Economy Of Sex

[BCSpace]

I prefer to think of this as a Law of Chastity themed thread rather than a sexually themed thread, so please keep it above board and if it's still a problem, feel free to close it down.

What are women to do if they don’t like the current sexual economics?

A fundamental principle of sexual economics is that “sexual activity by females has exchange value, whereas male sexuality does not,” Mr. Baumeister and Ms. Vohs wrote in their 2004 paper.

Thus, women have the power to influence sexual norms were they to use it, Mr. Regnerus said.

“When women collude to restrict men’s sexual access to women, all women tend to benefit,” he said, noting that “if women were more in charge of how their romantic relationships transpired … we would be seeing greater male investment in relationships, more impressive wooing efforts, fewer hookups, fewer premarital sexual partners … shorter cohabitations, more marrying … and more marrying at a slightly earlier age. In other words, the price of sex would be higher. It would cost men more to access it.”

However, he said, “none of these things are occurring today. Not one. The price of sex is pretty low.”

Economy of sex: It’s cheap these days. Men tend to rule marriage market

Thoughts? A good way to reason about "free milk and a cow"?

[urroner]

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Thankfully, I had forgotten this song! Until now.

[Kenngo1969]

I think it'd be kinda cool if someone did a Power Point presentation featuring excerpts from the paper BCSpace quoted with the Georgia Satellites song as the background music! (Sorry, Pa Pa ... )

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I prefer to think of this as a Law of Chastity themed thread rather than a sexually themed thread, so please keep it above board and if it's still a problem, feel free to close it down.

Thoughts? A good way to reason about "free milk and a cow"?

After listening to Dr Laura for a few years, she made similar points that women hold all the cards. Most of the time when men were cheating (not that this is justification for men) that women were holding out on their men for one reason or another. And if they could not get it from their wife most men will go some were else. "Proper care and feeding of husbands", I believe talks more about this stuff.

[Nofear]

Another interesting piece from the same source: Marriage culture to economy, study says. Basically that married households tend to be more economically prosperous and stable than non-married households. If the government encourage marital stability the resulting decrease in welfare and increase in taxes would be of significant positive fiscal impact to the U.S. government.

The citations made me think of Pres. Monson's priesthood session talk in the last general conference where he strongly encourages the Church's young single men to not delay marriage and the married men to stay married. Priesthood Power

[BCSpace]

Another interesting piece from the same source: Marriage culture to economy, study says. Basically that married households tend to be more economically prosperous and stable than non-married households. If the government encourage marital stability the resulting decrease in welfare and increase in taxes would be of significant positive fiscal impact to the U.S. government.

The citations made me think of Pres. Monson's priesthood session talk in the last general conference where he strongly encourages the Church's young single men to not delay marriage and the married men to stay married. Priesthood Power

It's interesting how society keeps rediscovering eternal truths from time to time. I think those "prophets" are often buried though so society loses access access to these truths......except through the Church. It'd also be interesting to see a candidate run who included fostering marriage as part of an economic policy.

[BCSpace]

Thankfully, I had forgotten this song! Until now.

Sorry, I was a teen in the early 80's. The song was often played at Church dances. "Free milk..." freely came to mind. And speaking of milk, the Relief Society in our Ward had an activity last night entitled "How to Become An Eight Cow Woman" which I think entirely misses the point of Johnny Lingo. Instead, I took my wife out to dinner because it was her birthday.

[cinepro]

While my initial response to the article was "duh!", it probably doesn't hurt to actually have it said.

[BCSpace]

While my initial response to the article was "duh!", it probably doesn't hurt to actually have it said.

Everyone knows it innately. But the discussion of it often seems taboo and I think it's worthwhile to see it coming from a pov other than the Church because it helps validate in the minds of others what the Church teaches. Plus we are always looking for reasons other than "God commands it". So here it a useful tool, imho, that helps us explain the doctrine to others and to our children. Now go and warn your neighbor.

[Ahab]

I prefer to think of this as a Law of Chastity themed thread rather than a sexually themed thread, so please keep it above board and if it's still a problem, feel free to close it down.

Thoughts? A good way to reason about "free milk and a cow"?

I don't think there will ever be a day when all women act the same way regarding sex, and to me the best women are and always will be those who act as these people you quoted think they should act.

Kinda like what people say about how most men like to date tramps but marry a virgin, don't cha think?

If there were no tramps, there would only be virgins until they are married.

And btw, men are just as free to act the same way toward sex if they want to, also, and if they did the tramps wouldn't get them either until they are married.

[cinepro]

However, the birth-control pill disconnected the sexual and marriage markets, and now both men and women typically enter the sexual market first.

Another interesting point...

[cinepro]

Ok, can someone explain to me what this means for LDS single adults?

Not all sexual markets are overpopulated by men, Mr. Regnerus said. College campuses and urban areas are often dominated by women, which means that men can and will decide how much — or how little — they will exchange for sex.

Men’s rules of engagement play to their interests of having sex often, with many partners, in a more sexually permissive environment, without romance or commitment, he said.

