Article On Reincarnation And Mormonism

[stYro]

I came across a paper entitled "Eternal Lives" by Joseph J. Dewey, in which he puts forth some interesting evidences and arguments for reincarnation, drawing on the Bible as well as LDS sources. It is the most complete treatment of the concept I have come across. Whether you end up agreeing with him or not, you will come away knowing a lot more about the subject, and you will be better able to defend your position because you will know what the other side's arguments are.

Here's the link:

http://www.freeread.com/archives/2286

[Libs]

That was very interesting. I've always been curious about the possibility of reincarnation. I think it is very possible.

I was wondering, though, what the idea of reincarnation in Mormonism would do to the concept of eternal marriage? Would partners, once married in the Temple, just keep coming back together, until their final incarnation?

[stYro]

That was very interesting. I've always been curious about the possibility of reincarnation. I think it is very possible.

I was wondering, though, what the idea of reincarnation in Mormonism would do to the concept of eternal marriage? Would partners, once married in the Temple, just keep coming back together, until their final incarnation?

I think that free agency would be in full effect, leading to the possibility of being sealed to more than one partner in different lifetimes, whether you are male or female. How that would work out in the long run, I do not know. But the dilemma of being sealed to more than one partner can arise from a single lifetime as well, so it would be nothing new. If one sealing is "ratified" by the Holy Spirit of Promise, and the others aren't, then my guess is that would be the one that would stick.

My hope and expectation is that such things will work out to the greatest good of all, and nobody gets a raw deal, because I believe that a caring and capable God would have created a world that, once it reaches its full potential, leaves nobody out.

Edited July 6, 2011 by stYro

[Flyonthewall]

I look upon the concept of reincarnation as a "telephoned" version of the plan of salvation.

While I do not have a standing on whether or not a spirit can progress from a fly to a frog to a dog etc..., humans do not...that is clear from scripture and teachings from the prophets.

[Deborah]

But despite some similarities to LDS doctrine, reincarnation is contrary to revealed truth. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that reincarnation is a false doctrine. It may well be a corruption or counterfeit of the plan of salvation. In any event, the doctrine of reincarnation does not agree with Latter-day Saint teachings about the purpose of life and, more important, the unique and essential mission of Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world. For Latter-day Saints, the problems with the idea of reincarnation are as follows:

from Reincarnation

I believe any memories from past lives people have are a result of being close to that person spiritually at the time they were in mortality. From my own view if I had to come back here and do it all again I would consider myself in h***.

[coolrok7]

What do you do with the following as resurrection and reincarnation are not compatible? Reincarnation is a Hindu/Buddhist (Buddhism came out of Hinduism) false teaching:

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:24-28)

[cdowis]

As I remember, Eliza Snow thought that JS accepted the concept. Something about his being relieved that he had been faithful in both his lives. (don't have the source off-hand, but she was quoted on some polygamous cult site -- the Manti group, I think)

Edited July 6, 2011 by cdowis

[stYro]

I believe any memories from past lives people have are a result of being close to that person spiritually at the time they were in mortality. From my own view if I had to come back here and do it all again I would consider myself in h***.

If you had read the article, you would see how right you are! There are two kinds of resurrections, the "resurrection of eternal life" and the "resurrection of damnation". The latter is a mistranslation; the Greek word is "krisis", and it means much the same thing as its English equivalent. In my opinion the Chinese have the best definition of crisis, a combination of the words for "danger" and "opportunity". If you want to know what kind of life deserves the "resurrection of eternal life", it would be the kind of life Jesus lived. The rest of us fall short, and we get the "resurrection of danger and opportunity" - a return to mortality. And indeed it is a h***, for this world is a telestial world.

Deborah, at least take a look at the article. It's not going to bite you, and you may find some truth in it. If nothing else, you'll see your assessment that reincarnation = h*** is right on the money!

Edited July 6, 2011 by stYro

[mfbukowski]

I came across a paper entitled "Eternal Lives" by Joseph J. Dewey, in which he puts forth some interesting evidences and arguments for reincarnation, drawing on the Bible as well as LDS sources. It is the most complete treatment of the concept I have come across. Whether you end up agreeing with him or not, you will come away knowing a lot more about the subject, and you will be better able to defend your position because you will know what the other side's arguments are.

Here's the link:

http://www.freeread.com/archives/2286

I liked the immortal heaps of bacteria the best.

[ERayR]

from Reincarnation

I believe any memories from past lives people have are a result of being close to that person spiritually at the time they were in mortality. From my own view if I had to come back here and do it all again I would consider myself in h***.

