Why Have A Temple Recommend Process?

[Questing Beast]

The Endowment is to enable us to pass the angels who stand as sentinels (of course, I can't say more, for obvious reasons).

The reasons are not obvious, but the misconceptions are. That line was added to the endowment in 1990, iirc; Here's the full quote: "Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and [h.e. double hockey sticks]." (Journal of Discourses 2:31).

It isn't even a "temple content" violation, since it is in the Journal of Discourses.

Of course, bishops aren't angels, but if the Temple is a piece of the Celestial Realm here on earth, then it stands to reason that sentinels would likewise protect it from unauthorized entry.

The temple is no more a "piece of the celestial realm" than the building and surrounding grounds and mortal people are.

I have no idea where you ever got such a notion as bishops somehow providing protection against "unauthorized entry" of the temples. The interview questions cannot possibly prevent a determined person from obtaining a recommend. All s/he has to do is show worthiness; the belief questions to a dishonest person would be the easiest to fake; just answer yes and no as logic dictates. Word of Wisdom, behavior at home, paying tithing, past history, i.e. the physical requirements are more difficult to fake through, as they all involve other people....

[Garden Girl]

And by the way, tithing is checked. How it is handled by the bishop or otherwise is another matter. As far as I know, there isn't a report in the system that links up temple recommends vs. tithing, but the bishop does look at your contribution at tithing settlement, if you are there or not. He declares to the church if you are a full tithe payer or not, even if you don't meet with him. Again, what he does with that knowledge is his business. As a financial clerk, I don't care one way or the other except to print it out, but the Bishop does see it.

And tell me... how does a bishop know if you are a full tithe payer or not... he simply trusts that you are answering honestly. He may see your tithing record at tithing settlement, but he has no idea if it represents a "full tithe" or not... not without checking your tax returns and the Church certainly does not do that. The bishop and stake president rely on your integrity in answering the questions... if you answer "yes" to the tithing question (or any other of the questions), he does not say "Are you sure?" Or, "prove it." He accepts your answer because he knows that if a person is not truthful, the condemnation is on that person... as it is if a person enters into the temple having lied to receive a recommend.

GG

[bookofmormontruth]

Really? Deborah gets a special pass around here or what?

I explained somewhat of my beliefs on each of the questions, to my bishop. It boils down to believing that a lot more is going on than just Mormonism's explanation of God's work.

When I answered this specific question to the counselor in the stake presidency three days later, I said: "I like the concept, so yes, I believe truth is being restored all the time." Words to that effect, as near as I can recall.

He moved on to the next question. And I answered in a similar manner; implying I accepted that my "yes" answer to the belief questions means "yes" applies to Mormonism.

So when I said "yes" to sustaining the " first presidency and quorum of twelve apostles as prophets, seers and revelators", I did not elaborate. But in my mind (as I had told the bishop earlier), I qualified my affirmation as meaning FOR the Church only.

When the question was asked "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" I said "no". There was no need to elaborate, since the teachings and practices of the LDS faith are not a problem with me; and I would not change my lifestyle, beliefs or behavior even if I were not a member. And I do not associate with or believe in, much less support, any other religious group. Even if I did associate with another religion, or even joined them, none of them would be a problem for the LDS Church, because I would not associate with or join any religion or group that taught and practiced anything contrary to or in opposition to Mormonism.

You can claim that I am dishonest. But I am ready to stand up for my answers. If the bishopric and stake presidency does not ask about my beliefs about how Mormonism fits into the bigger picture, then I won't have to share my opinions on any of that....

If you claim you are not being dishonest. My challenge to you is to print what you just posted and give this left out and manipulative information to your Bishop and let him determine.

And since we know you will never do this, for your own sake - truly learn what the warming means that "G-d will not be mocked" especially in His Holy House.

[Mudcat]

How does your belief square with the notion that no one actually checks to see if those who claim to be full tithe payers actually are? That the questions are honor system based and anyone can lie and get one without paying a cent (and that it's possible to be a full tithe payer without paying a cent as well)?

Also, how does it square with the fact that people are asked to declare whether or not they are full tithe payers at the end of each year, completely outside of any temple recommend interview, making a temple recommend interview unnecessary if declaring tithing was it's only purpose?

I can understand your view of it, but i'm trying to understand it as it relates to the reality of how the church approaches the tithing issue.

Bluebell and the forum posters in general,

I really had no business making the comment. It was out of line. And offer my apologies to the forum, for the cheap shot.

To offer an explanation. A fairly major issue has come up in real life involving my extended LDS family. I don't want to discuss it openly on the forum, but I will express it has left me angry and disappointed about an immediate situation. The situation itself revealed to me an ongoing deception/lack of disclosure that has been in the background for more than two years.

It is a faith related issue, in a round about way, though it's ethically challenging as well. With them being LDS, it has left me with some very negative feelings and views that make it difficult to separate person from belief.

I may take a few steps back from posting for a bit as I try to work through this, as I feel I don't think I can post in an objective way at the moment.

Regardless of my own situation, it doesn't change the fact that comment was an inappropriate channel for some repressed aggression.

