Tetraforce Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Surely a known friend of the oldbies, Lynn Ridenhour proposed this challange. I want you to write a book. Be the editor.AssignmentI want you to find a male lad between the ages of 23 and 24. He cannot be a college graduate. In fact, he can possess only three years of formal schooling. He must write a history of an ancient country (such as Tibet), covering a period from 600 BC to 421 AD. Put the history into a book with 102 chapters Link to comment
Dr. Shades Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 The lad must include in his writings the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people.The Jaredites weren't contemporary.His writings must describe the religious, economic, social and political cultures and institutions of these two nations.And there must never be any trace of any of those two nations discovered anywhere.It must hold literary styles that are found in the Bible. Such as quotations from other Jewish scriptures, especially Isaiah.The last I heard, quoting something else was a pretty easy thing to do.Testimonies, . . .Testimonies are easy to come by. Heck, people testify all the time that there is one God and Mohammed is his prophet. Does that make it true?hymns and poems, . . .Which the Book of Mormon contains none of.dramatic happenings, . . .Uhh, the last time I checked, all fictional books are chock-full of dramatic happenings. Heck, for that matter, High School is full of dramatic happenings.letters, . . .I've written lots of letters in my day. Do I count?sermons, . . .Anyone raised in a Christian environment would be readily able to mimic or produce some of those.patriarchal blessings, . . .None of which can prophesy anything which is to happen after your book is written.theological discourses, . . .The truth of a theological discourse is impossible to objectively verify, so that sounds rather easy to do.battle accounts and social collapses.Lots of fictional books are full of those, too. The ones in Michael Moorcock's Elric series are much more dramatic and haunting than those in the Book of Mormon.He must weave into his history the gospel of Jesus Christ and the pattern for Christian living.Not too hard for someone with a copy of the Bible and a Christian upbringing.The lad Link to comment
pseudogratix Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 I want you to find a male lad between the ages of 23 and 24...Did you clip this from http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/me_...JosephSmith.htm ?It looks very similar to that of Peter C. Covino, Jr.'s "33 Challenges of the Book of Mormon" as posted at @ http://www.konnections.com/kcun****/chall.html . Anyway, see "Scripture and Influential Writings > Book of Mormon > Challenge of the Book of Mormon" @ http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai117.htmlAlso see "The Challenge of the Book of Mormon" by Daniel H. Ludlow @ http://gospelink.com/library/doc?book_doc_id=264987 Link to comment
Programmer Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 After pauses for sleep and food, if dictating to a stenographer, he must never ask to have the last paragraph or sentence read back to him.Not too hard to do if you're reading off a plagiarized manuscript.Another thing, the lad must not be allowed to research any of the subjects he Link to comment
Guest Just Curious Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 After pauses for sleep and food, if dictating to a stenographer, he must never ask to have the last paragraph or sentence read back to him.The scribes said the sentences WERE read back to him !!!! Link to comment
Daniel Peterson Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 After pauses for sleep and food, if dictating to a stenographer, he must never ask to have the last paragraph or sentence read back to him.The scribes said the sentences WERE read back to him !!!!You're misunderstanding, Mr. Curious. Having sentences immediately read back to assure that the dictation had been transcribed correctly is distinct from having a previous sentence or paragraph re-read, after an absence, so as to get the creative juices flowing again. Witnesses testify to the former, but at least one expressly denies the latter.I'm interested in this manuscript of which the obviously not-as-skeptical-as-he-claims-to-be Mr. Shades speaks. Can he identify it specifically? Does he perhaps have a copy of it that the rest of us can examine? Link to comment
John Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 I guess that is Dr. Dr. Shades' way of saying "no, I coulden't do what Joseph Smith did in a million years! but I can give you all these reasons why anybody could do it!"The Jaredites weren't contemporaryI think he was talking about the Lamanites / Nephites.And there must never be any trace of any of those two nations discovered anywhere.Ever been to central/south america? see all those ruins all over the place...The last I heard, quoting something else was a pretty easy thing to doActually, the Isaiah verses are less then 50% exact quotes, so I guess Joseph Smith was smart enough to not only understand, but rewrite Isaiah (ya, thats right, you heard me, ISAIAH)Anyone raised in a Christian environment would be readily able to mimic or produce some of those.Alright, write up a dozen sermons, quoting various things that not only apply to us now, but to people 100 years from now, quoting from the old testament and other sources, and get back to us. oh ya, and it has to be on a dozen subjects.None of which can prophesy anything which is to happen after your book is written.prehaps you ought to reread the Book of Mormon. (although I doubt you have even read it once.)The truth of a theological discourse is impossible to objectively verify, so that sounds rather easy to do.Read Alma 30, thats a great theological discourse right there.Not too hard for someone with a copy of the Bible and a Christian upbringing.Alrighty, then why hasen't anybody ever succeded at the Book of Mormon Challange?Lots of books are longer than that.Ah yes, but none that I can think of were written in 80 days.That sounds like another Mormon urban legend to me. Does anyone have a list of these supposed 180 proper nouns added to the English language? I'd like to look them up.Uh, hate to bring you back to english class, but a proper noun includes names, tribes, cities, and places, of which there are probobly at least 180.Declaring something to be actual history is easy. Having your declaration be true is something else entirely.Lets take the example of the holocaust: lots of people don't think somthing of that magnitude could actually happen, but did it? yes. do those peoples' belief that it wasen't real make it any LESS real? no.Are you kidding? He made hundreds and hundreds of changes to the text!the vast majority of those were grammer changes so people didin't have such a hard time with Hebrew grammer, and most of the others seem to me like easy mistakes that got into the Printer's manuscript.Not too hard to do if you're reading off a plagiarized manuscript.Rightttt, I thought his face was in a hat? kind of hard to read a manuscript without any light!Thus proving my point. Thank you!Point? I don't get what exactly your point is...Not a single shred of evidence can ever be found to verify anything in your book.Tell that to Hugh Nibley. You must include many historical anachronisms.You must duplicate many King James Version errors in your book.You must include many grammatical errors.You must display a complete lack of knowledge of the dialect in which you're writing. For example, if you try to duplicate the King James-style Elizabethan English, you must constantly mess up your "thee"s and "thou"s.Heh, I never understood the whole ""thee and thou" thing. The Prophets who wrote the plates didin't all have a degree from harvard! For by the weak and unlearned does God thrash the nations, but by people like who professing yourself wise have shown yourself a fool.The Book of Mormon is true, I know it is, I just how all of mankind can realise it's divinity and stop kicking against the pricks before its too late for them. Link to comment
raindancer Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 He must write a history of an ancient country (such as Tibet), covering a period from 600 BC to 421 AD. Put the history into a book with 102 chapters Link to comment
t2t2 Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 There are lots of authors who have written about the lost city of Atlantis as if it really happened (though none claim it other than fiction). None of them used the Bible as a guide...so they don't read like the BOM.As for the rest - critics are routinely shunted aside and "yawn"ed at when they use journals and other such to criticize Joseph Smith. And yet, when it comes to writing the BoM Mormons are more than willing to use the same to suppose Joseph was an illiterate farm boy who wrote a magnificent book, on his own, in 80 days.I ask - who's word are you relying on for this information? I see Mormons say "why don't you prove it" to critics all the time. Let's flip it around. Link to comment
Guest Zelph Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 From The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan. Kinda long, but shows how characters like Joseph Smith are not unusual, and do not need the guiding hand of God:Something about the alien abduction cases tugged at *my* memoryfor years. Link to comment
