Fig-bearing Thistle Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) Mormons are often criticized that their beliefs are structured in such a way that no tangible evidence can prove them wrong. As an LDS believer, I think there is some truth to that, and I'm thankful for it.But I am wondering about the reverse question:What type of evidence would cause an orthodox Christian to denounce Jesus Christ or the Bible?Would it most likely have to relate to a new historical, scholarly, or archaeological discovery concerning the Bible?(I meant to use a small 'o' in orthodox in the title of the thread, but can't change it now. Edited June 17, 2011 by Fig-bearing Thistle Link to comment
Walden Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Mormons are often criticized that their beliefs are structured in such a way that no tangible evidence can prove them wrong. As an LDS believer, I think there is some truth to that, and I'm thankful for it.But I am wondering about the reverse question:What type of evidence would cause an orthodox Christian to denounce Jesus Christ or the Bible?Would it most likely have to relate to a new historical, scholarly, or archaeological discovery concerning the Bible?(I meant to use a small 'o' in orthodox in the title of the thread, but can't change it now.I don't know that mormons are specifically singled-out for a belief structure which is immune to evidence.....maybe, being a mormon, you see it that way.Religion in general, whether it be orthodox, catholicism, islam, evangelicalism, etc. is structured in such a manner that tangible evidence cannot prove them wrong in the mind of a believer. How does one go about disproving a belief, particularly when much of that belief is based in "spiritual", "mystical" or intangible experience, and sometimes little else. I mean, how many times does one hear a believer answer a logical conundrum regarding their belief system as follows: "I don't know the answer/it doesn't make sense/it is not logical.....but I have faith that god will sort it all out in the end." How does one disprove that rationale? Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) Duplicate - can be deleted Edited June 17, 2011 by Avatar4321 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I would hope that no one, Orthodox or otherwise, would denounce the Lord Jesus Christ or the Holy Bible for any reason. Link to comment
KevinG Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 The "evidence" for falling away from one's faith is often not the only or underlying reason but the final justification for falling away. Most people who find evidence compelling have other underlying reasons. Not always sin, sometimes it is lack of support from other members, family dysfunction that they can't reconcile with the gospel as taught, personal tragedy or fatigue in keeping up with the obligations that come with practicing the faith...The evidence can be the last straw or the excuse to let go of the difficultiesor dissonance they face as a member. 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 In my Most Humble Opinion, those who search for scientific evidence for religious claims are simply barking up the wrong tree and don't understand the nature of religious truthReligion is not science. It seems simple enough to me. One teaches truths that all can verify and observe empirically, the other gives one's life meaning.What gives my life meaning cannot be verified by anyone else empirically. It would be like seeing someone walking down the street and saying "AHA! I can tell by your face you are a terrorist!" (empirical observation of what gives that person's life meaning)What scientific observation would change a terrorist's mind? If you can answer that one- please contact the CIA immediately- they would like very much to talk to you.It's easy to say that religious beliefs rest on scientific evidence until you understand that other kinds of beliefs similar to religion or based on religion have no relation to science whatsoever. Link to comment
jo1952 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) I think Fig-bearing Thistle has asked an excellent and legitimate question. I have heard many orthodox Christians tell me that if any physical evidence (acceptable to them as physical evidence) was found which would support the Book of Mormon, they would dump all of their anti-LDS rhetoric which they now swear by, and would join the Church. I find this extremely interesting in that they would instantly give up the doctrinal differences which cause them to consider the LDS Church a non-Christian organization because physical "evidence" had been found to support the BoM. This means they would also abandon what they now believe the Holy Ghost has taught them about the heresies of Joseph Smith as well as how the Holy Ghost has already told them that the Book of Mormon is entirely made up.In this line of thought, I have heard many orthodox Christians say that they "decided" to believe what the Bible was teaching because, according to their standard of what they considered "truth" was, enough physical evidence for some of the Bible has been established. IOW, they believe because they believe the physical evidence is strong enough to allow them to accept that the Bible is the Word of God; not because they have discerned the witness of the Holy Ghost.Regards,jo Edited June 17, 2011 by jo1952 Link to comment
