What Type Of Evidence Would Cause An Orthodox Christian To Denounce Jesus Christ

[jmordecai]

Of course I don't think that. I am LDS. I have said that repeatedly

The point is how do YOU choose?

They can't all be right. (According to you)

You have provided no evidence of why you are right and most other Christians wrong.

This thread is about what evidences would cause a Christian to denounce Jesus. If you want to talk about doctrinal differences, I'd be happy to discuss that with you in another forum.

http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/mysticism/world_religions_populations.html

Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate by the chart. I total 33.32% under 'Christian'. I notice they didn't break down the various Muslim and Hindu sects.

[jmordecai]

Does anyone really dispute that Jesus was a real person? When Jesus asks his followers to "believe" does he mean "believe that I am a real person?"

Our friend mfbukowski says the best explanation of the Bible is that is all legend and myth. Anyhow, if you accept the notion that the evidence supports that Jesus is a person, then to me if Jesus is true, he's true both in spiritual matters and tangible physical matters.

That seems like a kind of mechanical faith to me if it's just a matter of data analysis and that is all. I know Mormons are often accused of following a blind faith. And I don't mind admitting there is some truth in that. I guess a lot of orthodox Christians follow a mechanical type faith.

Interesting.

It's not only mechanical. The 'mechanical' gives us tangible on which to apply our faith, so we have some certainty that we aren't believing in fairy tales.

[jmordecai]

Really? Then show me the tomb. Then show me the nails. Then show me the cross. Then show me His foot steps. Then show me His crown of thorns. Show me His cloak. Show me the spear. Show me the blood on the ground. Can you place one piece of evidence in your hand?

Do you require the same direct evidence for Socrates and Plato?

We are a spirit. I know I am a spirit. I have no idea what you think you are. You are all over the map in your responses.

You didn't answer my question. You asserted that this is a 'heart' and not a 'mind' thing. I asked you to define what you meant by 'heart', and you answered that 'we are a spirit'. Again, please explain to me what you mean by 'heart'. I acknowledge I am a spirit. What association if any does that have to do with my mind? I want to move from conceptual (heart, mind, spirit) to application: how does this work?

Maybe you should take a Bible class.

You're one insult away from being ignored.

John 20:29

King James Version (KJV)

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Seems like a contrast to me. Please tell me how this is not a contrast between faith and evidence. But no matter how strong your argument is I will stay with Christ because my spirit tells me to. Not my head. It seems you read scripture with predetermined ideas and you refuse to let the Words in scripture interfere with those ideas. You might want to rethink that way of reading scripture.

It's not a contrast in the sense that one is superior over the other. Again, Christ provided Thomas the proof. As I stated before, that was necessary as the apostles are the personal witnesses of Jesus resurrection. You can't have personal witnesses without being... witnesses. Christ here does not in any manner diminish the necessity for evidence, but rather acknowledges that not all will be privy to seeing Him resurrected first hand.

Oh, and please point out in scripture where it talks about the tree of evidence I want to read all about it.

Romans 1:20, Job 12:7-9

This is so wrong. You really are mixed up. We are so far apart that I am not sure I can even help you.

You have to explain yourself. 'Nuh uh' and insulting me is not an answer. Please explain the fallacy of my statement:

This is a false dichotomy. Again you're pitting faith against evidence as though they are mutually exclusive. Faith is what you do with the evidence. If there is no evidence, then we have nothing to put our faith on.

[jmordecai]

I'm not sure "denounce" is the right word, but my loss of faith in Christ and the Bible was the culmination of many discoveries, including my realization that much of the Bible is pseudepigraphal, the morality taught in the Bible is mediocre at best, the doctrine of the atonement is nonsensical, and Jesus's time-sensitive prophecy of the end of the world never came true. It was also the result of a new pessimism about the reliability of "spiritual" ways of knowing, as I studied spiritual experiences across many religions and cultures and found them to be totally unreliable and basically just reflections of the worldview of the time and place in which they occurred.

Chris, would you mind elaborating on why the atonement is "nonsensical"? You can PM me if you don't want to muddy this thread.

Thx

[Chris Smith]

Chris, would you mind elaborating on why the atonement is "nonsensical"? You can PM me if you don't want to muddy this thread.

I recently discussed this very question with Bill Hamblin on another thread.

[jo1952]

Again, Christ provided Thomas the proof. As I stated before, that was necessary as the apostles are the personal witnesses of Jesus resurrection. You can't have personal witnesses without being... witnesses. Christ here does not in any manner diminish the necessity for evidence, but rather acknowledges that not all will be privy to seeing Him resurrected first hand.

Jesus had already taught the Apostles who He was before His crucifixion. He had also explained to them that He would overcome death. The faith the Apostles had in Jesus' word was enough for some of them to believe what He had said about overcoming death - even though they may not have fully understood what this would "look" like. I think that Jesus purposely used Thomas' doubting nature as a teaching tool for the rest of the world. Therefore, Jesus could have purposely chosen times to appear before the various Apostles whenever Thomas was not there in order to set the stage for this particular teaching moment. So, when all of the Apostles were gathered together, along with Thomas (who had already made the claim that he would not believe unless he could personally see and touch the Risen Lord), Jesus appeared to them and allowed Thomas to see Him and touch the wounds in His body. Thomas' faith was not sufficient for him to believe that Christ was risen. He needed the proof of personally seeing and touching Him in order to be able to believe that Jesus had indeed risen.

Yet it is required of all mankind who have never met Jesus in the flesh to believe and have faith in Him in order to be saved. And blessed are those who do believe in Him who have never seen or touched Him.

I think it is fair to recognize that Thomas is a type which has been provided in the Bible. The Bible is filled with types. I would offer that Thomas is a type for the Jews in the end times who will finally get to meet Christ when He returns. They too will get to see Jesus in person, see that He has risen from the dead because they will also be able to see His wounds and their blindness will be removed. They will see Christ for who He is.

This is a false dichotomy. Again you're pitting faith against evidence as though they are mutually exclusive. Faith is what you do with the evidence. If there is no evidence, then we have nothing to put our faith on.

What we have in writing from the Apostles are their testimonies that they knew Jesus before and after His crucifixion and resurrection. The purpose of their testimonies is to spread the Gospel news that Christ the innocent Lord was crucified for the sins of the world; that Jesus overcame physical death and that He lives and sits at the right hand of our Father in Heaven, waiting to return again when Father tells Him it is time to do so. Their testimonies are about what they personally witnessed; but they are only words. The power of their words is to entice others to hope and desire that what their words say are the truth. But their words do not have the power to witness the truth of their words to our spirits if we decide to not believe their words. However, if we have hope and desire to believe that Jesus can save us from our sins, that is when their testimonies provide the incentive for us to believe and to exercise faith in Jesus. And THAT is when the Holy Ghost witnesses to our spirit that Jesus is the Christ.