To be sure, many young women “don’t mind this new sexual economy. Plenty of them like to spend some time in the sex market before moving on to the marriage market,” Mr. Regnerus said.

The problem, he said, is that women can “underestimate the long-term risk of sex-market behavior.”

Although plenty of women dabble in sexual-market relationships and then settle down successfully with life partners, he said, many women are “not witnessing marriage happening on the timetables they prefer and expected.”

This is because, as economist Timothy Reickert has found, power shifts away from women as they move toward their 30s, Mr. Regnerus said. In other words, women have power when they are the minority in the sex market, but they lose power when they drift into the marriage market, where women outnumber men.

“One reason I am doing this research is to help people who want to get married to make it happen,” Mr. Regnerus said.

The new sexual economy is especially disadvantageous to any woman who wants to remain a virgin until her wedding day, he said. These women essentially never enter the sex market, but instead “hold out for the highest price for sex, which is marriage.”

Today, that is a high-risk strategy, Mr. Regnerus explained, using a housing-market analogy: “You can’t just decide that your house is worth $500,000 if everyone else is getting $200,000. … You can try for that price, but it’s unlikely you will get it.”

I would guess that LDS women can "hold out" for marriage as long as LDS men place a similarly high premium on chastity. And as long as Temple Marriage is a goal, this can work.

But I've heard rumors that many LDS single adults are not quite as chaste as I would assume. I've even heard it said on this forum years ago that many LDS single adults are very comfortable with sex before marriage.

So what is the "sex market" like for LDS single adults? And is it related to the problem of LDS single adults delaying marriage?

[Duncan]

Ok, can someone explain to me what this means for LDS single adults?

I would guess that LDS women can "hold out" for marriage as long as LDS men place a similarly high premium on chastity. And as long as Temple Marriage is a goal, this can work.

But I've heard rumors that many LDS single adults are not quite as chaste as I would assume. I've even heard it said on this forum years ago that many LDS single adults are very comfortable with sex before marriage.

So what is the "sex market" like for LDS single adults? And is it related to the problem of LDS single adults delaying marriage?

Well, speaking as a member of that select society let me tell about a little about our organization and I can only give you my anecdotal experiences. There are way more women then men. Men can do whatever they want because women will be in plentiful supply for awhile. Women on the other hand have to be agressive or they could lose out on the men commodity and sometimes, a lot of times from what I have seen settle because there aren't enough guys to go around. The older you get the men go inactive I would say at higher rates then women why that is I have no clue. Women I would say go inactive too but not as much as men. I would love to see stats on when single LDS women go inactive, maybe 31ish? I heard that if you were somehow active in a ysa ward and not married by the time you were 31 and then kicked out by age 31 50% of those people were still active by age 34. So the Church is losing young people but they may come back, hopefully! But to summarize lots of women, not so many men, women settle or not date or marry some dreamboat guy(like me) or they hang around longer in the ysa scene for longer then guys-why though I dunno.

[Thinking]

The weaker sex is actually the stronger sex because of the weakness of the stronger sex for the weaker sex.

[zelder]

Well, speaking as a member of that select society let me tell about a little about our organization and I can only give you my anecdotal experiences. There are way more women then men. Men can do whatever they want because women will be in plentiful supply for awhile. Women on the other hand have to be agressive or they could lose out on the men commodity and sometimes, a lot of times from what I have seen settle because there aren;t enough guys to go around. The older you get the men go inactive I would say at higher rates then women why that is I have no clue. Women I would say go inactive too but not as much as men. I would love to see stats on when single LDS women go inactive, maybe 31ish? I heard that if you were somehow active in a ysa ward and not married by the time you were 31 and then kicked out by age 31 %0 of those people were still active by age 34. So the Church is losing young people but they may come back, hopefully! But to summarize lots of women, not so many men, women settle or not date or marry some dreamboat guy(like me) or they hang around longer in the ysa scene for longer then guys-why though I dunno.

It has always seemed to me that in almost every ward and branch throughtout the world there are more women than men. Perhaps in primary the ratios more even but other than that it's female dominated.

I don't know why either but my opinion is that religion and spirituality is in great measure emotion driven (I'm not knocking spirituality). If you look at Meyers-Briggs Temperment Indicator (MBTI) stats you will find that the majority of women are feelers and would probably be more sensitive to spiritual matters. Its just a thought.

Back to the article though. What does this mean for women? There's going to be a growing number of single women like Sheri Dew in the church.

[Duncan]

It has always seemed to me that in almost every ward and branch throughtout the world there are more women than men. Perhaps in primary the ratios more even but other than that it's female dominated.

I don't know why either but my opinion is that religion and spirituality is in great measure emotion driven (I'm not knocking spirituality). If you look at Meyers-Briggs Temperment Indicator (MBTI) stats you will find that the majority of women are feelers and would probably be more sensitive to spiritual matters. Its just a thought.

Back to the article though. What does this mean for women? There's going to be a growing number of single women like Sheri Dew in the church.