Franktalk Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 The future falling away of Christians when the antichrist is here will be those who don't really know scripture and do believe their own eyes. Faith is beyond the senses. Those who live in the senses will reject scripture and follow the power of the antichrist.Many of the orthodox believe they have traceable evidence back to Christ. They see the Bible as a historical book that has artifacts which support it. They believe that by tracing back the manuscripts and the letters that they have a data trail just like a data trail that science uses for geologic processes and evolution. In fact many orthodox are strong believers in evolution and support the gap theory of the Bible so to reconcile the Bible and science. They actually place science as the real truth and twist the Bible to conform to the ideas of theoretical science.Of course I will be stoned for saying this but it is the way I feel after posting to orthodox believers for a few years. The orthodox are free to tell me I am wrong and they actually live in faith and do not believe in the ideas of man. I will not hold my breath waiting for that response.There is a path to faith that I believe is clearly laid out in scripture. The first of these is our moral compass. We know inside of us that there are moral truths outside of the creation. This can be felt by us but can not be examined by someone else. Thus no evidence. The second path to faith comes from our observation of the creation itself. It is spiritually made and speaks to our spirit that there is a God. This spiritual communication is again beyond the senses and can not be examined by another. Thus is not evidence. Once we seek God then the Spirit of God will guide us to truth. Using or moral compass we know the Spirit of God from evil spirits that may want to lead us astray. Many orthodox are afraid of any spiritual communication of any type. There are exceptions. Listening to the Spirit of God we are led to scripture in the Bible and the BoM. But the Spirit leads us to many truths that are in addition to scripture. But the Spirit of God is a witness and not a school teacher. So many verses in scripture can be widely interpreted by man. But God in His wisdom has given us a Prophet to keep the main doctrine on tract. But here again many areas of scripture are widely interpreted. This is normal and is a test of our faith.For me the reality of my existence is spiritual. This world I live in and in this body but I am not of this world. So if my eyes see a person raise the dead then I would refer to scripture and find that unless that creature confesses the Gospel of Christ I will walk away from it. I believe in the power of the spirit world. It is not just words to me when it is said:Romans 1:20King James Version (KJV) 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:Everything we see is made. All power comes from the spirit world. And there are evil creatures that have spiritual power that if given permission will use that power to deceive.2 Thessalonians 2:9King James Version (KJV) 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,Since I believe that scripture is the Word of God then I expect a powerful antichrist. But to those who require proof, how will they take a powerful being able to raise the dead and make statues walk? If ones faith is in evidence and they trust their eyes then they set them self up for the fall. The words of the antichrist will say peace as he kills millions. Just how many of us actually live the following:Romans 8:13King James Version (KJV) 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 1 Link to comment
Stargazer Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I guess I would cite Bart Ehrman as a prototype.Ehrman came to lose his faith in Christ (although he does not denounce Jesus, he merely disbelieves) at least primarily due to his researches in the scriptures, to wit, all the evidence suggested to Ehrman that there was no way to be certain what the scriptures actually looked like when they were first penned, and no way to know from the scriptures who Jesus Christ actually was. I've read a couple of his books, and I can see how HE came to the conclusions he came to, but as for me they confirmed at an intellectual level that when Nephi wrote that there were problems with the Bible, he was told this fact by the Lord, who certainly knew would happen. Link to comment
wcdrotar Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Being offended. Milk strippings are very good and people that choose to leave their faiths are that juvenile and short sighted. How grateful I am for living prophets and General Conference! Link to comment
Franktalk Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I think that if someone comes to religion by friendship or happenstance then they are likely to fall away. Without the support of the Holy Ghost I am sure that I would have continued down the path of science. I was based in evidence and theory and always thought people of faith were just weak or stupid. But my world turned upside down when I realized that what is real is not what is seen.Most everything in this universe is being controlled by forces from the spirit world. The big exception is our free will. But again that is spirit based. So what is more real is not something I can touch.Stargazer, have you been following what is going on with the sun? Seems like we may have a Maunder minimum coming. Global warming would be way better for us. Link to comment
Calm Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Most everything in this universe is being controlled by forces from the spirit world. How have you determined this? Link to comment