If we decide NOT to believe another person's witness, then we will not exercise faith in Jesus. Therefore the mere "hearing" of someone else's witness does not equate to having the Holy Ghost give witness to our spirit. This should be clear through Jesus' teaching that those who got to see and hear Jesus speak and teach could blaspheme His words and the teachings of His Father. His words, the miracles He performed, etc., did not have the power to convince a man of who He was. Therefore, blasphemy against His words or Father's words could not condemn a person.

Since it is the Holy Ghost who is THE witness on earth sent from Heaven to provide the spiritual "proof" required to "know" that Jesus is the Christ, it is the witness of the Holy Ghost we receive once we believe in Jesus and take that leap of faith. The witness of the Holy Ghost comes AFTER we take our leap of faith. Hearing someone's testimony is an act of listening to words. But until a person takes a leap of faith, the Holy Ghost will not witness the Truth to his/her spirit whereby they can "know" spiritually the Truth that Jesus is the Christ. And so it is that AFTER a person has received the witness of Truth from the Holy Ghost that this is when they are in danger of committing the unpardonable sin (though even this sin is much more complicated).

It is not even necessary for people to have a Bible, or to have the testimonies which are written in the Bible read to them in order for them to believe or take that leap of faith. They just need someone who will teach them the Gospel message who then shares their own personal testimony. If those shared testimonies entice and cause another person to believe in Christ and take that leap of faith, it is still the Holy Ghost who will personally witness to their spirit that Jesus is the Christ. The Holy Ghost does not witness to us until AFTER we take our own personal leap of faith.

It is a sad and sore falacy for any Christian to believe that just because a person has heard the gospel message, who decides not to believe that message, that the person has rejected the Holy Ghost. Rather, all he has done is reject the message. A person needs to believe and take a leap of faith before they can receive the witness of the Holy Ghost. However, we should never give up on anyone. Continuing to teach the gospel message plants seeds; we can never know when a seed that has been planted will finally take root, cause the desire to believe to grow until a person will exercise faith in Jesus Christ. At that precious moment, the Holy Ghost will witness the Truth to that person.

Regards,

jo

[jmordecai]

Jesus had already taught the Apostles who He was before His crucifixion. He had also explained to them that He would overcome death. The faith the Apostles had in Jesus' word was enough for some of them to believe what He had said about overcoming death - even though they may not have fully understood what this would "look" like. I think that Jesus purposely used Thomas' doubting nature as a teaching tool for the rest of the world. Therefore, Jesus could have purposely chosen times to appear before the various Apostles whenever Thomas was not there in order to set the stage for this particular teaching moment. So, when all of the Apostles were gathered together, along with Thomas (who had already made the claim that he would not believe unless he could personally see and touch the Risen Lord), Jesus appeared to them and allowed Thomas to see Him and touch the wounds in His body. Thomas' faith was not sufficient for him to believe that Christ was risen. He needed the proof of personally seeing and touching Him in order to be able to believe that Jesus had indeed risen.

Yet it is required of all mankind who have never met Jesus in the flesh to believe and have faith in Him in order to be saved. And blessed are those who do believe in Him who have never seen or touched Him.

I think it is fair to recognize that Thomas is a type which has been provided in the Bible. The Bible is filled with types. I would offer that Thomas is a type for the Jews in the end times who will finally get to meet Christ when He returns. They too will get to see Jesus in person, see that He has risen from the dead because they will also be able to see His wounds and their blindness will be removed. They will see Christ for who He is.

What we have in writing from the Apostles are their testimonies that they knew Jesus before and after His crucifixion and resurrection. The purpose of their testimonies is to spread the Gospel news that Christ the innocent Lord was crucified for the sins of the world; that Jesus overcame physical death and that He lives and sits at the right hand of our Father in Heaven, waiting to return again when Father tells Him it is time to do so. Their testimonies are about what they personally witnessed; but they are only words. The power of their words is to entice others to hope and desire that what their words say are the truth. But their words do not have the power to witness the truth of their words to our spirits if we decide to not believe their words. However, if we have hope and desire to believe that Jesus can save us from our sins, that is when their testimonies provide the incentive for us to believe and to exercise faith in Jesus. And THAT is when the Holy Ghost witnesses to our spirit that Jesus is the Christ.

If we decide NOT to believe another person's witness, then we will not exercise faith in Jesus. Therefore the mere "hearing" of someone else's witness does not equate to having the Holy Ghost give witness to our spirit. This should be clear through Jesus' teaching that those who got to see and hear Jesus speak and teach could blaspheme His words and the teachings of His Father. His words, the miracles He performed, etc., did not have the power to convince a man of who He was. Therefore, blasphemy against His words or Father's words could not condemn a person.

Since it is the Holy Ghost who is THE witness on earth sent from Heaven to provide the spiritual "proof" required to "know" that Jesus is the Christ, it is the witness of the Holy Ghost we receive once we believe in Jesus and take that leap of faith. The witness of the Holy Ghost comes AFTER we take our leap of faith. Hearing someone's testimony is an act of listening to words. But until a person takes a leap of faith, the Holy Ghost will not witness the Truth to his/her spirit whereby they can "know" spiritually the Truth that Jesus is the Christ. And so it is that AFTER a person has received the witness of Truth from the Holy Ghost that this is when they are in danger of committing the unpardonable sin (though even this sin is much more complicated).

It is not even necessary for people to have a Bible, or to have the testimonies which are written in the Bible read to them in order for them to believe or take that leap of faith. They just need someone who will teach them the Gospel message who then shares their own personal testimony. If those shared testimonies entice and cause another person to believe in Christ and take that leap of faith, it is still the Holy Ghost who will personally witness to their spirit that Jesus is the Christ. The Holy Ghost does not witness to us until AFTER we take our own personal leap of faith.

It is a sad and sore falacy for any Christian to believe that just because a person has heard the gospel message, who decides not to believe that message, that the person has rejected the Holy Ghost. Rather, all he has done is reject the message. A person needs to believe and take a leap of faith before they can receive the witness of the Holy Ghost. However, we should never give up on anyone. Continuing to teach the gospel message plants seeds; we can never know when a seed that has been planted will finally take root, cause the desire to believe to grow until a person will exercise faith in Jesus Christ. At that precious moment, the Holy Ghost will witness the Truth to that person.

Regards,

jo

Jo, very well said. I agree with the gist of your post. One nuance though, the only reason one would ever accept the Gospel is to first recognize that they are a sinner. Based on John 16:8, that itself is the work of the Holy Spirit on the front end of a faith decision. Certainly the indwelling of the Spirit takes place after that. Jesus used the words "with", "upon" and "in" to describe the various degrees of the work of the Spirit in our lives.