I had a friend of mine quit the Church last year, just a great lady, 38 yrs old, lifelong member, divorced and she up and quit. After she quit she went out and did some things she always was told not to do and I don't know if she feels remorse or not, she says no but I dunno. Now she is getting married to a great guy and I have had hours of discussions with er about singles in the Church and frankly I don't know what to tell her, hold on but for who? where we live and the guys dropping out faster and so marrying a late 30s active guy isn't so much on the radar screen of possibilities and mortality is hopefully a long time to go without companionship, mother's days, lessons in church about families and all the other stuff that you aren't a part of.

[zelder]

Ok, can someone explain to me what this means for LDS single adults?

I would guess that LDS women can "hold out" for marriage as long as LDS men place a similarly high premium on chastity. And as long as Temple Marriage is a goal, this can work.

But I've heard rumors that many LDS single adults are not quite as chaste as I would assume. I've even heard it said on this forum years ago that many LDS single adults are very comfortable with sex before marriage.

So what is the "sex market" like for LDS single adults? And is it related to the problem of LDS single adults delaying marriage?

A lot of young single adults in the church struggle with the law of chastity. Frankly, I don't think a young person in a relationship is healthy if they don't struggle at least a little. However, I don't think active young members are enirely comfortable with breaking the law of chasitiy. The active ones who struggle are trying to conform and wait for marriage if they can. If they are truely comfortable with permarital sex I can't imagine staying very active. Most ative young members are striving for a temple marriage but there are more women than men at church trying to live up to this standard.

[Duncan]

A lot of young single adults in the church struggle with the law of chastity. Frankly, I don't think a young person in a relationship is healthy if they don't struggle at least a little. However, I don't think active young members are enirely comfortable with breaking the law of chasitiy. The active ones who struggle are trying to conform and wait for marriage if they can. If they are truely comfortable with permarital sex I can't imagine staying very active. Most ative young members are striving for a temple marriage but there are more women than men at church trying to live up to this standard.

Some YSA wards are big and so the bigger the ward the easier it is to get lost (same is true for married people wards) so if you have some issue with chastity you could just turn away all together because if you didn't show up to something who would miss you? Plus one person I know who is on church discipline for something thinks they are getting punished for doing something-when you are on discipline or you did do something that you think would warrant discipline what would stop you from going all the way and just throw in the towel altogether

[zelder]

Some YSA wards are big and so the bigger the ward the easier it is to get lost (same is true for married people wards) so if you have some issue with chastity you could just turn away all together because if you didn't show up to something who would miss you? Plus one person I know who is on church discipline for something thinks they are getting punished for doing something-when you are on discipline or you did do something that you think would warrant discipline what would stop you from going all the way and just throw in the towel altogether

What would stop them from going all the way? Well i suppose it might be the difference between being asked to stop taking the sacrement and going to a church court and being disfellowshipped. However, if that person had already gone all the way well at that point they might wonder why stop. But if they continue breaking the law of chasity do they keep going to church? Maybe for a while but I tend to think they will either start mending their ways or quit going to church all together. The cog -dis in that situation would be a little difficult for most people I would think.

[Duncan]

What would stop them from going all the way? Well i suppose it might be the difference between being asked to stop taking the sacrement and going to a church court and being disfellowshipped. However, if that person had already gone all the way well at that point they might wonder why stop. But if they continue breaking the law of chasity do they keep going to church? Maybe for a while but I tend to think they will either start mending their ways or quit going to church all together. The cog -dis in that situation would be a little difficult for most people I would think.

some? most? would think what is the point now and just keep doing whatever until the big whatever and end up feeling like huck and stop attending and in a larger ward would anyone notice them missing? I hope people turn away and start being mended! statiscally, not necessarily for chastity reasons or any sinful ways, they don't- example that recent reorganization of the YSA stakes in Utah, 4600 people contacted only 1100 came back-I don't know how they meausure all of that and people come and go for sure but that is 3500 saying nope

[Acris Venator]

“When women collude to restrict men’s sexual access to women, all women tend to benefit”

Interesting. So where would our YSA women arrive at such a restriction? Given that many of them entered such a restriction at their baptism, and subsequently agreed to it over the course of their adolescence, what organization would then uphold such a decision and encourage continued sanctification of the gate in question?

Would it be Relief Society? And if so, shouldn't that auxiliary also teem with the experienced every week? I.e., those that have already passed the threshold of marriage and who successfully display the blessings of such an economy regarding sex?

[Acris Venator]

example that recent reorganization of the YSA stakes in Utah, 4600 people contacted only 1100 came back-

Just curious, what is your source for this?

[mfbukowski]

And speaking of milk, the Relief Society in our Ward had an activity last night entitled "How to Become An Eight Cow Woman" which I think entirely misses the point of Johnny Lingo.

Very, very, very scary.

[Duncan]

Just curious, what is your source for this?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/51700209-78/lds-single-lake-salt.html.csp

I knew I read it somewhere! haha!

on another site, blog-can't recall now someone pointed out that Elder Ballard was "tempting" people to become leaders, I don't know if that is true or not but if it is I don't want a leader who is tempted by that stuff as per Jesus confrontation with Satan, I want someone who doesn't want to do it!