Again my sincerest apologies.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Calm]

Again my sincerest apologies.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

I am sorry to hear that such is going on in your life. It is unfortunate when church members lose their ability to balance their commitment to the church with their commitments to friends and family and think one has to compromise the latter for the former. Though at times we need to make sacrifices, it is much better imo if we are open about such and share the reality with others rather than trying to hide because we wish to avoid contention or think we are protecting someone's feelings. Shared sacrifices can become a benefit to all involved instead of a burden.

[bookofmormontruth]

Bluebell and the forum posters in general,

I really had no business making the comment. It was out of line. And offer my apologies to the forum, for the cheap shot.

To offer an explanation. A fairly major issue has come up in real life involving my extended LDS family. I don't want to discuss it openly on the forum, but I will express it has left me angry and disappointed about an immediate situation. The situation itself revealed to me an ongoing deception/lack of disclosure that has been in the background for more than two years.

It is a faith related issue, in a round about way, though it's ethically challenging as well. With them being LDS, it has left me with some very negative feelings and views that make it difficult to separate person from belief.

I may take a few steps back from posting for a bit as I try to work through this, as I feel I don't think I can post in an objective way at the moment.

Regardless of my own situation, it doesn't change the fact that comment was an inappropriate channel for some repressed aggression.

Again my sincerest apologies.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

You are the only legitimate critic on here because you are real.

My two.

[Garden Girl]

Regardless of my own situation, it doesn't change the fact that comment was an inappropriate channel for some repressed aggression.

Again my sincerest apologies.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Hello Mudcat...

I suspected when I read your comment that it didn't sound like your normal self. I'm sorry for whatever has happened that has given rise to your ill feelings.

You know, you have many friends on the board, including me, who would be more than happy to try and help you in any way we can if you want to PM to someone.

You are often in my prayers, and will be now...

GG

[wcdrotar]

I too will be praying for you mudcat. That was completely out of line but I accept your apology as sincere.

[etana]

Bluebell and the forum posters in general,

I really had no business making the comment. It was out of line. And offer my apologies to the forum, for the cheap shot.

To offer an explanation. A fairly major issue has come up in real life involving my extended LDS family. I don't want to discuss it openly on the forum, but I will express it has left me angry and disappointed about an immediate situation. The situation itself revealed to me an ongoing deception/lack of disclosure that has been in the background for more than two years.

It is a faith related issue, in a round about way, though it's ethically challenging as well. With them being LDS, it has left me with some very negative feelings and views that make it difficult to separate person from belief.

I may take a few steps back from posting for a bit as I try to work through this, as I feel I don't think I can post in an objective way at the moment.

Regardless of my own situation, it doesn't change the fact that comment was an inappropriate channel for some repressed aggression.

Again my sincerest apologies.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

From the few posts of yours i have read, i find you to be very sincere and you're certainly not the first person i've heard make that comment. In fact there was a time when i would have made it myself. I see things differently now of course.

Anyway, very classy apology.

[wcdrotar]

Okay we accept your apology now you're back in our good graces. This is a very valuable place to be. It is a good thing to apologize every thread someone takes your beliefs or self-expression as a threat or personal insult.

[TAO]

Bluebell and the forum posters in general,

I really had no business making the comment. It was out of line. And offer my apologies to the forum, for the cheap shot.

To offer an explanation. A fairly major issue has come up in real life involving my extended LDS family. I don't want to discuss it openly on the forum, but I will express it has left me angry and disappointed about an immediate situation. The situation itself revealed to me an ongoing deception/lack of disclosure that has been in the background for more than two years.

It is a faith related issue, in a round about way, though it's ethically challenging as well. With them being LDS, it has left me with some very negative feelings and views that make it difficult to separate person from belief.

I may take a few steps back from posting for a bit as I try to work through this, as I feel I don't think I can post in an objective way at the moment.

Regardless of my own situation, it doesn't change the fact that comment was an inappropriate channel for some repressed aggression.

Again my sincerest apologies.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Ah man... that doesn't sound good at all =0 =(.

I understand the feeling... and the juxtaposition inside your head... I have it often too.

One thing I find that helps me is just relaxing and focusing on Christ for a bit (like what he did for people and things like that) . Maybe, if you feel like it, try it. Only it works best for you =).

Actually, I should take that advice more often myself... too often I forget to do such XP.

But yah, hope things go better for you =).

Best Wishes,

TAO

[Questing Beast]

If you claim you are not being dishonest. My challenge to you is to print what you just posted and give this left out and manipulative information to your Bishop and let him determine.

And since we know you will never do this, for your own sake - truly learn what the warming means that "G-d will not be mocked" especially in His Holy House.

I said all of that and a ton more to my bishop. He said that personal beliefs need to be expressed as "in my opinion" or similar before sharing, so that nobody thinks that I am expounding Church doctrine. I've always done that, when I speak out at all, which is a rare "event" anymore.

As for "mocking God in His Holy House" or anywhere else: that is between "God" and me. But thanks for the "warning" anyway....