[mfbukowski]

This thread is about what evidences would cause a Christian to denounce Jesus. If you want to talk about doctrinal differences, I'd be happy to discuss that with you in another forum.

Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate by the chart. I total 33.32% under 'Christian'. I notice they didn't break down the various Muslim and Hindu sects.

LOL

Ok- this was the original post you made, to which I replied with the chart:

I don't live with these ambiguities, I resolve them.

1 Tim. 4:16

Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Your approach suggests that since there is a variety of opinions, truth is impossible to find. It's as if you plan to go "right" and as soon as somebody else says "go left" we are stuck and can't arbitrate which way to go.

My point is that you were implying that your doctrine was "true" Christian doctrine when in fact, Protestants are a minority portion of Christians in the first place, and though it is hard to tell from the chart,, Evangelicals are even a smaller subset of Protestants.

It was you who brought up "correct doctrine".

Start all the threads you like- you are still avoiding the question of what evidence you have that the Bible is true- and yes, this thread is precisely about evidence for Christianity.

[jmordecai]

LOL

Ok- this was the original post you made, to which I replied with the chart:

My point is that you were implying that your doctrine was "true" Christian doctrine when in fact, Protestants are a minority portion of Christians in the first place, and though it is hard to tell from the chart,, Evangelicals are even a smaller subset of Protestants.

It was you who brought up "correct doctrine".

Start all the threads you like- you are still avoiding the question of what evidence you have that the Bible is true- and yes, this thread is precisely about evidence for Christianity.

Now you are changing the topic again. The OP is 'what evidence would cause a Christian to denounce Jesus Christ'. Now you want me to provide all the evidences for Jesus Christ. I see no point in that with you, since you acknowledge Jesus Christ is a real person, correct?

[jo1952]

Jo, very well said. I agree with the gist of your post. One nuance though, the only reason one would ever accept the Gospel is to first recognize that they are a sinner. Based on John 16:8, that itself is the work of the Holy Spirit on the front end of a faith decision. Certainly the indwelling of the Spirit takes place after that. Jesus used the words "with", "upon" and "in" to describe the various degrees of the work of the Spirit in our lives.

The Holy Ghost has been around since the foundation of the world. We know this because He is the witness who was sent to the earth to make Christ known to us. We also see where He would manifest Himself in various OT and NT passages before He was also called the Gift of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost after Christ's Ascension. Now, the Jews always knew what sin was. They were God's chosen people and are the ones who received the Law of Moses. So, in already knowing what sin was, how then, did they not know that Jesus was the Savior they had been expecting? To be more specific, since they recognized they were sinners, why didn't the Holy Ghost witness to them who Jesus was? What was the difference between the majority of Jews who failed to recognize Christ, and the few Jews who did recognize Him?

Regards,

jo

[coolrok7]

(HeatherAnn) Great question about how any of this "historical" info helps us spiritually? . . .

Personally, I LOVE the teachings of Jesus, but I believe they've been twisted. I don't think he wanted us to worship human sacrifice, nor to use him as a scapegoat.

I think he tried to tell us in many ways, that "the kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17 . . .

They’ve actually been twisted by those who are enemies of God either knowingly or unknowingly (by those who have been deceived):

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (2 Peter 3:14-16)

I was last year in Athens, Greece. Also on the island of Patmos off the west coast of Turkey where John’s Book of Revelation vision took place in a cave there (we were in the cave), and in western Turkey visiting the areas of the 7 cities of the Revelation. He later was in Ephesus (where he lived with Mary, Jesus’ mother):

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. . . .I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (Revelation 1:1-2; 9-11)

While in Pergamum/Pergamos (Bergama, the modern day term, one of the seven cities), I saw a temple there dedicated to the Emperor Trajan whom Pliny had written to (an historical reference from the time period) in what to do about the Christians (mentioned below).

There are external sources confirming certain details written about in the New Testament (the same can’t be said for the BOM) so it is not about guessing but on the trustworthiness of historical testimony (contemporaries of Christians of the time period):

Tactitus (Roman historian) (Relating the history of the infamous Nero, emperor 54-58)-

he says that Nero, accused of starting major fires in Rome) substituted as culprits, and punished with the utmost refinements of cruelty, a class of men loathed for their vices, whom the crowd styled Christians. Christus the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, . . .and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not only in Judea, the home of the disgrace, but in the capital itself, where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find a vogue. First, then, the confessed members of the sect were arrested; next, on their own disclosures, vast numbers were convicted, not so much on the count of arson as for hatred of the human race. And derision accompanied their end: they were covered with wild beasts’ skins and torn to death by dogs; or they were fastened on crosses, and, when daylight failed, were burned to serve as lamps by night.(Tacitus, The Annals, pp. xv-xliv., trans. John Jackson, Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard Univ. Press, 1937)

Pliny the Younger (Governor of Asia Minor) (He wrote his emperor, Trajan (98-117) on how to deal with the Christians)-

They affirmed, however, the whole of their guilt or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind. . . .I judged it so much the more necessary to extract the real truth with the assistance of torture, from the female slaves, who were styled deaconesses; but I could discover nothing more than depraved and excessive superstition.(Pliny, Letters, trans. W. Melmoth and rev. W.M.L. Hutchinson, Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard Univ. Press, 1947) Book X, xcvi.

Trajan (Roman Emperor) (His response to Pliny the Younger was not to search out Christians but to punish any who had been properly indicted)-

No search shall be made for these people; when they are denounced and found guilty, they must be punished; with the restriction, however, that when the party denies himself to be a Christian, and shall give proof that he is not (that is by adoring our gods) he shall be pardoned on the ground of repentance even though he may have formerly incurred suspicions. Information without the accusor’s name subscribed must not be admitted in evidence against anyone as it is introducing a very dangerous precedent, and by no means agreeable to the spirit of the age. (Pliny, Letters, trans. W. Melmoth and rev. W.M.L. Hutchinson, Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard Univ. Press, 1947) Book X, xcvii.

The above describes accurately what Christians themselves were doing and writing about which is historical data validated. This goes to the spiritual reality behind the physical as God is spirit and requires us physical beings (with a spirit) to believe Him and accept Jesus’ sacrifice (physical death which involves the separating of the spirit from the body) to escape eternal punishment which is what salvation is from:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in h***. (Matthew 10:28)

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:41-46)

Historical evidence does matter (the spiritual evidence that goes along with it doesn’t happen in a vacuum).

Worship is directed toward God, not the sacrifice itself (which was once for all on the cross). The God of Revelation, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the Godhead in which the Son became a man to suffer death as the perfect “Lamb of God” in which John announced (this became a physical act of Jesus dying while hanging on the cross around 33 A.D.):

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. (John 1:29-32)

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20)

The Christian message is to believe in Jesus and be reconciled to God. That is why we tell people the Good News about Jesus. The person hearing the message has the opportunity to believe or reject it, not to rewrite the demands of God He has set which is what Mormonism does (with the temple and all that goes with it).