Because of some things I have recently come accross I am considering that memories are stored in our DNA and past lives memories may only be some past ancestors stored memories.

[ERayR]

If you had read the article, you would see how right you are! There are two kinds of resurrections, the "resurrection of eternal life" and the "resurrection of damnation". The latter is a mistranslation; the Greek word is "krisis", and it means much the same thing as its English equivalent. In my opinion the Chinese have the best definition of crisis, a combination of the words for "danger" and "opportunity". If you want to know what kind of life deserves the "resurrection of eternal life", it would be the kind of life Jesus lived. The rest of us fall short, and we get the "resurrection of danger and opportunity" - a return to mortality. And indeed it is a h***, for this world is a telestial world.

Deborah, at least take a look at the article. It's not going to bite you, and you may find some truth in it. If nothing else, you'll see your assessment that reincarnation = h*** is right on the money!

The rest of us fall short, and we get the "resurrection of danger and opportunity" - a return to mortality. And indeed it is a h***, for this world is a telestial world.

This negates the atonement as in my opinion does the whole concept of reincarnation.

[altersteve]

That was very interesting. I've always been curious about the possibility of reincarnation. I think it is very possible.

How's that? I've always thought reincarnation was completely incompatible with the gospel. I'm interested to hear your opinion.

Plus, I don't like the idea myself. I don't really want to die and come back as a slug or anything... I'd rather become like God.

Edited July 6, 2011 by altersteve

[stYro]

What do you do with the following as resurrection and reincarnation are not compatible? Reincarnation is a Hindu/Buddhist (Buddhism came out of Hinduism) false teaching:

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:24-28)"

For many years, the author of the article relied on the verse you bolded there as irrefutable proof that reincarnation was false. After encountering other evidences of reincarnation he re-examined it, and found that the part you bolded has a critical mistranslation in it.

Here's a link to the page with his analysis of Hebrews 9:27; begin near the bottom of the left-hand column, seven short paragraphs up from the bottom:

http://www.freeread.com/archives/2303

[stYro]

The rest of us fall short, and we get the "resurrection of danger and opportunity" - a return to mortality. And indeed it is a h***, for this world is a telestial world.

This negates the atonement as in my opinion does the whole concept of reincarnation.

Think of it like going to college. The atonement means that we aren't condemned and expelled for not passing our classes; we can take them again if we need to and (because of the atonement) our failures aren't held against us, but we still have to eventually pass the courses and deserve that diploma at the end. Jesus doesn't take our calculus final for us. So when we do graduate, it's not just an honorary degree; it's a real one.

Edited July 6, 2011 by stYro

[Libs]

How's that? I've always thought reincarnation was completely incompatible with the gospel. I'm interested to hear your opinion.

Plus, I don't like the idea myself. I don't really want to die and come back as a slug or anything... I'd rather become like God.

Did you read the article?

If you put the idea of eternal progression with reincarnation, hopefully, you would not come back as a slug. lol

I like it, because I just feel that one lifetime is not nearly long enough to learn all of the things we need to learn....most especially, if you want to become like God.

I am 65 years old and not even close!

Edited July 6, 2011 by Libs

[ERayR]

Think of it like going to college. The atonement means that we aren't condemned and expelled for not passing our classes; we can take them again if we need to and our failures aren't held against us, but we still have to eventually pass the courses and deserve that diploma at the end. It's not an honorary degree, it's a real one.

A more apt analogy for reincarnation is that you are sent back to kindergarden to begin again.

[BCSpace]

I came across a paper entitled "Eternal Lives" by Joseph J. Dewey, in which he puts forth some interesting evidences and arguments for reincarnation, drawing on the Bible as well as LDS sources. It is the most complete treatment of the concept I have come across. Whether you end up agreeing with him or not, you will come away knowing a lot more about the subject, and you will be better able to defend your position because you will know what the other side's arguments are.

Here's the link:

http://www.freeread.com/archives/2286

Just looking at the first chapter, I would have to posit that there really is no evidence whatsoever from LDS scripture or doctrine for reincarnation. I found the Hebrews "better resurrection" argument to be especially egregious. However, I don't disccount the possibiliy of reincarnation as it could be a satisfactory explaination for the existence of all types of spirits, some of which are no longer extant on this world, and the fact that they are organized intelligence.

[mfbukowski]

I have a problem with seeing the compatibility with eternal marriage.

We are here to become "one flesh" with our spouses- and for me this has a lot to do with kind of a ying yang unity of opposites- self and the other as one- kind of thing.

That has to do with Christ and his church becoming one also- as we become one with our spouses. Divine and mortal, the natural man and divine man- all of that.

