for the encouragment. I'd like to THINK I'm handling it fine... but honestly, I often duck & hide - do anything, including type on a forum to avoid truth! lol

Oh, well, yeah, but there's no need for us to know everything about everything before we take a step and then another step and then... one step at a time.

I think our internal house will be built on a firm unshakey foundation if we realize that we don't know much!

Humility is key, but we also need to know when we know enough to take a step, rather than wait around until we know absolutley everything before we do anything.

It will also be more firm, if we look within, instead of externally, for the spirituality & happiness we seek.

Nope. We need to look at God and keep our eyes on him at all times. He is our Rock, through Jesus Christ. Those ain't just words, ya know.

I don't mean to be self-centered, but to be aware that everything is filtered through OUR minds, & take responsibility & empowerment for that.

Sometimes I think I undertand you but the words sometimes get in the way.

I take a step forward when I'm "sure" that what I think is the thought God wants me to have... when it is essentially HIS thought that I have on my mind.

If I'm not very sure about that I get all wibbly wobbly, and I'd rather not stand on shaky ground.

[HeatherAnn]

Oh, well, yeah, but there's no need for us to know everything about everything before we take a step and then another step and then... one step at a time.

Humility is key, but we also need to know when we know enough to take a step, rather than wait around until we know absolutley everything before we do anything.

Good points, Ahab.

Nope. We need to look at God and keep our eyes on him at all times. He is our Rock, through Jesus Christ. Those ain't just words, ya know.

Actually, they are just words, with attached meaning, which varies with each unique individual's interpretation.

Define God.

Define Jesus.

Define Christ.

I'd guess how I define these are very different from how you do.

Sometimes I think I undertand you but the words sometimes get in the way.

See? Words influence us more than we may think.

I take a step forward when I'm "sure" that what I think is the thought God wants me to have... when it is essentially HIS thought that I have on my mind.

FAITH is never sure... but HOPING & striving for what we think is best, through trial & error (which is also LOVE).

Your experience of God is within you (as Jesus explained in Luke 17)...

Yet I do believe we can resonate with BOTH masculine & feminine energies that also constitute God.

[ldsfaqs]

you heard that, Craig Paxton? It.Has.Been. PROVED!

lol

Yes, that's right. It's called the Scientific Method. Ever heard of it? I have definitively proven that anti-mormons are not the "smart-ones".

Unlike religious and spiritual claims, facts and data that people present are easily verifiable and comparable with other claims, and so is methodology, whether it is quality scholarship, or bigoted hit pieces.

Any actual objective person be they LDS or not can see on a claim by simple comparison if an anti-mormon data is fully accurate, or the LDS data is fully accurate.

For example, Jewish Anti-Defamation Leagues often put out statements condemning certain anti-mormon works. These works by the way, are no different than the things anti-mormons say all the time, so, it's not as if the works were especially immoral. They've condemned the most extreme Ed Decker and the least extreme Joseph Smith/Jesus Christ DVD put out a couple of years ago. There are other objective people out there, who have their own beliefs and views, who don't misrepresent or lie about mormonism, and can see how anti-mormons lie.

Problem is, most people tend to be focused in one direction or another and having interests and lack of interest in one direction or another, and they don't sit back and objectively take and compare two sides using the scientific method. For example, those who have no interest in religion, or are already a part of a religion, they see that there was a "Priesthood Ban" in the LDS Church, and maybe a couple seeming racist or ethno-centrist quotes by an LDS leader, they then say to themselves and in public..... "Evil, the LDS Church is racist". Now, what went wrong here? They made a judgment without even seeing if there was more to the story, if the info was really the whole truth of the matter. Maybe at some point later they might learn a little more, but their objectivity is gone, and their bias is already set, so they see nothing else but racism. That's how most people do things..... Most people, don't use the scientific method. They don't see a claim, and they don't then seek out more information from all sides on the claim to see what is the actual truth on the issue, and THEN make a judgment.

I've been in various other religions, I've been a basic believing LDS, I've been an anti-mormon/anti-religion, and I've been a full and forever believer.

And what did I do during that entire process? I compared and contrasted perspectives, seeing what was and wasn't from one stage to the next.

You can't say I haven't proved that anti-mormons aren't the smart ones, because you haven't actually gone to the next stage of understanding to know and see how I can know and claim that.

During the period when I was interested in finally finding out what was really true, I had no interest or bias one way or another, I was only interested in the absolute truth. I would have been perfectly happy if the Church and other religions were false. So, after eliminating all other religions as potential reasonable candidates, I sat down, took an anti-mormon claim, and and took the LDS scholarship on the same subject, and saw clearly and easily each and every point where the anti-mormon omits important info, makes false statements and assumptions, degrades unfairly, is hypocritical, etc., thus I saw clearly that the anti-mormon isn't at all telling the truth. It's not just a couple of issues, it's almost every single issue and statement they make as I would very quickly learn. At the time, I did the same process with about 3 other issues, and the same pattern emerged. Anti-mormons did nothing but use a little truth to tell great lies, misrepresented statements and facts, omitted facts, etc.

Anyway, comparing data of two sides, seeing which is actually "smarter", telling the whole truth, is most certainly a "provable" exercise.

Not my problem if you don't actually use that ability and understanding when it comes to mormonism. And if you think you do, you don't, because your contempt and bias is already strongly set, your glass is all FULL, and you don't see any other information and connections other than that bias.

[elguanteloko]

Yes, that's right. It's called the Scientific Method. Ever heard of it? I have definitively proven that anti-mormons are not the "smart-ones".

LOL!

I think you also need to read this one:

http://www.amazon.co...k/dp/B000OT7WLC

as a hint, "verifiability" is a bygone idea, ldsfaqs. science works through falsifiability (something you previously showed no knowledge of), NOT verifiability.

If your still on the topic, you might as well go the next step:

http://www.amazon.com/Structure-Scientific-Revolutions-ebook/dp/B0037CI7IA/ref=pd_sim_kinc_1?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2

Edited July 30, 2011 by elguanteloko

[ldsfaqs]

Worthless...

[Xander]

I do not think desired outcomes play much of a role in most people who become disaffected from the Church. I know few people who complain about such things, and those who did rarely held the Church responsible.

I feel sad when I see so many people in the Church pretend to understand what it is like to go through a crisis of faith, just because they once had doubts or briefly left the Church. This is like someone pretending to understand what it is like to suffer nine months of agonizing terminal cancer simply because he or she once had a benign tumor. This isn't to suggest apostasy is a disease, but to point out the reality that many of these people are suffering. I think this too often gets lost in the mix of LDS "explanations" as to why so many people end up leaving the faith.

If you really want to understand why some people leave the faith, why not ask them?

For me it had nothing to do with failed expectations, bitter resentment or a desire to sin.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

If you really want to understand why some people leave the faith, why not ask them?

For me it had nothing to do with failed expectations, bitter resentment or a desire to sin.

It seems to me that "failed expectations" would be a factor in a lot of people who have lost their faith. But if your experience is different, then I'm curious as to the cause of your lost faith.