It is the Holy Spirit that will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and the coming judgment:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11)

I’ve also been to Palmyra, New York, where the BofM supposedly was dug up (Hill Cumorah). I didn’t see the corresponding evidence there. The claim of Muhammad and the Qur’an came way before Joseph Smith but like him, Joseph becomes a broken record with many others:

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-eight)

The Prophet being talked about is Jesus:

For Moses truly said to the fathers, “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you”. (Acts 3:22)

The Islamic/Mormon claim is that God chose Mohammad/Joseph as His Messenger/Prophet (they are both absolutely incompatible with Christianity):

Islam- Thus at the age of forty Muhammad was living a serene life, surrounded by affection, respected by all, and could have gone on living happily the rest of his life. The mystical experience in the hill of Hirra', however, interrupted it all. He ran from the cave and threw himself over a precipice when suddenly He saw Gabriel “in the form of a man, with his feet astride the horizon.” In the stress of the great emotion caused by the vision, His face covered with sweat, Muhammad was seized with a violent shuddering and lay unconscious for some time (World Order, Fall 1980/Winter 1981, p.11).

Muhammad (PBUH) used to visit the cave (ghar) of Hira frequently for spiritual meditation. . . .The first revelation had descended on Muhammad (PBUH) through the angel Jibril (Gabriel). In this way Muhammad (PBUH) overcome with fear, hurried home and related to his beloved Khadija all that had happened. She comforted him assuring him that what he had received was true revelation from Allah. . . .The first revelation was shortly followed by a second one, which came to Muhammad (PBUH) when he was shivering and had been covered by a mantle at home. The command was: ‘O thou enveloped in thy cloak, Arise and warn! Thy Lord magnify’. . .(Qur'an 74:1-3). Muhammad (PBUH), through Allah’s Word, had been chosen to spread His message (Islam and Christianity, p.41).

The Qur’an testifies that there has been earlier revelation before it. It says: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, for a guidance to mankind (Qur’an 3:3-4a). . . .Therefore, the Qur’an, as the final revelation, is the perfection and culmination of all the truth contained in the earlier Scriptures (Revelations). . . .The purpose of the Qur’an is to guard the previous revelations by restoring the eternal truth of Allah. . . .The Qur’an is a unique Book of Divine guidance. The Qur’an is the very Word of Allah. It was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), through the archangel Jibril (Gabriel) from an archetype preserved in the seventh heaven. . . .What is especially surprising is that the Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad who was unlettered (Islam and Christianity, pp.26-27);

. . .Therefore, the Qur'an, as the final revelation, is the perfection and culmination of all the truth contained in the earlier Scriptures (Revelations). . . .The purpose of the Qur'an is to guard the previous revelations by restoring the eternal truth of Allah. . . . (Islam and Christianity, pp.26-27)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints- While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, . . .a personage appeared. . .He. . .said unto me. . .he was a messenger. . .from. . .God. . .name was Moroni. . .commanded me to go to my father and tell him of the vision and commandments which I had received. I obeyed; I returned to my father in the field, and rehearsed the whole matter to him. He replied to me that it was of God, and told me to go and do as commanded by the messenger (POGP, JOSEPH SMITH—HISTORY 1:30, 33, 49, 50)

The Bible sits on the pulpit of hundreds of religious sects. The Book of Mormon, the record of Joseph, verifies and clarifies the Bible. It removes stumbling blocks, it restores many plain and precious things. . . .the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passage of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible. (The Ensign, Nov. 1984, p.8; THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH’S TESTIMONY pamphlet, p.2)

God made Aaron to be mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in his stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it. (History of the Church, Joseph Smith, Vol. 6:319-20)

Every intelligent person under the heavens that does not, when informed, acknowledge that Joseph Smith Jr. is a Prophet of God, is in darkness, and is opposed to us and to Jesus and his kingdom on the earth. (Journal of Discourses, 8:223, Brigham Young)

[jo1952]

They’ve actually been twisted by those who are enemies of God either knowingly or unknowingly (by those who have been deceived):

I was last year in Athens, Greece. Also on the island of Patmos off the west coast of Turkey where John’s Book of Revelation vision took place in a cave there (we were in the cave), and in western Turkey visiting the areas of the 7 cities of the Revelation. He later was in Ephesus (where he lived with Mary, Jesus’ mother):

While in Pergamum/Pergamos (Bergama, the modern day term, one of the seven cities), I saw a temple there dedicated to the Emperor Trajan whom Pliny had written to (an historical reference from the time period) in what to do about the Christians (mentioned below).

There are external sources confirming certain details written about in the New Testament (the same can’t be said for the BOM) so it is not about guessing but on the trustworthiness of historical testimony (contemporaries of Christians of the time period):

The message taught in the Book of Mormon is the same as the message taught in the Bible.

The above describes accurately what Christians themselves were doing and writing about which is historical data validated. This goes to the spiritual reality behind the physical as God is spirit and requires us physical beings (with a spirit) to believe Him and accept Jesus’ sacrifice (physical death which involves the separating of the spirit from the body) to escape eternal punishment which is what salvation is from:

Their physical reality cannot confirm any in-put received spiritually. Spiritual things can only be discerned with the spirit. It is true that our spirit is now housed inside a temple of flesh; this is for the purpose of testing our spirit to see if we will still be obedient to the spiritual realm from which God sends His commandments - to see if we will do His will, and not our own will which tries to govern our spirits with worldly temptations and weaknesses. Because our spirits are bound in their physical body, the choices we make to control our spiritual and physical self are unavoidably manifested in a physical way. So spiritual "out-put" can reflect either a spiritual source or a physical source. Yet our physical "reality" can only manifest a "perception" of what another person believes is the surce of their action. Therefore, actions are not necessarily done within a vacuum.

Historical evidence does matter (the spiritual evidence that goes along with it doesn’t happen in a vacuum).

We do not walk in physical proof. Holy Spirit-to-our-spirit communication happens only spiritually on the earth. He cannot control our physical choices. He can ONLY effect us spiritually. Spiritual "input" does happen within a spiritual vacuum which has nothing to do with the physical world. Out-put is another thing altogether.