Tchild2 Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 No, I couldn't write a book like the Book of Mormon. -Sigh- pick me up at 9:00 sharp on Sunday for my rebaptism....that is if the church will have me back? Seriously, the Book of Mormon has persisted on because it adds dimension to the doctrines of the LDS church, and because it does contain a certain "something". Many people do not detect that spiritual "something", but obviously many persons have.Perhaps it is the central themes of christianity interwoven in the text that add interest and the spiritual flare. Redemption, forgiveness, love, salvation. What God fearing person doesn't love to read about those topics? It contains the highest teachings of the bible (IMO), namely "the sermon on the mount...the Beatitudes", addressed to the remaining (non wicked) Nephites, but essentially word for word as found in the bible.I don't know if anyone on these boards has ever really answered the question of why? Why did Joseph Smith attempt to sell the copyright of the BoM via Oliver Cowder and Hiram Page in Toronto, Canada? If the book was to be "the most correct book on earth", the cornerstone of the LDS religion, another testament of Jesus Christ, the stone to fill the whole earth....why oh why would you sell it away?The attempt to sell the book leads me to believe that the authors believed that money was more valuable than the book, and since they tried to sell the copyright after recieving a revelation to do so, then God also believes that money is more important than the book. Link to comment
Guest johnny_cat Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 The attempt to sell the book leads me to believe that the authors believed that money was more valuable than the book.It's just as reasonable to conclude the opposite. Publishing the book was more important than long-term profit. Just depends on one's point of view, I suppose. Link to comment
Tchild2 Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 It's just as reasonable to conclude the opposite. Publishing the book was more important than long-term profit. Just depends on one's point of view, I supposeThat is a valid point. IF the copyright had sold, who would own the book, the right to make revisions, changes, additions or subtractions? Could the church even give them for free like they do now, or would they be paying royalties to some Canadian publishing company?Could the changes "white and delightesome", have been changed to "pure and delightesome", unless the church owned the copyright? Big, big questions. Link to comment
pseudogratix Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Why did Joseph Smith attempt to sell the copyright of the BoM via Oliver Cowder and Hiram Page in Toronto, Canada? Did Joseph Smith Attempt to Sell the Book of Mormon Copyright? @ http://www.angelfire.com/sk2/ldsdefense/copyright.html Link to comment
MUEagle Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Well hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...Plagarism can be done by anyone, but above and beyond that if you take your logic TF that would also give the Quran a lot of weight as well as the book (the names escapes me..) that Mary Baker Eddy wrote which is used by Christian Scientists. What about the Watch Tower? MU Eagle Link to comment
Guest johnny_cat Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Plagarism can be done by anyone, but above and beyond that if you take your logic TF that would also give the Quran a lot of weight as well as the book (the names escapes me..) that Mary Baker Eddy wrote which is used by Christian Scientists.The problem here, MUEagle, is that the same accusations of plagiarism can be leveled against the Old and New Testaments. Do you have some special reason for accepting them as true? Link to comment
MUEagle Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Plagarism can be done by anyone, but above and beyond that if you take your logic TF that would also give the Quran a lot of weight as well as the book (the names escapes me..) that Mary Baker Eddy wrote which is used by Christian Scientists.The problem here, MUEagle, is that the same accusations of plagiarism can be leveled against the Old and New Testaments. Do you have some special reason for accepting them as true? Are you asking if I thinbk the Book of Mormon was plagarized from the Bible?or are you saying that the Bible was plagarized from other sources? Dave Link to comment
Guest Zelph Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 This thread reminded me that someone did a parody of the Book of Mormon challenge, so I googled it. Sure enough, a jokester named tanstaafl created this parody.A New and Improved Book of Mormon Challenge06/27/2003 - tanstaafl1. Write a history of ancient America covering a period of from 2200 B.C.E.to 400 A.D.? Why ancient America? Because that's what the Book of Mormonclaims to be about silly.2. You must start telling tales that resemble this book to your family atleast ten years before you write it.3. You must be primarily self-educated. If you are formally educated, it mayor may not make it more difficult to write, that will obviously depend onyour individual "education," but don't worry about learning how to spell,since . . .4. You must include at least 3000 grammatical and spelling errors, even ifyou use a secretary to transcribe your dictation. Now this is going to bereally hard, because where are