3DOP Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Mormons are often criticized that their beliefs are structured in such a way that no tangible evidence can prove them wrong. As an LDS believer, I think there is some truth to that, and I'm thankful for it.But I am wondering about the reverse question:What type of evidence would cause an orthodox Christian to denounce Jesus Christ or the Bible?Would it most likely have to relate to a new historical, scholarly, or archaeological discovery concerning the Bible?(I meant to use a small 'o' in orthodox in the title of the thread, but can't change it now.For the record, I don't criticise Mormons because "their beliefs are structured in such a way...etc." I don't think I believe because of evidence. So I don't suppose disbelief has all that much to do with evidence either. Don't get me wrong. I am convinced that the evidence reasonably allows and even point towards what I believe. Maybe that is why I can't imagine any new information that would pose any difficulty. But even if something could cause doubts, why would I "denounce" the good Lord? That is just unthinkable. If, O God forbid, I could think our sweet Jesus were only a fiction, He would be the most wonderful fiction ever created. Does anyone denounce David Copperfield because he is the product of someone's imagination? I would still love Christ even as a fiction, and die for love of wishing He really were true. 1 Link to comment
TAO Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 How have you determined this?Everything physical has a matching spiritual part to it (D&C somewhere, I think). I'm not sure it's 'a majority'... 'large chunk' perhaps instead? =)Best Wishes,TAO Link to comment
Franktalk Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 How have you determined this?This is a good topic for this evidence path. The most obvious direction is in the form of all life. We grow into a form or pattern for the species we are. Yet life forms do not have communication pathways to maintain that pattern as they grow. For instance a fig tree looks like a fig tree yet they are all different. How is it that each part knows how to grow in symmetry. Now some have found chemical trails that determine how cells develop and some of this could in a gross sense determine growth but it can't explain most of it. Like why is it that both of our feet point in front of us. How does one leg know what a front is? It seems that we grow into an already made pattern. A spiritual pattern. For those of us that study the Bible patterns are not something new. Patterns repeat all over scripture and all over nature. Just look at the Fibonacci sequence.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9MwNm0gXd8&feature=relatedThis is a curious topic but provides no proof of evidence. Yet for those who already believe in God it is an expected bit of data that seems to match our expectations of the Creator. He has an ordered house and His creation appears as ordered as well. Link to comment
HeatherAnn Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 FrankTalk, I LOVE that clip about nature in numbers... inspiring!Fig-Bearing-Thistle,In my home, I have pictures of Jesus everywhere. Each Christmas, I've given gifts related to Jesus, or write something about Him. I LOVE Jesus' teachings - they feel so inspiring to me! I've studied, prayed & pondered the atonement for years, determined to discover how I can apply it to my life.I read that a relationship is only as good as its communication... & yet we never communicate with Jesus, but to Heavenly Father, in Jesus' name.I wondered, "What is Jesus saving me from? - And how?"I've been taught He saves us from sin. What's sin? The root is sin is incorrect thought, which translates to feelings & incorrect action.Can anyone save me from my thoughts?Maybe, if I believed - they could. Can anyone save me from my actions once they're done? Can anyone save me from the pain of running full force into a brick wall?No - but they can show empathy & compassion for the pain I experience.I realized that Christ is not Jesus' last name. Christ is a way of being - our goal.Jesus became Christ & showed us how to... from the story of his life from birth - to death - to resurrection... "Except one be born of water & spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)Jesus' birth represents our birth... of water- baptism/amniotic fluid... & spirit - new perspectives & spiritual desire."Without a parable spake he not unto them" (Mark 4:34)His life is a beautiful parable to be applied within, spiritually!IMO, much of Jesus' teachings have been misunderstood by being taken literally instead of spiritually."The kingdom of God cometh not with observation... the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17)Still, belief is powerful!We learn "line upon line, precept upon precept."As a child, we understood as children (taking things concretely/literally) - but as adults, we can put off childish ways & not taking things so literally - instead, realizing spiritual truths in parables.In my Most Humble Opinion, those who search for scientific evidence for religious claims are simply barking up the wrong tree and don't understand the nature of religious truthReligion is not science. It seems simple enough to me. One teaches truths that all can verify and observe empirically, the other gives one's life meaning.MfbukowskiTimestamp,What you wrote here is beautiful!Truth is perspective, & when associated with emotional motivation - beliefs do give life meaning!Everyone wants to believe in something - even atheists. All worship (whether religion, tv, music, sport teams etc.).I also believe that there is a consciousness beyond our minds... When anything (including us) is magnified enough times, what's seen mostly is space.Aprox. 95% of the universe is dark (invisible) energy & matter - known only by its' influence on light etc."Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1) Link to comment