Worship is directed toward God, not the sacrifice itself (which was once for all on the cross). The God of Revelation, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the Godhead in which the Son became a man to suffer death as the perfect “Lamb of God” in which John announced (this became a physical act of Jesus dying while hanging on the cross around 33 A.D.):

Yes, Jesus suffered physically and ultimately suffered physcial death of His physical body. This was His personal sacrifice for our sins, in accordance with following the will of His Father. Jesus' baptism is the water witness of what we need to do. Jesus' innocent blood is a witness which cries to Father that His was a pure and guiltless sacrifice. The Holy Ghost is the earthly, more sure witness to our spirit of who Jesus is, as well as the one Being of the Godhead chosen for the purpose of teaching Truth on the earth. Not even Jesus' or Father's teachings being taught on the earth have the power to witness to our spirit what the Holy Ghost witnesses to us. Thus it is that we can blaspheme Jesus and Father; but cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

The Christian message is to believe in Jesus and be reconciled to God. That is why we tell people the Good News about Jesus. The person hearing the message has the opportunity to believe or reject it, not to rewrite the demands of God He has set which is what Mormonism does (with the temple and all that goes with it).

It is the Holy Spirit that will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and the coming judgment:

It is my experience with too many orthodox Christians that they are the ones who have added many many criteria to merely having faith and believing in Christ in order to be saved - not the other way around. In fact, there is exclusivity practiced amongst orthodox Christendom which closes the gates of Heaven to all who do not agree with them (just like the Pharisees did). The biggest point of exclusion is the trinity theory. If a person will not accept this theory of man, then they are not even considered Christian in the first place. In this modern day and age, this makes it look like orthodoxy has cleaned up their act inasmuch as they no longer burn heretics at the stake. They merely exclude heretics from their numbers making it unnecessary to burn anyone.

As far as the Temples go - they do not exclude anyone from the Celestial Kingdom. Each individual still does that. In fact, the work being done there is to ensure that every one who ever lived has all the necessary ordinances performed so that, should a person be worthy and wants to accept the work done on their behalf, they may do so. The labor done in the Temples is a labor of love being accomplished for all of mankind. Indeed, unlike orthodox Christianity, man is not doomed to an all or nothing eternity of h*** or exaltation. The LDS teach that exaltation is eternal life being able to be in the most High God's presence; whereas other levels of still Heaven, are places where most of the rest of us will be. Very few, if any, will actually suffer as a son of perdition.

As far as your complaint that this is extra biblical is easily explained by Jesus Himself:

John 16:12-13

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I’ve also been to Palmyra, New York, where the BofM supposedly was dug up (Hill Cumorah). I didn’t see the corresponding evidence there. The claim of Muhammad and the Qur’an came way before Joseph Smith but like him, Joseph becomes a broken record with many others:

You seem to believe that an all merciful God who is not a respector of persons, has only always spoken with the children of Israel. I would remind you that Adam was not a Jew; Job was not a Jew, Noah was not a Jew. Even when the God of Abraham covenanted with Abraham (which was AFTER Ishmael had already left Abraham's household), it was not until Jacob that Jacob was also know as Israel. Therefore, for the most part, the Bible is the lineage of Jesus. Since Jesus is the Savior of ALL mankind - not just the House of Israel - it is Jesus's lineage Father made sure we had. However, I would offer that just because the Bible represents mostly the lineage of Jesus, I could never imagine that God abandoned Noah, or those who went everywhere else upon the face of the earth at the time of the Tower of Babel and the confounding of the languages. This would indicate that God changed, and His focus was now to ONLY the children of Israel and those Gentiles who are grafted into the Tree of Faith - IOW, God would have become a respector of persons.

Acts 2:17 (emphasis added)

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

See how God's Spirit will be poured out upon ALL FLESH! Do you think God is excluding anybody here like the orthodox Christians do?

Just some thoughts....

Regards,

jo

[Franktalk]

The problem with evidence is it is subjective and may not be found yet if at all. Much of the current artifacts of Christianity have been found in the last couple of hundred years. Does that mean that those who lived three hundred years ago should have no faith? Should we pick and chose which sections of scripture to believe based on what we have found to date? When you start to mix evidence with scripture you go down a path of the world. You treat scripture as a scientific investigation. But science does not allow supernatural events. Do we even know if a supernatural event leaves any evidence? I think we do. The entire universe came from a supernatural event. What more proof can one desire?

Five hundred years ago much of the early Bible was considered a fable. There was no evidence of the Assyrians or many of the places mentioned in early Biblical history. Scholars made a name for them self by chopping up scripture and stating with certainty that much of early scripture was in fact made up. This is exactly what is going on today with the BoM. By not having a place to walk to and touch many will not believe just like Thomas. But is this the way we are to come to faith in the Word of God? Are we to hold our faith until we find proof? You do know how silly that sounds. Faith is the leap without the proof. And what of proof. If we find an island where someone declared there was an island does that mean that what they wrote on the island is truth? Just how do you make that connection? If I go to Jerusalem and touch a wall does that mean Jesus walked the streets? If fig trees are mentioned in the Bible do I believe in scripture because I buy a fig bar? Just where does this proof have the power to launch someone to faith? Does someone have 95% faith but seeing a finger bone of Peter give me that missing 5%? Oh please that makes no sense.

I have no problem with people searching for artifacts from the Biblical era. I think it is great. But my faith does not rest in what they find. If someone found a bowl with Jesus praying before Satan does that mean it happened? Don't you see how resting on the next find can be a stumbling block? If someone says they came to faith from an examination of artifacts then they have no faith. They instead have man inspired knowledge of Biblical history. They stand on artifacts not faith. My faith is more solid than any stone in Jerusalem. My faith can't be broken like a pot. No one can steal my faith away from a museum. My faith does not decay with time. My faith is not translated by scholars for the consumption of the masses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrbBuY5djyI

Here is an interpretation of the past artifacts showing that aliens made man. It must be true because the history channel says so.

Just who is the witness? For me it is the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost confirmed the Gospel for me. All of the artifacts, all the scholars, and all the documentaries mean nothing. Literally nothing.

[coolrok7]

Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:29-30)

For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope. (Romans 15:4)

Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, . . . (Acts 17:11-12a)

Going back to post #42, when I first answered your statement here jo, the first part and last part is fine, I would take issue with the in between (the words recorded in the Bible are Scripture but not all so-called “Scripture” is from God. Scripture from God was written for our instruction as stated above):

. . .The Bible teaches us it is the Spirit (ie, the Holy Ghost) who gives witness to our spirit on the earth; not the words that are in the Bible. The words in the Bible which record the testimonies of men who saw and knew Christ in the flesh do not have the power to witness to our spirit. They can point to Christ and encourage us to desire to believe in Christ - which leads to having faith; but on the earth it is the Holy Ghost who has the power of God to witness to our spirit.

Regards,

jo

Their words do have the power to witness to us the Holy Spirit as He has inspired the writing and inspires belief in the words recorded in the Bible:

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:16-21)

I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (John 17:14-20)

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:63-65)

[HeatherAnn]

They’ve actually been twisted by those who are enemies of God either knowingly or unknowingly (by those who have been deceived):

Yeah, I had no idea how true that was until I read about how the bible came to be.