I don't see that as being compatible with reincarnation at all.

Forget all my mumbo-jumbo- how this fits with an "eternal family" as the individuals we are now- really doesn't make sense to me.

If we are individuals in the eternities, one would think we would retain our individual families. On the other hand, if we are "one big happy family" I see that as a kind of a communal soul kind of belief- incompatible with individual identities.

Maybe I am wrong but that's the way I am seeing it at the moment.

[mfbukowski]

Just looking at the first chapter, I would have to posit that there really is no evidence whatsoever from LDS scripture or doctrine for reincarnation. I found the Hebrews "better resurrection" argument to be especially egregious. However, I don't disccount the possibiliy of reincarnation as it could be a satisfactory explaination for the existence of all types of spirits, some of which are no longer extant on this world, and the fact that they are organized intelligence.

I can see it as compatible with a kind of progression for lower intelligences- with the idea that when they reach a certain point in their progression they become individual spirit children- and become beyond the need for reincarnation.

Maybe that is in the book- not sure- not likely I will read beyond the first chapter

[stYro]

A more apt analogy for reincarnation is that you are sent back to kindergarden to begin again.

As far as the physical body and memory goes, yes. As far as innate characteristics and aptitutes go, those may have been developed in and carried forward from previous lifetimes.

I'll admit that my analogy isn't perfect, but my main point was that the concept of reincarnation does not necessarily negate the atonement.

[stYro]

We are here to become "one flesh" with our spouses- and for me this has a lot to do with kind of a ying yang unity of opposites- self and the other as one- kind of thing.

That has to do with Christ and his church becoming one also- as we become one with our spouses. Divine and mortal, the natural man and divine man- all of that.

I don't see that as being compatible with reincarnation at all.

Ah, you need to skp ahead to chapter seven of the article. The principle of union of the male and female is indeed compatible with reincarnation. Here's a link:

http://www.freeread.com/archives/2314; chapter 9 might be of interest as well.

[mfbukowski]

Ah, you need to skp ahead to chapter seven of the article. The principle of union of the male and female is indeed compatible with reincarnation. Here's a link:

http://www.freeread.com/archives/2314; chapter 9 might be of interest as well.

OK but I think I must have anticipated that answer, because that was basically my understanding from chap 1.

Still seems to me that I will also get to be sealed to all my wife's (wives) previous husband(s) "and friends"

No thanks on that part. Sure the theory is that we will be sealed to find each other in future lives- but it just feels kinda yucky to me somehow.

I actually am convinced that I somehow knew my wife before we came here, and that could be evidence that this is a true principle, but I prefer the "Saturday's Warrior" interpretation instead.

Here's another thing- as one grows older, one really does mature, and you get to watch your kids and grandkids making all the same stupid mistakes you did while you were growing up. It is like being able to see the future- you get to where you absolutely KNOW that if "he does this" or "marries that one" then "THAT" is going to happen- and sure enough it does!

Why would I want to go back and live through all those same mistakes I made before? Yes, if I could actually remember my previous mistakes, it would be incredible, but if we don't even remember that we have been around a few times before, clearly we won't know that.

It just kinda feels like it would be like being a rat on a wheel- spinning time after time and really progressing very little because all the progression is lost in forgetfulness or the "veil".

I can see some advantages to the theory, but so far I see a lot more downside.

[Libs]

Why would I want to go back and live through all those same mistakes I made before?

The whole idea of reincarnation is not to keep reliving the same mistakes, once you recognize them as mistakes, but to "progress" to the next level and learn new things...perhaps, things you were not ready for, in this lifetime, because you were busy learning something at a lower level that would help you understand the next step in your progression.

Makes perfect sense, to me. We may even be learning in groups (kind of like in elementary school, where whole classes graduate to the next grade, each year).

[stYro]

Still seems to me that I will also get to be sealed to all my wife's (wives) previous husband(s) "and friends"

No thanks on that part.

Well I didn't come away with that impression, but perhaps I'm mistaken about what the article implies. I would, however, like to thank you for taking the time to look at it.

stYro

[stYro]

The whole idea of reincarnation is not to keep reliving the same mistakes, once you recognize them as mistakes, but to "progress" to the next level...

The movie "Groundhog Day" comes to mind, except that we don't wake up with an actual recollection; rather, we have to listen to what our soul is telling us to do in this lifetime. And it may be that your soul tells you to work on "X", and mine tells me to work on "Y", and we could even end up on opposite sides of an issue... but it's all part of the same grand cirriculum.

stYro

Edited July 7, 2011 by stYro