Franktalk Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) Patterns are one thing but they don't point to another spirit world. The best examples I have found that point to a spirit world come from physics and learned behavior in animals.I am sure you have seen the double slit experiment in which light shines in a beam and then strikes a plate with two small slits in it. The light being a wave the photons interact with each other and cause an interference pattern to appear on a plate after the two slits. When we think of waves and their interaction we can almost see the effect and it does make some sense to us. Yet someone went beyond this normal experiment and decided to send one photon at a time down this light path. The idea was to show that the interference pattern was due to interaction of photons. The idea was to show that one photon could not interfere with another wave because there was just one wave. So the expected result on a photographic plate would be a uniform blur of light with no interference bands. Yet after the experiment was done the interference pattern showed up. So just what did the single photon interfere with?Some in science say the photon interfered with photons from a parallel universe. I say they interfered with the spirit world.When Darwin published his theory some said that animals grew in knowledge and this knowledge was passed down generation to generation. This was known as Lamarckism.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LamarckismThis made sense from a evolutionary stand point but many biologist had their doubts. They could not see a mechanism to perform this trick and it seemed each generation did indeed have to learn on its own. Then early in the 1900's some scientist decided to perform an experiment on rats. He would run the rats in a maze to get their food and would record their times. He did this generation after generation of rats. His data showed that the rats did indeed learn from one generation to the next and it appeared that information passed from one generation to the next. This experiment took twenty years to perform. This did not sit well with some scientist. So later in the century another scientist decided to repeat the same experiment. He started with the same species of rats and repeated the same experiment over a twenty year period. But this time he had a control group of rats that never saw the maze. The control group did not breed with the rats that were learning the maze. Then after twenty years he ran the rats that were taught from one generation to the next against the rats that had never seen the maze. Their times were the same. Therefore he disproved Lamarckism. That would be the end of the story if his data did not show some other curious side effects which the scientist did not publish.As it turns out the species of rats were the same from the first experiment to the second experiment yet they were not from the same stock. Yet the rats in the second experiment started running the maze at the same times that the first rats had left off. Then the second set of rats did learn to go faster and faster from generation to generation. But the rats that were not running the maze also acquired the same skill. So the second experiment disproved Lamarckism but uncovered a much more strange thing going on. Of course there was no desire to publish this. Others looking at the raw data uncovered the results.So is this an indication of a spirit world? I think it is. Others feel differently. Edited June 19, 2011 by Franktalk Link to comment
ThomasJoseph Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I don't think that a true Christian can denounce Jesus Christ.Paul wrote don't even listen to an angel who teaches differently. so that covers every base for misleading someone...as far a Mormonism goes, all i can do is attack doctrines and not the faith. Doctrines come and go,ex. there is nothing that suggests men are forms of 'gods' Link to comment
3DOP Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I think Fig-bearing Thistle has asked an excellent and legitimate question. I have heard many orthodox Christians tell me that if any physical evidence (acceptable to them as physical evidence) was found which would support the Book of Mormon, they would dump all of their anti-LDS rhetoric which they now swear by, and would join the Church. I find this extremely interesting in that they would instantly give up the doctrinal differences which cause them to consider the LDS Church a non-Christian organization because physical "evidence" had been found to support the BoM. This means they would also abandon what they now believe the Holy Ghost has taught them about the heresies of Joseph Smith as well as how the Holy Ghost has already told them that the Book of Mormon is entirely made up.In this line of thought, I have heard many orthodox Christians say that they "decided" to believe what the Bible was teaching because, according to their standard of what they considered "truth" was, enough physical evidence for some of the Bible has been established. IOW, they believe because they believe the physical evidence is strong enough to allow them to accept that the Bible is the Word of God; not because they have discerned the witness of the Holy Ghost.Regards,joI hope I don't have any "anti-LDS rhetoric", by which I swear, other than that I believe that Christ is the Head of the Catholic Church. But I wouldn't care about physical evidence for the Book of Mormon. I have to have my doubts as to the "testimonies" of those who claim to you that they would instantly become LDS. I believe they have said it to you. Maybe it was for its shock value, to impress upon you first, how willing they are to change, and secondly, how convinced they are that they are correct. I would not go so far as to say they are lying. But I do not think they know themselves very well if they imagine that they could do such an about face. I do not offer either a willingness to change, nor a claim to superior knowledge, especially about non-Catholic faiths. In regards to my own faith, I have decided who I think followed the Apostles. What they believe, I want to believe, whatever it was. I believe in the physical realities of the Catholic faith, and I probably shouldn't speculate as to what I might do if I could be convinced that they were parables. Who can know themselves so well? Link to comment