you going to find such an ignorant secretary.Good luck on that one.5. Your "history" must be 531 pages long, and must use the phrase "and itcame to pass" 3,856 times.6. You must come up with a good explanation as to why filler such as "and itcame to pass" would be so frequently repeated if your history is supposed tohave come from gold plates where space was at a premium.7. Once your book is published you are only allowed to change it 3500 timesfor grammatical and spelling errors and 500 times for doctrinal, historicalor other substantive inconsistencies.8. Your "history" must replace the actual millions of inhabitants of theancient Americas during this time period with fictitious nations, includingone nation founded by refugees from the mythical tower of Babylon who cameto the Americas on a giant barrel-like barge with holes in the top and thebottom (don't ask) of the barge and two other nations founded by "jews" whoknow next to nothing about Jewish dietary or religious practices.9. You must describe the inhabitants of America and their religious,economic, political and social and cultural institutions in such way thatthey don't in any way represent the religious, political, social andcultural institutions of the actual inhabitants of ancient America. Evenmake up some names of coins that were never used by the actual inhabitantsof America. Throw in some animals and crops that are only in the Americaspost-Columbus and make up some funny names of non-existent animals too, likecureloms.10. Make sure you plagiarize from more than one section of the bible, andfrom various other sources, so that your claim that many ancient authorscontributed to the book can be trumpeted by apologists.11. Make up a story about a dead guy coming to America and killing millionsof inhabitants and burying cities in the ocean and under the earth. Call himNosferatu or Lestat. No just kidding -- you must actually call him Jesus.12. Claim that your inconsistent and grammatically awkward prose (except forthe plagiarized parts which are somewhat better written) is not fiction, buta true and sacred history.13. Include in your book 54 chapters dealing with wars that bear noresemblance to the actual wars that took place in the ancient Americas. Makesure that at least some of these wars include the nonsensical accounts ofmillion man armies. Ignore the problems associated with the logisticalsupport for such a large army. Also include million men armies fighting tothe last man and their bones and steel weapons disappearing from the face ofthe earth. Include 21 historical chapters which bear no resemblance toactual history, try and include some inconsistencies here too, like peoplereappearing in the narrative after they have already died.14. You must include 55 chapters on visions and prophesies. At least one ofthe "visions" must be an almost verbatim recital of a dream that some memberof your family, preferably your father, told to you as a boy. Some of theprophesies must be plagiarized directly from the bible, but others must"prophesy" about things that have already happened between the time of thesupposed prophesy and the present, so that you can show how accurate the"prophecies" of your book are. Except for the "prophecies" about events thathave already taken place, which must be laden with details, all propheciesshould be very vague. Never do anything stupid like prophesy that Christwill come in 1891, the civil war would start in the 1830's or that peoplelive on the moon and dress like Quakers, that would be quite a problem foryou.15. Included in your narrative will be bogus modes of travel that were neverused in ancient America, bogus descriptions of clothing and clothingmaterials that were never used in ancient America, bogus descriptions ofcrops that never existed in ancient America and bogus types of government aswell. As Spiccoli from "Fast Times At Ridgemenot High" might add at thispoint -- that's a lot of bogosity dude.16. You must invent 280 names. Well, not really invent, you can take somefrom the bible, some from the apocrypha, some from maps, etc. Some should beinside jokes (Moron, Ether), some should be silly (anti-nephi-lehite,curelom), some should so forgettable that you refer to them obliquely(brother of jared) and some should come from the occult practices you weretaught by your parents (Laman).17. Every objective scholar who looks at your work and examines its claimsto be a history of the ancient Americas must denounce it as a fraud. (OK,this one was easy, but you deserve a break after so many hard ones in arow.)18. Claim that your book is the word of God. Then start a religion withdoctrines contrary to the book. (Don't worry, this is actually much easierthan it sounds.)19. Throw in all kinds of absurd, impossible and contradictory statements.