I was last year in Athens, Greece. Also on the island of Patmos off the west coast of Turkey where John’s Book of Revelation vision took place in a cave there (we were in the cave), and in western Turkey visiting the areas of the 7 cities of the Revelation. He later was in Ephesus (where he lived with Mary, Jesus’ mother):

What a great opportunity!

While in Pergamum/Pergamos (Bergama, the modern day term, one of the seven cities), I saw a temple there dedicated to the Emperor Trajan whom Pliny had written to (an historical reference from the time period) in what to do about the Christians (mentioned below).

There are external sources confirming certain details written about in the New Testament (the same can’t be said for the BOM) so it is not about guessing but on the trustworthiness of historical testimony (contemporaries of Christians of the time period):

The above describes accurately what Christians themselves were doing and writing about which is historical data validated. This goes to the spiritual reality behind the physical as God is spirit and requires us physical beings (with a spirit) to believe Him and accept Jesus’ sacrifice (physical death which involves the separating of the spirit from the body) to escape eternal punishment which is what salvation is from:

Historical evidence does matter (the spiritual evidence that goes along with it doesn’t happen in a vacuum).

Why does history matter?

And how do you decide what constitutes evidence?

Do you think spiritual leaders who originally wrote scriptures would be more concerned with history or spirituality?

I find it ironic that some laugh at people who claim psychic powers, yet then turn to scriptures to fortell the future. What do you think?

Worship is directed toward God, not the sacrifice itself (which was once for all on the cross). The God of Revelation, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the Godhead in which the Son became a man to suffer death as the perfect “Lamb of God” in which John announced (this became a physical act of Jesus dying while hanging on the cross around 33 A.D.):

The Christian message is to believe in Jesus and be reconciled to God. That is why we tell people the Good News about Jesus. The person hearing the message has the opportunity to believe or reject it, not to rewrite the demands of God He has set which is what Mormonism does (with the temple and all that goes with it).

It is the Holy Spirit that will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and the coming judgment:

I like that you mentioned worship toward God, not the sacrifice itself.

Why would God require death by human sacrifice, when God commanded not to kill?

How can anyone reconcile us to God?

Who/What is God?

The holy spirit is within us. You don't feel the spirit in any external source, only within, as Jesus explained, "The kingdom of God is within you." -Luke 17

Mormonism isn't the only one who has rewritten &/or added to God's directions. There are THOUSANDS of bible versions, & that's just in English!

The Islamic/Mormon claim is that God chose Mohammad/Joseph as His Messenger/Prophet (they are both absolutely incompatible with Christianity):

Actually, in many ways, they are MORE compatible with Christianity.

Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, a good leader & he was.

Joseph Smith, Emma & other Mormons directly apply Jesus' teachings more than many other groups...

I'd say the most significant contribution Joseph Smith made was teaching what Jesus intended... to look internally. He taught & lived, "The kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17) He taught that the truth will carve itself, especially through personal revelation.

He also taught of eternal progression... some could see it as reincarnation... or simply pre-existence & after-life. He expanded on what Jesus taught of "many mansions" - which applies in life as well as beyond. Whether you've been focusing on negativity or positivity, that's what you'll resonate with.

He taught beautiful symbolism in temple ceremonies. The idea that Eve had a CHOICE to take of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good & evil. And that she had the vision & perspective to choose according to what was best... And that to be able to discern good & evil is to be as God - is progressive even for now, let alone in the 1800s!

Also - the idea that we can become as God - is such a lofty goal - unacheivable in this life - but something to inspire & motivate! Who even dared say that! Indeed, I've been ridiculed for such a belief, yet it's what Jesus was trying to teach. If the kingdom of God is within us, & if God is all - we are part of God. Yet, I acknowledge that we are also very much part ego - so a part of us will never "arrive" - but always be trying to. Joseph gave hope & vision for this trying to harmonize our narcassistic ego with our divine essence.

Joseph taught that there are spiritual ways of acquiring knowledge, whether you believe he was inspired or not. Most Christians have limited themselves to what is observable... in the bible, science etc. Yet Jesus taught, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation." (Luke 17) Similarly, Joseph was brave enough to look within & share what he found. He even showed the possibility of psychic abilities - as Jesus had, & as I believe, we all are capable of.

One aspect I'm particularly interested in, which Joseph touched on, is that of healing. Jesus, of course was a healer & Joseph was also known to heal.

Like Jesus, Joseph taught tollerance to other religions, with the 11th article of faith yet he also brought people together in unity. Unfortunately, because of their unique beliefs & questionable life-styles, Mormons established a habit of isolating themselves, being cliquish & were persecuted for that... so the 11th article of faith is more just an ideal, not so much lived in some areas, especially where the religion predominates. Also, unfortunately sometimes such unity/following the prophet triumphed over seeking personal revelation & loving. Although you rarely hear Mormons bashing other religions.

Emma, with Joseph's support, established the first major women's organization - the Relief Society & put the commandment to love one-another in action.

Joseph taught the importance of families, which is the foundation of society. Of course, some things Joseph taught better than lived (Nobdy is perfect - including prophets/leaders). Also, some of his better teachings were twisted or ignored over the years.

Excellent quotes by Joseph Smith...

*"One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth let it comes from whence it may."

*"We cannot be saved until we have risen above all our enemies, not the least of which is ignorance."

*"Man is that he might have joy!"

Edited July 1, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[jo1952]

Going back to post #42, when I first answered your statement here jo, the first part and last part is fine, I would take issue with the in between (the words recorded in the Bible are Scripture but not all so-called “Scripture” is from God. Scripture from God was written for our instruction as stated above):

Their words do have the power to witness to us the Holy Spirit as He has inspired the writing and inspires belief in the words recorded in the Bible:

Here again is what I said:

. . .The Bible teaches us it is the Spirit (ie, the Holy Ghost) who gives witness to our spirit on the earth; not the words that are in the Bible. The words in the Bible which record the testimonies of men who saw and knew Christ in the flesh do not have the power to witness to our spirit. They can point to Christ and encourage us to desire to believe in Christ - which leads to having faith; but on the earth it is the Holy Ghost who has the power of God to witness to our spirit.

My words do not say that the words in the Bible were not inspired. However, there is a big difference between reading the words in the Bible, or having someone else read those words (sharing the words), and the person doing the listening to "hear" those words WITH the power of the Holy Ghost. Unless a person is persuaded to BELIEVE those words, the Holy Ghost cannot give that person the witness that the words are true. So, yes, when the words were being written or spoken by the Apostles, the Apostles were doing so with the power of the Holy Ghost as their own personal source of inspiration because the Holy Ghost was witnessing to them. Yet, anyone receiving their words must "hear" them with that same power and witness; otherwise, they have ears that do not hear; or they have eyes that do not see.