Log Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 In my experience, a full understanding of the "problem of evil" has been sufficient for some classical theists to abandon their theism. Link to comment
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) I hope I don't have any "anti-LDS rhetoric", by which I swear, other than that I believe that Christ is the Head of the Catholic Church. But I wouldn't care about physical evidence for the Book of Mormon. I have to have my doubts as to the "testimonies" of those who claim to you that they would instantly become LDS. I believe they have said it to you. Maybe it was for its shock value, to impress upon you first, how willing they are to change, and secondly, how convinced they are that they are correct. I would not go so far as to say they are lying. But I do not think they know themselves very well if they imagine that they could do such an about face. I do not offer either a willingness to change, nor a claim to superior knowledge, especially about non-Catholic faiths. In regards to my own faith, I have decided who I think followed the Apostles. What they believe, I want to believe, whatever it was. I believe in the physical realities of the Catholic faith, and I probably shouldn't speculate as to what I might do if I could be convinced that they were parables. Who can know themselves so well?Yes, 3DOP, on many of these forums I've visited (including this one from time to time), the main purpose seems to be to argue and win a point, rather than express one's honest feelings. I agree with you in that I don't believe anyone who says that they would change their faith over the presentation of tangible evidence. They may do so for a season, but then the sun comes out, the roots are not sufficiently deep, and their short-lived enthusiasm quickly dries up and withers away. Edited June 19, 2011 by Fig-bearing Thistle Link to comment
Flyonthewall Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I don't think there would be any evidence that would cause an Orthodox Christian to denounce Christ.However, from my perspective, they will and have denounced His servants. This can be viewed as a very broad brush so I will narrow it down: this applies only to those that I know of that have denounced Joseph Smith and the prophets that followed.Now the question becomes, can you denounce servants of Christ, without denouncing Christ? Link to comment
Log Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Here, it seems, the parable of the vineyard in Matt 21:33-39 is apropos. Link to comment
coolrok7 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I already have the evidence so there is no evidence that can change it. The orthodox faith is the standard based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ attested to by the eyewitnesses who saw Him post the resurrection and who wrote it down in what became Scripture. The evidence would have been the body of Jesus as he had plenty of enemies that would have gladly showed it if they had it:For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (1 Corinthians 15:20) The above became part of the 27 New Testament books added to the 39 books of the Old Testament which became the sixty-six cannonical books we know as the Bible. The spiritual witness of the Bible is the True Holy Spirit and the inspiration for the above, as opposed to the impersonator Holy Spirit as a lying spiritual witness of false revelation of other so-called Holy Books. The fact that it is real and gives people spiritual witness doesn't mean it is true, only that they have been truly deceived as the result of a counterfeit witness the Bible warns about.To the atheist or agnostic they are given the opportunity to believe just as those of religious faith and they have rejected it to the point of unbelief as the door on the inside is being knocked on by Jesus. They (as well as the ones who have been deceived) need to pay attention and open the door and let Him in as he won't knock the door down. Link to comment
HeatherAnn Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Patterns are one thing but they don't point to another spirit world. The best examples I have found that point to a spirit world come from physics and learned behavior in animals.I am sure you have seen the double slit experiment in which light shines in a beam and then strikes a plate with two small slits in it. The light being a wave the photons interact with each other and cause an interference pattern to appear on a plate after the two slits. When we think of waves and their interaction we can almost see the effect and it does make some sense to us. Yet someone went beyond this normal experiment and decided to send one photon at a time down this light path. The idea was to show that the interference pattern was due to interaction of photons. The idea was to show that one photon could not interfere with another wave because there was just one wave. So the expected result on a photographic plate would be a uniform blur of light with no interference bands. Yet after the experiment was done the interference pattern showed up. So just what did the single photon interfere with?Some in science say the photon interfered with photons from a parallel universe. I say they interfered with the spirit world...Surprising to me, reading that brought tears to my eyes! ha ha I didn't know science could ever bring out such emotion!Thanks for sharing that, FrankTalk.It reminds me of what I've read of dark energy/matter & another experiment... In a petri dish, the nucleus (brain of the cell) was taken out of the cell. The cell still responded to food by moving closer & toxin by moving away.This suggests another level of consciousness, besides that from the brain. Link to comment
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