(If you need help with this see Ether 15:31, Mosiah 21:28 and 2 Nephi 19:1for some examples to get you started.)20. No one but you or the members of the religion you founded must believeyour claims that the book is of divine origin. To cover for the fact thatyou cannot produce the gold plates, make up a story about the gold platesupon which the record came being "taken up into heaven" and get 11 peoplewho are related to you and/or with a financial interest in your book to saythat they saw the plates before they disapperared. Make sure that you referto the dead guy that takes the plates back "to heaven" by at least twodifferent names.21. Get four dishonest and shifty characters to claim that they too had anmagical dead guy come down from "heaven" to "testify" to them about yourbook. Each of these witnesses must have a financial stake in the book.22. Make sure that something in your book fulfills some vague biblicalprophesy. (And yes, I know vague and biblical prophesy are redundant andrepetitive.)23. Thousands of men with a vested financial interest in the religion youfounded, including many who are criminals and who lie under oath tocongress, must accept your book (and your teachings that contradict thebook) for over 100 years. In fact, you must make sure that every man wholeads your church for the first 100 years must be a criminal. Make sure thatyou commit every one of the following crimes: treason, sedition, murder,perjury, conspiracy to commit murder, bigamy, statutory rape, fraud,conterfeiting, illegal banking, assault, and bribery. Send some of yourfollowers on missions and have sex with their wives while they are away too.Make sure that every man that leads your church for the next 100 yearscommits at least 3 of the above crimes.24. Since your book is filled with inconsistencies which easily demonstrateit as fraudulent, you must include an appeal to magical thinking at the endof the book, or no one will follow you.25. You've got to then get a bunch of believers in your fraudulent historyto, a few of them glady, but most of them under some form of coercion, giveup two years of their life to con others into beleiving your bogus history.Have sex with some of their wives while they are away. Call this sex"celestial marriage."26. Some of these salesmen must even pay their own way. Now some of themwill, over the course of these two years, come to the realization that yourbook is a fraud, but over half of them must stay in your church.27. You must derive your financial riches from the book and the religionwhich you found upon its teachings (and no we must not forget about thedoctrines that contradict the teachings of the book). Despite making severalfortunes over the course of your life by conning the believers of your bookout of their hard earned money, you will waste it all and flee at least twostates due to your financial improprieties and declare bankruptcy at leastonce. And along the same financial vein, you must also steal money from yourfoster daughters. And while you're at it, have sex with some of them too.28. When your financial cons and sexual scandals cause problems for yourfamily and followers, you must blame everything on religious persecution andleave town. You must ingraine this into your followers so that they carrythis false persecution complex with them unto the third and the fourthgenerations. You must teach all the leaders of your movement to have sexwith the wives and the daughters of those with lower callings in yourchurch. You must have sex with 14 year old girls and cause that any followerof yours that does not want to have sex with 14 year old girls to be removedfrom any leadership position in your church. (Yes David Koresh did this too,but he never wrote a book and he's not about to write one now is he?)29. Your book must result in a people whose unlawful practices will bereferred to as barbaric by both the Congress and the Supreme Court of theUnited States of America.. (If you live somewhere other than the US, similarorganizations of the country where you live will suffice) You must includein your religion covenants that require your people to blindly obey ordersto murder non-members of your cult. Your book must result in a people thatwill kill and steal from any who dare visit territory controlled by yourfollowers. Your people must murder at least 20 children in cold blood.30. Start right now, and spend a year writing the first draft of this book.Then complete the second draft in three months, BUT YOUR SECOND DRAFT MUSTBE WRITTEN WITHOUT REFERENCE TO THE FIRST DRAFT. Before starting on thesecond draft, you must let the only copy of the first draft go to someonewho does not believe you saw god, or that you saw any dead guys, or thatdead guys gave you any gold plates. Then come up with a good explanation asto why, since the plates were supposedly translated by the power of god, goddidn't just help you write the same words over again.31. Then have someone who is in the pay of the religion you founded for over50 years write an nonsensical challenge filled with invalid and dishonestassumptions and flawed reasoning. Then have someone born more than onehundred years after you die waste almost two hours writing a stupid parodyof that challenge. Link to comment