For this reason, it is an error for someone teaching the Gospel message to think that the person who heard their words or saw their message have automatically been able to hear or see with the Holy Ghost giving them a personal witness. The listener must first believe before they receive that witness themselves. To take this further, to accuse a listener that they have rejected the Holy Ghost just because the deliverer of the message has given their message and the listener did not believe them, is wrong. A listener cannot reject the Holy Ghost until AFTER they have received a personal witness from the Holy Ghost. This is different from listening to a message which the giver was inspired by the Holy Ghost to give. IOW, "he that has ears" can hear IF they believe; because the Holy Ghost can then witness to the listener. Likewise, "he that eyes" can see IF they believe; because the Holy Ghost can then witness to the seer.

The above actually answers the question which I posed on this thread about what the difference was between those Jews who recognized Christ, versus the Jews who did not recognize Christ. Those who recognized Christ BELIEVED and were witnessed to by the Holy Ghost of Christ's true identity. Those who did not believe received no witness; thus, they did not recognize Christ. All this is heaped upon the fact that when Jesus entered Jerusalem on the day we now call Palm Sunday, that the prophecy of Daniel was being fulfilled. The people failed to recognize this fulfillment. This point is food for another discussion.

Overall, the reason I am making such a big deal over this is because many orthodox Christians think that the majority of the Jews rejected the Holy Ghost. They also think that any Gentile who does not believe in Christ after they have been given the Gospel message has also rejected the Holy Ghost. However, the receiver who has chosen not to believe in Christ has not rejected the Holy Ghost, since the Holy Ghost will only give them a personal witness AFTER they believe. This helps explain why we continue to give the Gospel message to someone who has already received it who does not yet believe. Each sharing plants a seed which may someday take root. At the moment someone finally decides to believe the Gospel message, that seed does take root; and the Holy Ghost will witness the truth to that person. A person cannot fall away until after they have believed. Only after a person believes does he/she receive the witness of the Holy Ghost. Should a person then fall away, that is when they are in danger of rejecting the Holy Ghost.

Regards,

jo

Edited July 2, 2011 by jo1952

[coolrok7]

The thread op was asking concerning evidence that would cause an orthodox Christian to denounce Jesus Christ. The person of Jesus Christ (Jesus of Nazareth) has a specific historical context. I answered based on the evidence of His existence in history. What I believe/have faith in is what I base my faith on, the “Word of God”, Jesus Christ of the historical Christian faith. Faith in brief is referred to this way:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. (Hebrews 11:1-3)

Its foundation is the resurrection of Jesus from the dead physically in a glorified human physical form He received in the incarnation in which He became God in the flesh (not the Father/Holy Spirit).

God (Jesus as one of the Godhead) before the incarnation is a spiritual being without being physical in nature as we are. He became physical to suffer death to make atonement for our collective human sin since Adam and Eve disobeying God’s command.

While He died for everyone, only those who come to faith and believe will be saved. Judgment will include every one of all time periods being either sheep or goats as stated below. To those who never heard of Jesus will be judged by Him based on what they know, not what they don’t (Romans 1&2).

Lucifer, who became Satan/the devil was a fallen angelic spiritual being, was responsible for getting Eve to listen to his lies. Adam in turn was persuaded in being disobedient to God as well. In Genesis it is recorded the punishment given to all three.

History afterward is the bringing to pass God’s remedy for working out His ultimate design for humans/angelic beings for eternity in which His declared love for the world is fulfilled. The end result being revealed on Judgment Day:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: . . .Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . .And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46)

There is also a Biblical warning in this regard (Mormons don’t ever seem to think this is a possibility that the spirit they are “feeling’ could be lying to them). The way to test the messenger is by the doctrine that is brought (the fruit of a false prophet in this case as opposed to the fruit of a Biblical prophet, being taught in relation to Biblical doctrine in context/totality):

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. . . .We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:1,6)

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:15-20)

Note the following statements from Mormon General Authorities concerning the “Fall” in which they have it wrong as contrasted with Biblical teaching:

Adam fell, but he fell in the right direction. . .toward the goal. . .he fell upward. (Sterling W. Sill)

The devil told the truth. . .I do not blame Mother Eve. I would not have had her miss eating the forbidden fruit for anything in the world. . . .They must pass through the same ordeal as the Gods, that they may know good from evil. . . . (Brigham Young))

The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise. . .I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin. . . .We can hardly look upon anything resulting in such benefits as being a sin. . . . (Joseph Fielding Smith)

This is also reflected in a more modern LDS Sunday School lesson entitled, “The Fall of Adam and Eve.” The following is stated (In a Note to the teacher):

The decision of Adam and Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit was not a sin, as it is sometimes considered by other Christian Churches. It was a transgression—an act that was formally prohibited but not inherently wrong. (see Dallin Oaks, in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 98; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 73). The fall was necessary for us to progress toward exaltation. . . .

The Bible in fact teaches it was sin that brought death into the world and separation from God (the goal of the Gospel is not exaltation to godhood but salvation from sin/eternal punishment:

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. (1 John 3:4)

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:4-eight)

[Franktalk]

There is also a Biblical warning in this regard (Mormons don’t ever seem to think this is a possibility that the spirit they are “feeling’ could be lying to them). The way to test the messenger is by the doctrine that is brought (the fruit of a false prophet in this case as opposed to the fruit of a Biblical prophet, being taught in relation to Biblical doctrine in context/totality):

You don't know the Bible very well at all. This is why you are so confused. Just how does one test a spirit to see if it is from God?

1 John 4

1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Much of scripture is not taught by the Holy Ghost. It is for man to stumble. But we do have a core of the Gospel witnessed by the Holy Ghost. Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father. He took on human form and died for our sins. After three days He did rise from the dead. He sits at the right hand of the Father. This is the Jesus that I know and love. Yet you say the spirit I listen to is lying? Please tell me what part of the core Gospel do I have wrong? It is obvious I have nothing wrong.

Scripture goes on to describe the witness for us.

1 John 5:7-8

King James Version (KJV)

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Here we can see that the Word is a witness in heaven. But on earth the Word is not the witness but the Holy Ghost. While in the flesh we will be subject to the weakness of the flesh and we will not be able to know the correct interpretation of scripture. We need help from God to discern the Word. But the Holy Ghost will bear witness and is not a teacher. It is the pride of man which twists the message of God. What you have done is used your interpretation of the Bible to judge the Spirit which talks to my spirit. You have declared that Spirit a liar. Yet that Spirit has confirmed the core Gospel. Are you sure that the Spirit which talks to me is a liar?

[coolrok7]

(Franktalk) You don't know the Bible very well at all. This is why you are so confused. Just how does one test a spirit to see if it is from God? . . . Much of scripture is not taught by the Holy Ghost. It is for man to stumble. But we do have a core of the Gospel witnessed by the Holy Ghost. . . . You have declared that Spirit a liar. Yet that Spirit has confirmed the core Gospel. Are you sure that the Spirit which talks to me is a liar?