Guest johnny_cat Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Are you asking if I thinbk the Book of Mormon was plagarized from the Bible?The answer to that question seems rather obvious.or are you saying that the Bible was plagarized from other sources? I'm not saying that. Others, however, have made a case that what we have now as the Bible has its origins in pre- and post-Hebraic mythology. For example, the P version of the creation (Gen. 1:-2:3) seems to date from after the Babylonian exile and reflects to some a Babylonian influence. Link to comment
MUEagle Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 I'm not following you Dave Link to comment
cinepro Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 ....<snip>31. Then have someone who is in the pay of the religion you founded for over50 years write an nonsensical challenge filled with invalid and dishonestassumptions and flawed reasoning. Then have someone born more than onehundred years after you die waste almost two hours writing a stupid parodyof that challenge.While I don't agree with everything in that list, it is still hilarious.Much shorter, but nevertheless humorous, is the "Book of Abraham Challenge", as posted by SoHo over on ZLMB:To all those who think that Joseph Smith was a fraud, I issue the following challenge:1. Obtain an ancient text of uncertain date and written in a currently indecipherable language.2. Claim that the text contains the writings of one or more ancient prophets. Keep in mind that when the text is eventually dated, the ancient prophets you have chosen must be shown to have been deceased for hundreds of years before the text was written.3. Claim that you can translate the currently indecipherable language - including the interpretations of various characters and a construction of grammar. Keep in mind that your interpretations must stand forever as having nothing to do with the source text - any degree of accuracy to any future scholarly translation and you will fail.4. Translate the text in KJV-style English - the text to be some 10-15 pages. Again, your interpretations must stand forever as having nothing to do with the source text.5. You must publish your translation within 7 years from the time you begin. Link to comment
mormon fool Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Much shorter, but nevertheless humorous, is the "Book of Abraham Challenge", as posted by SoHo over on ZLMB: Was this before or after SoHo became a switch hitter? Link to comment
alienward Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 You're misunderstanding, Mr. Curious. Having sentences immediately read back to assure that the dictation had been transcribed correctly is distinct from having a previous sentence or paragraph re-read, after an absence, so as to get the creative juices flowing again. Witnesses testify to the former, but at least one expressly denies the latter.I'm interested in this manuscript of which the obviously not-as-skeptical-as-he-claims-to-be Mr. Shades speaks. Can he identify it specifically? Does he perhaps have a copy of it that the rest of us can examine?Are you thinking that there's no accounts of Smith sneaking notes in and out of his hat, there Link to comment
MUEagle Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 ....<snip>31. Then have someone who is in the pay of the religion you founded for over50 years write an nonsensical challenge filled with invalid and dishonestassumptions and flawed reasoning. Then have someone born more than onehundred years after you die waste almost two hours writing a stupid parodyof that challenge.While I don't agree with everything in that list, it is still hilarious.Much shorter, but nevertheless humorous, is the "Book of Abraham Challenge", as posted by SoHo over on ZLMB:To all those who think that Joseph Smith was a fraud, I issue the following challenge:1. Obtain an ancient text of uncertain date and written in a currently indecipherable language.2. Claim that the text contains the writings of one or more ancient prophets. Keep in mind that when the text is eventually dated, the ancient prophets you have chosen must be shown to have been deceased for hundreds of years before the text was written.3. Claim that you can translate the currently indecipherable language - including the interpretations of various characters and a construction of grammar. Keep in mind that your interpretations must stand forever as having nothing to do with the source text - any degree of accuracy to any future scholarly translation and you will fail.4. Translate the text in KJV-style English - the text to be some 10-15 pages. Again, your interpretations must stand forever as having nothing to do with the source text.5. You must publish your translation within 7 years from the time you begin. CineproYour tempting me! MU Eagle Link to comment
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