The Mormon gospel (the fruit of Mormonism) ultimately ends up denying the Biblical Gospel. In the context of lying spirits, it is a Biblical teaching in which warnings are given and we are taught to beware of by Jesus Himself:

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:15-20)

In my perspective I’ve been a believer in God since a young age (since at least 1958), in your vernacular, “witnessed by the Holy Ghost”, before I knew anything of Mormonism being very familiar with the Bible and what it said concerning the world of life, Jesus.

The essence of Christianity is based on a fallen creation (due to the lie of Satan) in which one of the Godhead in the Trinity (Jesus as the Son of God) becomes a man in order to rescue a condemned world of humanity created for God’s purpose, eternal life with Him:

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. . . . For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 13-15)

The Trinitarian view of the nature of the Godhead (three persons, one God) of Father, Son, Holy Spirit are the oneness God of Judaism with the idea represented by Jesus in His last command to His disciples (which is not the belief that they are all the same person which is the heretical view known as modalsim), not the same person as is misrepresented in both Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses:

Jesus answered, . . .“HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD” (Mark 12:29)

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20)

“I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (John 17:4-5)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. . . .And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-2, 14)

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phillipians 2:5-11)

Elder: . . .BUT WHAT DO WE LEARN ABOUT GOD FROM THE EXPERIENCE OF JOSEPH SMITH?

Brown: That he has a real body.

Elder: Yes, he does. THE CHURCHES ALSO TAUGHT THAT GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS CHRIST, HIS SON, WERE BOTH THE SAME PERSON. . . . (A UNIFORM SYSTEM FOR TEACHING INVESTIGATORS, Aug. 1961, p.12)

The Oneness of the Father and the Son: There has been much misunderstanding regarding the oft-repeated statement that Jesus and his Father are one. A careful reading of the seventeenth chapter of John should clarify this matter fully. As Jesus was about to be offered up, he prayed unto his Father and thanked him for his apostles, saying, “that they may be one, as we are.” (John 17:11). . .Now it is very apparent that Jesus was not speaking of oneness of personage, but oneness of purpose, . . .(John 17:24). . .Again it is evident that the oneness referred to has no reference to oneness of personage, for if Jesus and his Father were one in person, how absurd to think that Jesus would pray unto himself, . . . (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.22)

If Jesus were the Almighty God, he would not have prayed to himself, would he? Since Jesus prayed to God, . . .the two could not be the same person (You can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p.39)

In reference to 1 John 4:1-4, it is true that Mormonism agrees that Jesus came in the flesh. Mormons end up denying Jesus in a different way than the Gnostics do on this point (in which John was addressing the Gnostic heretical view in the referenced passage). It does though make reference to many false prophets being in the world in opposition to what He as an apostle was teaching.

In essence, Gnostics didn’t believe that a being such as God would have anything to do with the physical creation as matter was considered to be evil and therefore Gnosticism held the correct view that they alone had this secret knowledge that one had to be initiated into in which one eventually escapes this world of evil through this gnosis.

I would hold that Temple Mormonism is modeled after this idea, gaining this supposedly “secret” or “sacred” knowledge.

In Mormonism Jesus is only one of many gods born to heavenly parents and we can become gods too, the essence of their particular heresy. Mary Baker Eddy in Christian Science (one of the mind science groups) is a modern derivative of the heresy of Gnosticism.

Both deny the Trinitarian view of God as well as the many other relatively recent religious movements.

I would also of course disagree with your assessment above (as you don’t really know me). The following Scripture would be a basis in response to your objection (your prerogative to do so):

Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:29-30)

For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope. (Romans 15:4)

Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, . . . (Acts 17:11-12a)

The end result of believing the above (along with many other verses) is eternal life with God in His presence for eternity, not the endless progression of the gods of Mormonism as the result of Joseph Smith’s non-Biblical teachings (although not everything he taught was false).

It is the Mormon contention that one can’t know the truth of God without the additional Mormon so-called “Scripture” and Joseph Smith which in my perspective is not true (but you as a Mormon would of course disagree):

the everlasting gospel could not be discovered through reading the Bible alone. . .this is the only Christian church in the world that did not have to rely upon the Bible for its organization and government. . . (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.40)

There is a spiritual power in the Book of Mormon that is unique to all other scriptures, . . .(The Ensign, Pres. Benson, Sept. 1987, p.78)

Third, how important is the Book of Mormon? Joseph Smith called it “the keystone of our religion.” (History of the Church, 4:461.) “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations,” he said, “and where is our religion? We have none.” (History of the Church, 2:52.). . .(The Ensign, President Ezra Taft Benson, Nov. 1984, p.6)

Elder Bruce R. McConkie stated, “Men can get nearer to the Lord, can have more of the spirit of conversion and conformity in their hearts, can have stronger testimonies, and can gain a better understanding of the doctrines of salvation through the Book of Mormon than they can through Bible. . . .There will be more people saved in the kingdom of God—ten thousand times over—because of the Book of Mormon than there will be because of the Bible.” (Address at Book of Mormon Symposium, Brigham Young University, 18 Aug., 1978.) (The Ensign, Pres. Benson, Nov. 1984, p.7)

THE DIVINE MISSION OF JOSEPH SMITH

CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH

Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an imposter cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures. (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188, 1954 edition)

The Bible (King James Version) is not a product of the Mormon Church. (Their own version of the Bible known as the Joseph Smith Translation- JST, is not based on any verifiable manuscript evidence; the copyright is actually owned by the Reorganized LDS Church now known as the Community of Christ)

I believe the Book of Mormon (in addition to twisting of the Bible in aiding the process of changing the Biblical teaching) is the starting point in specific Mormon scripture where the attempt to usurp the Bible’s exclusive authority as the “Word of God”.

Joseph Smith taught (not the Biblical methodology of truth which is the, “it is written”):

But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. (D&C 9:eight)

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:1-4)

This other method of determining truth in “Mormonism” (seems to be the preferred way) is to ask the investigator during the missionary discussions to pray about the Book of Mormon (there is no Biblical mandate to follow this procedure in connection with James and asking God for wisdom which is the practical application of knowledge which has its own relevance in context which is not the Mormon context):

Read Moroni 10:3-5. If you will read, ponder, and pray sincerely about the Book of Mormon, the Holy Ghost will manifest to you that it is true. (p.5)

I would contend that it is not the Biblical Holy Spirit (Ghost- King James vernacular) witnessing it to a Mormon, given their teaching and how they argue their points of doctrine.

If you set a railroad track off on one side by 2 degrees it’s not so critical until you move down the track where the error becomes destructive to the train riding on it- in religion, it becomes the advancement of false teaching. This is what the additional Mormon and all other purported “scripture” do in the long run.